266 replies to this topic

[Aleithian]

Hey everyone. I thought you all might find this helpful, particularly those who might be struggling to create a "decent" face. The vast majority of human faces share the same basic proportions, and if you follow these general principles in your character creation you'll end up with far more realistic faces and better in-game facial animations. This is a rough guide based on statistical regularities in the human global population. Individual humans often vary somewhat from these general proportions - for instance, my own face doesn't obey (4). Many aspects of appearance are not be determined by these general principles, such as cheek placement and width, lip width, eye vertical size, brow type, forehead width, and complexion. Ultimately, the beauty of your character is dependent on your own taste, eye, and idiosyncrasies.

 

I've revised this first post in light of my experiments with my third character over the past day or so. The effects are often subtle, but I think the end result is far more balanced than my original (unmeasured) build. In particular, the eyes in the first build seemed too high, while in the new build the eyes are lower and more proportionate to the face (in-game).

 

Here are the eight basic principles of realistic facial proportion, adapted to the creation system:

 

1. The eyes sit at the vertical center of the head or just above, about halfway between the top of the skull (not the hairline) and the bottom of the chin.

2. The bottom of the nose (not the bottom of the nose tip, which can be angled however) sits halfway between the brow and the chin.

3. The ears stretch from the eyes to the bottom of the nose.

4. The width of the eyes is roughly 1/5 of the distance from outer ear to outer ear. In wider faces, this doesn't apply.

5. The eyes are one eye-width apart.

6. The width of the nostrils is the same as the width between the eyes.

7. The center of the lips is located 1/3 of the way down the distance between the bottom of the nose and the chin.

8. The width of the lips (from side to side) is roughly pupil to pupil.

 

Other than that, human faces vary widely. You can use measuring tape to measure these proportions without risking damage to your TV. Here's a graphic that can serve as a rough guide:

 

 

(Image courtesy of Arngeld).

 

 

Obviously, there's no reason to think these are realistic proportions for qunari, dwarves, and elves. Really interesting qunari, dwarves, and elves could likely be generated if you change these basic principles. For instance, I imagine that dwarves tend to have longer chins than humans.

 

Here's the comparison of my third character:

 

Original face

 

 

Original face plus horizontal proportion

 

 

 

Original face plus horizontal and vertical proportion

 

 

A few in-game shots of the original face

 

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A few in-game shots of the original face plus proportional adjustments

 

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[Arngeld]

Good advice there, especially with the tape measure, which I hadn't thought of.  I might have spent less than 40 hours(according to Origin) making characters to get a satisfying result if I had used one of those.

[Aleithian]

Good advice there, especially with the tape measure, which I hadn't thought of.  I might have spent less than 40 hours(according to Origin) making characters to get a satisfying result if I had used one of those.

Thanks. And yeah, the tape measure is a godsend. I just tested the system on my third character, and will post a comparison and measurement analysis in an hour or so as an update to the initial post. It really makes a difference, and animations flow much smoother. Taking a cursory glance at the companions, it looks like Bioware used the above principles to create their faces. Cassandra has perfect proportions so far as I can tell.

[NRieh]

Nice thread! I'd gladly follow and read more on the topic. Sometimes I just can see that something is 'off' in my character's face, but I can't really put a finger on it, and it takes long trial&error process to fix something simple.

[Aleithian]

Nice thread! I'd gladly follow and read more on the topic. Sometimes I just can see that something is 'off' in my character's face, but I can't really put a finger on it, and it takes long trial&error process to fix something simple.

 

Thanks. The real difficulty in creating character faces is finding an 'anchor', something that is absolutely correct around which you can model the rest of the face. In fact, nature provides that anchor in the proportion between the parts. 

 

But I've discovered that Bioware's creation system has another limitation by using this proportion system: eyes can't be lowered sufficiently. A long face will always have the eyes situated too high relative to the height of the face. Other than that, this proportion system is entirely compatible with the creation system. I'm trying to find a workaround by tweaking other stats, but so far I've had no luck. The nose height has a similar limitation, but it's possible to lower the nose tip, and therefore gain additional control over the height of the nose for longer faces. 

[Tensai]

These are very basic rules

 

Real faces "bend" them,

 

Sometimes eyes width is a little smaller than the distance between them or the other way around. 

The width of the nose is usually a tiny bit bigger than spacing between eyes ... and so on.

[Arngeld]

If you're playing the PC version, I just found an alternative to a tape measure. MB-Ruler is a program that can, among other things, provide a grid overlay that is visible over other programs.  Just tested it with DAI, and it works if you are using borderless windowed mode(the game calls it windowed fullscreen).  

 

http://www.markus-ba...Ruler/index.php

 

And here are some reference drawings as well:

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

And finally, an article on a plastic surgery site explaining facial proportions, to include the profile view.

 

https://www.drrawnsl...rfect-nose.html

[Arngeld]

These are very basic rules

 

Real faces "bend" them,

 

Sometimes eyes width is a little smaller than the distance between them or the other way around. 

The width of the nose is usually a tiny bit bigger than spacing between eyes ... and so on.

 

True, but given the difficulty a lot of people are having with the CC, having some basic rules is a good start.  And knowing that there is a general math involved lets you play with the equation when it comes to other races.

[Aleithian]

These are very basic rules

 

Real faces "bend" them,

 

Sometimes eyes width is a little smaller than the distance between them or the other way around. 

The width of the nose is usually a tiny bit bigger than spacing between eyes ... and so on.

 

Oh, I definitely agree, as I noted in the first post. It's also why I called them 'principles' rather than 'rules.'

 

But that said, these principles are significantly in evidence in the global population. Measure your own face - you'll be surprised. 

[Aleithian]

If you're playing the PC version, I just found an alternative to a tape measure. MB-Ruler is a program that can, among other things, provide a grid overlay that is visible over other programs.  Just tested it with DAI, and it works if you are using borderless windowed mode(the game calls it windowed fullscreen).  

 

http://www.markus-ba...Ruler/index.php

 

And here are some reference drawings as well:

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

And finally, an article on a plastic surgery site explaining facial proportions, to include the profile view.

 

https://www.drrawnsl...rfect-nose.html

 

That's great - thanks! I'm working on PS4, so will have to use the less scientific measuring tape, sadly. 

 

So the measure of ideal proportionality between certain parts of the face is allegedly the Golden Ratio, or 1.618. I'm not sure how scientific this is yet - I need to do more research. But George Clooney, for instance, obeys perfect proportionality according to these principles and the Golden Ratio. So does Jessica Alba apparently. So, in the case of Kallionae, her face in the "new" pictures above is 14" by 11.5". The height was the product of adjustment to accommodate proportionality, while the width was entirely arbitrary. Turns out her "ideal" facial width should be 8.65". So later tonight I'll do two things: (1) adjust her face according to a width of 8.65"; (2) determine the facial ratio for the models I'm using as inspiration to determine whether their faces obey the Golden Ratio and, if not, what ratio their faces manifest. 

[Tensai]

Oh, I definitely agree, as I noted in the first post. It's also why I called them 'principles' rather than 'rules.'

 

But that said, these principles are significantly in evidence in the global population. Measure your own face - you'll be surprised. 

 

I actually measured a real face to create my character

[Computer_God91]

Does anyone on PC know how to stop the character from moving around so much? It makes it really challenging to measure their head when they keep bobbing around.

[Aleithian]

Does anyone on PC know how to stop the character from moving around so much? It makes it really challenging to measure their head when they keep bobbing around.

 

It's the same on console. They're trying to bring life to the character, but it ends up getting in the way unfortunately.

[Computer_God91]

It's the same on console. They're trying to bring life to the character, but it ends up getting in the way unfortunately.

 

What would be great is if there was a toggle for that and the lighting. They said they used their cinematic lighting for CC but the problem with that is that like 90% of the game you're not in a cinematic so your character ends up looking funky all but 10% of the time.

 

What they need to add or if modding can be done then modders should add this:

 

Toggle movement animations

Toggle in-game lighting/cinematic lighting

Allow camera rotation on more than just the X axis and maybe a toggle to snap back to X axis rotation only

 

I got lucky with my first character on my first playthrough but now I can't seem to make something that isn't hideous.

[Aleithian]

What would be great is if there was a toggle for that and the lighting. They said they used their cinematic lighting for CC but the problem with that is that like 90% of the game you're not in a cinematic so your character ends up looking funky all but 10% of the time.

 

What they need to add or if modding can be done then modders should add this:

 

Toggle movement animations

Toggle in-game lighting/cinematic lighting

Allow camera rotation on more than just the X axis and maybe a toggle to snap back to X axis rotation only

 

I got lucky with my first character on my first playthrough but now I can't seem to make something that isn't hideous.

 

Yeah, my primary character (my avatar) works great in-game, but it's by chance. An option for natural lighting would be fantastic in the character creator. The game already has it - a simple toggle option would be a godsend.

[Epigram]

The "original" looks better. If you want to make a natural face, try using headshots from ad agencys and modeling firms rather than math principal.

[Aleithian]

The "original" looks better. If you want to make a natural face, try using headshots from ad agencys and modeling firms rather than math principal.

 

If you took the time to read the posts you'd see that the reason the first looks better is that the second 'corrected' face isn't mathematically accurate. The ratio between height and width is off - the face is 3" too wide. In the original set, the proportion between height and width is mathematically more correct even if the proportion between the internal parts of the face is off. So as I said, later tonight I'll be updating this with a third set of pictures to correct the height/width ratio.

 

In other words, your observation regarding the original set validates the mathematical principles mentioned above.

[Arngeld]

The "original" looks better. If you want to make a natural face, try using headshots from ad agencys and modeling firms rather than math principal.

 

 

Perhaps you should try comparing headshots from ad agencies and modeling firms to the math before trying to tell people they don't know what they are talking about.  

 

[Baravis]

Yeah, I'd agree with the above poster that the first face looks more natural.  The second face's jaw looks squished--far too small.  Something looks off about it.

 

edit: Ah I see--the second face was a test.  I must admit I'm puzzled why you switched from the first face--it looks great, to me!

[Computer_God91]

If you took the time to read the posts you'd see that the reason the first looks better is that the second 'corrected' face isn't mathematically accurate. The ratio between height and width is off - the face is 3" too wide. In the original set, the proportion between height and width is mathematically more correct even if the proportion between the internal parts of the face is off. So as I said, later tonight I'll be updating this with a third set of pictures to correct the height/width ratio.

 

In other words, your observation regarding the original set validates the mathematical principles mentioned above.

 

Do you know how to thin out the face without using the head shape slider? I have a problem with the faces seeming to be too wide and the only time I've been able to fix that is with the head shape. Also, you said that it was 3" too wide. What exactly is the ratio of face height to width?

[Aleithian]

Yeah, I'd agree with the above poster that the first face looks more natural.  The second face's jaw looks squished--far too small.  Something looks off about it.

 

edit: Ah I see--the second face was a test.  I must admit I'm puzzled why you switched from the first face--it looks great, to me!

 

Purely as an experiment to correct little issues that bugged me about the appearance of the original face in-game.   When I originally posted pics of the character in another thread, I commented that the eyes seemed too high. They look fine in the character creator, but in game the original eye placement is distractingly high. So I did some research, and turns out the eyes were way too high. I lowered the eyes and discovered that I couldn't lower them enough to achieve proportionality relative to the placement of the chin in the original model. So I raised the chin as well. The result was a squished face.

 

So I'm going to run two follow-up experiments. First, I'll retain the new head but will bring in the face to 8.65" (from the current 11.5"), and will then change proportions accordingly. Second, I'll lower the chin a bit, bring in the width a bit, and 'fudge' strict vertical proportionality. 

[Aleithian]

Do you know how to thin out the face without using the head shape slider? I have a problem with the faces seeming to be too wide and the only time I've been able to fix that is with the head shape. Also, you said that it was 3" too wide. What exactly is the ratio of face height to width?

 

The head's height is ideally 1.618 times the width. This does vary slightly from individual to individual, but it is roughly evident in almost every single adult human, regardless of race. The original set of pics above is roughly that (I don't have the exact figure to hand), but the new set is way off - 1.21 in fact. That might be appropriate for an orc or dwarf, but not for a human. 

 

As for how to change the width, it might be impossible to achieve totally real proportionality. We can't vertically in long faces due to the limits on eye placement. It might be impossible in the case of my character - I'll have to log in later to check. But anyway, one way to do it is to play with the ear position settings (I think - maybe ear size). You can drastically affect face width with that setting. To achieve a 1.618:1 ratio, you might have to lengthen the face. 

[Baravis]

The eyes do look a touch high in the original, now that you mention it!  They also look too big in the second face--unnaturally big.  I would imagine they're the same size from face-to-face, but the proportions of the second face just draw attention to it.

 

Thanks for the post, regardless.  I'm getting the game soon and want to make a normal looking character--this is great info to that end.

[Computer_God91]

The head's height is ideally 1.618 times the width. This does vary slightly from individual to individual, but it is roughly evident in almost every single adult human, regardless of race. The original set of pics above is roughly that (I don't have the exact figure to hand), but the new set is way off - 1.21 in fact. That might be appropriate for an orc or dwarf, but not for a human. 

 

As for how to change the width, it might be impossible to achieve totally real proportionality. We can't vertically in long faces due to the limits on eye placement. It might be impossible in the case of my character - I'll have to log in later to check. But anyway, one way to do it is to play with the ear position settings (I think - maybe ear size). You can drastically affect face width with that setting. To achieve a 1.618:1 ratio, you might have to lengthen the face. 

 

 

Wow, I wouldn't have guessed that the ears would end up effecting the width of the head. I'll have to test that. Currently I'm trying to make a female Qunari and that is proving to be quite a challenge. It's funny though cause usually I have a harder time making satisfactory males then females but my elf dude turned out really good.

[Aleithian]

The eyes do look a touch high in the original, now that you mention it!  They also look too big in the second face--unnaturally big.  I would imagine they're the same size from face-to-face, but the proportions of the second face just draw attention to it.

 

Thanks for the post, regardless.  I'm getting the game soon and want to make a normal looking character--this is great info to that end.

 

Actually, the eyes are too big in the second pic. 

 

I widened the eyes in the second set to achieve a 1/5 of face width. But since the face width is too big relative to height in the second set, the eyes are also too big relative to the face. So in the third set that I'll do tonight, the eyes will be smaller, though lower than in the first set.