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Celene & Briala (Spoilers for Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts)


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#226
aeoncs

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Might as well be arguing with people who think that Fifty Shades of Grey is a romantic depiction of a healthy BDSM relationship.

 

LOL.

 

I decided to "help" reconcile them even though I didn't like it one bit. Choosing Celene was actually quite simple, because despite her being a manipulative, devious and selfish (at least when it comes to her love life) b*tch, she's the devil you know - Gaspard, despite making his ambitions clear in TME, is an unknown quantity that could have, potentially, lead Orlais and ultimately Thedas to its doom.

Furthermore, doing everything to make Briala support and work hand in hand with Celene while strengthening their bond as much as possible seemed like the logical extension of that choice, considering Briala's knowledge and resources.

Practically forcing all three of them to work together easily seems to be the worst possible outcome to me, especially in the long run.

 

On a side note... is it just me or does Celene look considerably older than she actually is? Then again, with the life she's been leading, it isn't that much of a surprise.



#227
Former_Fiend

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Eh, she's 38-39, living an exceedingly stressful life. I don't recall her ever explicitly being described as beautiful or youthful by anyone, let alone an unbiased source. 

 

If anything she honestly looks better than I imagined she'd look; the art on the cover of The Masked Empire made her look rather plain, all things considered.



#228
aeoncs

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Eh, she's 38-39, living an exceedingly stressful life. I don't recall her ever explicitly being described as beautiful or youthful by anyone, let alone an unbiased source. 

 

If anything she honestly looks better than I imagined she'd look; the art on the cover of The Masked Empire made her look rather plain, all things considered.

 

She's 37 actually, maybe 38. But yeah, her life has definitely been exceedingly stressful. It's just that she looks a good ten years older than Cassandra, who is about the same age, possibly even a few years older.

I actually never paid any attention to the cover of TME since I read in on my phone but while the general look is the same, I think she does look quite a bit better on the cover, or at least more refined.



#229
Former_Fiend

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She's 37 actually, maybe 38. But yeah, her life has definitely been exceedingly stressful. It's just that she looks a good ten years older than Cassandra, who is about the same age, possibly even a few years older.

I actually never paid any attention to the cover of TME since I read in on my phone but while the general look is the same, I think she does look quite a bit better on the cover, or at least more refined.

 

How does that math work? She became Empress at the age of 16 and TME repeatedly mentions she's been empress for twenty years, and Inquisition takes place two years after TME..



#230
Lenimph

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Look, I'm tired of this discussion. You want to get them back together, fine, whatever, your game.

Might as well be arguing with people who think that Fifty Shades of Grey is a romantic depiction of a healthy BDSM relationship.

I never denied that their relationship is far from perfect but people are so quick to paint Briala as a victim when they were both clearly using each other. And when they do get back together it's on a far more equal playing field.

And Celene is no way worse then Marjolaine.
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#231
aeoncs

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How does that math work? She became Empress at the age of 16 and TME repeatedly mentions she's been empress for twenty years, and Inquisition takes place two years after TME..

 

Simple. Celene was born in 9:4 Dragon, the start of Inquisition takes place in 9:41 - one year after TME.



#232
ttestagr

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On Gaspard getting support for the Civil War, we literally see how he does this.  It was through Celene's maneuver to stop a foreign political crisis that Gaspard was trying to start with Teagan.  The Chevaliers were basically unhappy that Celene wasn't letting them go to war, and as it was Gaspard still didn't have enough of them to keep things in house at the Winter Palace.  He had to hire mercenaries because of this, which is how you blackmail him.  Gaspard's rebellion is built entirely on Celene not catering to the brutish thug monsters who were in power before.  His justification is also poor.  Yes, he's the oldest.  However Celene is the only one with the actual family name which is just as important.  Celene's claim is just as strong.

 

Basically, for choosing you really need to look at their desires.  Tevinter's aggression has Gaspard focus north, but his ambition is still to expand Orlais with military conquest.  Celene wants to bring about a golden age of the arts and science through peace and stability.  Briala wants to bring equality for her people and has already convinced Celene so that it is something she wants as well.  So in looking at the future, Celene and Briala together definitely have the best hopeful future for Orlais and Thedas.

 

As for their relationship, I think people are ignoring a very important aspect.  Yes it isn't a healthy normal relationship.  However neither of these women is a healthy normal woman.  Both of them are Bards, spies.  Intrigue, espionage, and murder are their lives and have been for over 2 decades.  They very much care for each other and are capable of forgiving the sins they do to each other because that is the life they've both lived for far too long.  So yes, it isn't a good relationship.  However, its perfect for these 2 very not good ladies.  Normal and healthy wouldn't work for either of them.


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#233
Steelcan

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So as long as the people involved aren't paragons of goodness and they love each other,abusive and unhealthy relationships are OK?
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#234
ButterRum

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Where did Celene say Briala would be locked in a tower? I don't remember that...

 

Not to mention, Briala isn't some pathetic girl desperate for love: If she wanted to leave, she would. She wouldn't let herself be "abused" by Celene, because she isn't stupid. Nor do I think Celene is abusing her. Lets not forget that they both know this isn't a "normal" relationship, its between the Empress and an elf; that has to be kept secret for both their sakes.

 

It was Briala's idea to kill the noble who killed a poor elf in Halamshiral (which started the rebellions). Celene let her, but she changed her mind on attacking Halamshiral when Gaspard pulled that stunt at the theatre that depicted Celene in a relationship with an elf. 

 

Briala killed the noble, but Celene sent Michel and troops to keep Briala "imprisoned." Celene did say to take special care of her. It wasn't really clear why Celene wanted to hold Briala prisoner... but it had to do with her attacking Halamshiral. I think she was worried there would be another uprising and wanted to protect Briala. Celene said later on Briala wouldn't have been like a regular prisoner, and she would just say she held Briala prisoner just to shut up the humans from spreading rumor that she was in love with elves. 


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#235
The Baconer

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The Chevaliers were basically unhappy that Celene wasn't letting them go to war,

 

Mmm, it's a little more complex than that. When Celene ordered Gaspard to offer his plume to Teagan for the play duel, many Chevaliers interpreted that as making a joke of their order while offering a curtsy to Ferelden. This curtsy to the "dog-lords" also managed to ****** off some of those among the general nobility who were still mad about the failed occupation.


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#236
TheSeekerofLulz

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So as long as the people involved aren't paragons of goodness and they love each other,abusive and unhealthy relationships are OK?

We all make mistakes. I'm willing to give them another chance in a world where Gaspard isn't breathing down their necks. 


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#237
Steelcan

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We all make mistakes. I'm willing to give them another chance in a world where Gaspard isn't breathing down their necks.

. This kind of thinking is what enables "I swear I won't lock her in a tower to be my personal ****toy if she just behaves herself"
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#238
TheSeekerofLulz

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All because of the pressures Gaspard put on Celene's rule. 



#239
Steelcan

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All because of the pressures Gaspard put on Celene's rule.

Gaspard didn't make Celene kill Briala's parents then seduce her,or use her for years

#240
Master Warder Z_

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Gaspard didn't make Celene kill Briala's parents then seduce her,or use her for years

 

He just wanted to retake some lost land, kill some elven bandits and remake Orlais into the greatest empire in the world again :P


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#241
TheSeekerofLulz

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Gaspard didn't make Celene kill Briala's parents then seduce her,or use her for years

No he did not. Celene didn't make Briala's parents do the same thing to others either. That's simply how the game is played. I don't hate Gaspard for his actions, but they caused most of the primary issues in their relationship. 



#242
ttestagr

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So as long as the people involved aren't paragons of goodness and they love each other,abusive and unhealthy relationships are OK?

 

Paragons of goodness?  Seriously is this your response?  Because what you are trying to say with this implication does not counter my point.  That two people who are this fundamentally abusive and unhealthy simply can't get into a better relationship.  So the answer is they get with people like themselves (in this case each other) where they know what they are getting into and can handle it, get into a relationship with a person who can't handle the potential abuse here, or forswear relationships entirely.

 

The third is absurd, people don't do that.  The second would be terrible and screw up someone who doesn't deserve it nor handle it.  The first, as is the case with them together, is the best case scenario.  Not to mention, for the first time they can approach each other on an equal footing giving more opportunity plus all of the lies are out of the way, so their relationship has the opportunity to turn healthy.  Doubtful, but its far more likely with each other than either of them ending up with someone else.

 

 

Mmm, it's a little more complex than that. When Celene ordered Gaspard to offer his plume to Teagan for the play duel, many Chevaliers interpreted that as making a joke of their order while offering a curtsy to Ferelden. This curtsy to the "dog-lords" also managed to ****** off some of those among the general nobility who were still mad about the failed occupation.

 

I am aware.  The thing though, is that Gaspard's insult had everything to do with the war.  The silliness with the feather duel was not close to as horrible as his insult towards Moira's memory.  Just the rumor of such a thing in Ferelden would have been disastrous for relations between the two countries, especially since they not only killed her but used her head as decoration above the palace gates in Denerim.  The public slapdown was necessary not only to stop Teagan from doing something immediately disastrous, but going back to Ferelden afterwards with reports that would spoil relations between them.

 

 

We all make mistakes. I'm willing to give them another chance in a world where Gaspard isn't breathing down their necks. 

 

You forget one thing.  In the end of Masked Empire, after everything was sorted out, Briala outright admitted she would forgive Celene.  The only question was basically if Celene would be similarly devoted after what Briala cost her there.  The Behind the Empress quest shows that she will.  Twenty years of a successful relationship is a lot of history and a lot of weight that can overcome even horrible issues.  They had been together long enough that their goals very much align with one another and both want to support the other's.  They clearly still feel for each other and would rather not throw away the twenty years together, and they have a lot of common ground now to build on as they work towards a common goal somewhat as equals.  They have a chance to make it successful.



#243
Steelcan

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So yes it is OK that they are in an abusive relationship, seeking out other people to confide in and start some sort of healing process is out?

#244
ttestagr

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So yes it is OK that they are in an abusive relationship, seeking out other people to confide in and start some sort of healing process is out?

 

Healing process?  Briala is still the head of a spy cabal that requires her to willingness to be a horrible person, same for Celene's brand of diplomacy and her desire to create massive cultural change.  I'm seriously wondering at you that you can't understand this.  A healing process is out because the position each of these women is in makes such a thing impossible.  Its incredibly obvious and I'm struggling to believe someone is having an issue picking that up.


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#245
Warden Commander Aeducan

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So...apparently people invent this romantic fantasy about "true love", Celene and Briala separated because of the evil warmonger Gaspard. Some people even believe this abusive, unhealthy relationship is OK so long as they love each other, to justify reconcile Celene & Briala. While ignoring that Celene kill Briala's parents, Celene lies to Briala for twenty years, Celene not even feel remotely guilty and able to sleep with a woman whom parents murder by her. Celene uses Briala to serve her own agenda. Good grief! Why some people still not seeing what is wrong with their relationship, and believe that Celene is a good person is beyond me.

 

I'm so glad I'm not forced to play as matchmaker, and I will see Celene's reign downfall. 


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#246
ttestagr

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So...apparently people invent this romantic fantasy about "true love", Celene and Briala separated because of the evil warmonger Gaspard. Some people even believe this abusive, unhealthy relationship is OK so long as they love each other, to justify reconcile Celene & Briala. While ignoring that Celene kill Briala's parents, Celene lies to Briala for twenty years, Celene not even feel remotely guilty and able to sleep with a woman whom parents murder by her. Celene uses Briala to serve her own agenda. Good grief! Why some people still not seeing what is wrong with their relationship, and believe that Celene is a good person is beyond me.

 

I'm so glad I'm not forced to play as matchmaker, and I will see Celene's reign downfall. 

 

I don't know what you're seeing, but the argument from most people isn't that Celene is a good person.  Its that she has good goals, and she's a horrible person to achieve them.  Same for Briala.  And in the end between the two of them, they know and accept that about each other as long if you reconcile them.



#247
Augustei

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Ignoring all else, A Marquis and an Empress are titles with equal footing now? LOL



#248
Ailith Tycane

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Video of reuniting Empress Celene and Briala

 


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#249
Steelcan

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Healing process?  Briala is still the head of a spy cabal that requires her to willingness to be a horrible person, same for Celene's brand of diplomacy and her desire to create massive cultural change.  I'm seriously wondering at you that you can't understand this.  A healing process is out because the position each of these women is in makes such a thing impossible.  Its incredibly obvious and I'm struggling to believe someone is having an issue picking that up.

being in a healthy romantic relationship is not exclusive to people who don't have blood on their hands

#250
Xilizhra

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So...apparently people invent this romantic fantasy about "true love", Celene and Briala separated because of the evil warmonger Gaspard. Some people even believe this abusive, unhealthy relationship is OK so long as they love each other, to justify reconcile Celene & Briala. While ignoring that Celene kill Briala's parents, Celene lies to Briala for twenty years, Celene not even feel remotely guilty and able to sleep with a woman whom parents murder by her. Celene uses Briala to serve her own agenda. Good grief! Why some people still not seeing what is wrong with their relationship, and believe that Celene is a good person is beyond me.

 

I'm so glad I'm not forced to play as matchmaker, and I will see Celene's reign downfall. 

Two reasons.

 

1. My Inquisitor knows none of this.

2. I don't know it directly, having not read the book and thus not being entirely able to judge it for myself.

3. If Bioware thinks differently of it than you, which seems likely, it's likely to have a decent outcome. And I'm damn well not sinking the only NPC lesbian relationship ever that might possibly have a happy ending.