Aller au contenu

Photo

Celene & Briala (Spoilers for Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts)


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
462 réponses à ce sujet

#101
Ailith Tycane

Ailith Tycane
  • Members
  • 2 422 messages

Just marrying Gaspard was not a realistic option for preventing the civil war. First of all, he's her cousin, ew gross. Second of all, do some research on Elizabeth I of England, and not just textbook "here's what happened" history. She was considered the virgin queen because she never married, she created an atmosphere of allure and mystery about herself, all while having multiple consorts throughout her life, WHILE KEEPING COMPLETE POWER OF HER KINGDOM UNTIL SHE DIED. That was the point. She knew if she got married she would lose the control she had to whatever schmuck they handed the crown to, so she intentionally would lead on different suitors in order to ally herself with certain people she needed but would never ever have married them. This is obviously a reality for Celene as well. If she married Gaspard she would have had to give up at least some control, if not all, and granted Thedas is not as misogynistic as 16th century England, but it would still have complicated their roles and who had any real authority. Marrying Gaspard would have been the same as handing him the keys and giving up completely.

 

Edit: Also I'm not sure I approve of that line of thinking. "Just do what I say or else I'll hurt you" sounds a lot like manipulative and violent behavior where the victim should not be blamed for the outcome. 


  • rubynorman, Tuatha de Danann, ButterRum et 1 autre aiment ceci

#102
Barquiel

Barquiel
  • Members
  • 5 844 messages

You realize that most of the codex entries are penned by Chantry scholars that Celene patrons, yes?


Then what exactly is your source that Celene's rule was inefficient? Because some powerhungry and greedy noble starting a civil war isn't one.


  • Lavellan-San aime ceci

#103
TheSeekerofLulz

TheSeekerofLulz
  • Members
  • 35 messages

too bad for Celene she couldn't charm that knife she fell on

Because it's Celene's fault you, the person she sent to investigate, let her die. 


  • Tuatha de Danann et Lavellan-San aiment ceci

#104
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 279 messages

Just marrying Gaspard was not a realistic option for preventing the civil war. First of all, he's her cousin, ew gross. Second of all, do some research on Elizabeth I of England, and not just textbook "here's what happened" history. She was considered the virgin queen because she never married, she created an atmosphere of allure and mystery about herself, all while having multiple consorts throughout her life, WHILE KEEPING COMPLETE POWER OF HER KINGDOM UNTIL SHE DIED. That was the point. She knew if she got married she would lose the control she had to whatever schmuck they handed the crown to, so she intentionally would lead on different suitors in order to ally herself with certain people she needed but would never ever have married them. This is obviously a reality for Celene as well. If she married Gaspard she would have had to give up at least some control, if not all, and granted Thedas is not as misogynistic as 16th century England, but it would still have complicated their roles and who had any real authority. Marrying Gaspard would have been the same as handing him the keys and giving up completely.

It would have detoothed him immeasurably.  She would have still been empress, her connections and influence wouldn't evaporate overnight

 

Cousin marriages among the nobility?  Dear lord someone stop the presses

 

LOL @Elizabeth, thank God she had such good spymasters and lords actually doing the work for her.  Stringing suitors along doesn't beat the Spanish armada, or keep the Scots from burning down Northumberland



#105
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 279 messages

Because it's Celene's fault you, the person she sent to investigate, let her die. 

Gaspard invited me to the Ball so.....


  • Beaghan aime ceci

#106
EmperorSahlertz

EmperorSahlertz
  • Members
  • 8 809 messages

Then what exactly is your source that Celene's rule was inefficient? Because some powerhungry and greedy noble starting a civil war isn't one.

No, him alone is nothing. The fact that he got political backing from half of Orlais' nobles, tells us everything we need to know about Celene's rulership.


  • Steelcan aime ceci

#107
TheSeekerofLulz

TheSeekerofLulz
  • Members
  • 35 messages

Gaspard invited me to the Ball so.....

So what? The Inquisition isn't an ally of Gaspard's, and that was just a way into the party to protect Celene. 


  • Tuatha de Danann et Lavellan-San aiment ceci

#108
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 279 messages

So what? The Inquisition isn't an ally of Gaspard's, and that was just a way into the party to protect Celene. 

Which you can object to from the outset..

 

You can pick a side fairly quickly



#109
TheSeekerofLulz

TheSeekerofLulz
  • Members
  • 35 messages

Which you can object to from the outset..

 

You can pick a side fairly quickly

Again, how is you being incompetent a negative against Celene? If anything, without the Inquisitor there, he would have gone up in smoke as well. 


  • Tuatha de Danann et Lavellan-San aiment ceci

#110
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 279 messages

Again, how is you being incompetent a negative against Celene? If anything, without the Inquisitor there, he would have gone up in smoke as well. 

>Inquisition is incompetent for not supporting your favorite

>legit.jpg

 

Celene is incompetent because she can't effectively control her own court, she can't prevent a pretender from causing trouble, nor can she effectively rob him of support or resources.  Gaspard's incompetence is..... not liking the Game and preferring a straight up fight.

 

He is trusted to see Orlais through the Civil War and Crisis by about half of Orlais, and his epilogue slide confirms his competence in ruling


  • Dark Helmet aime ceci

#111
The Baconer

The Baconer
  • Members
  • 5 675 messages

and it all comes crashing down very quickly because of her

 

If you want to make an erroneous simplification, sure.

 

 

No, him alone is nothing. The fact that he got political backing from half of Orlais' nobles,

 

First off, nowhere is it confirmed that he is backed by half of the nobles (the quest at Halamshiral implies quite the opposite, in fact).

 

 

tells us everything we need to know about Celene's rulership.

 

Second, even if this were true, uh, no it wouldn't. It wouldn't even come close. That is rather circular logic.

 

Going by The Masked Empire, it would actually tell us more about the relationship Orlesian nobles have with reality.


  • Lavellan-San aime ceci

#112
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 279 messages

Gaspard wouldn't be able to pull off his rebellion if the nobles were overwhelmingly stacked against him, we know for a fact he has strong support in the southern parts of Orlais as well as other sympathetic nobles throughout the empire, if Celene had significantly more allies to call upon the Civil war would have ended already



#113
SgtSteel91

SgtSteel91
  • Members
  • 1 886 messages

Some questions I hope people can answer:

 

Can Gaspard become Emperor without having Celen assassinated?

 

When Orlais and Fereldan ally, is it against the Ventori or Tevinter as a whole?



#114
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 279 messages

Some questions I hope people can answer:

 

Can Gaspard become Emperor without having Celen assassinated?

 

When Orlais and Fereldan ally, is it against the Ventori or Tevinter as a whole?

Not to my knowledge but I have only played the mission a few different ways

 

Tevinter as a whole sicne the Venatori are presumably defunct after the ending of DA:I



#115
Ailith Tycane

Ailith Tycane
  • Members
  • 2 422 messages

Elizabeth had two goals as a ruler: to avoid marriage and to avoid war. She combined them by dangling the  possibility of marriage in order to forge alliances, but the moment she committed to any single suitor she would have lost her power (Like Mary Queen of Scots.)

 

She not only dominated her country but also any man trying to conquer her. She stayed the center of attention and kept control. She made herself an object of worship and yet managed to rule through a period of peace and cultural fertility. So yes, stringing suitors along actually did prevent a lot of wars and armadas, despite your dismissive tone, lol. 

 

Again, I'm sure this is something Celene had to deal with as well, and I wouldn't be surprised if even in Thedas male rulers would become the defacto leaders after a marriage. If I were her and control was my goal, I wouldn't have married him either. And again, the idea that him starting a war was her fault because she refused to marry him is a little absurd. 


  • Lenimph, Tuatha de Danann et Lavellan-San aiment ceci

#116
TheSeekerofLulz

TheSeekerofLulz
  • Members
  • 35 messages

>Inquisition is incompetent for not supporting your favorite

>legit.jpg

No, you're incompetent for not doing the job you were sent to do. Celene trusting you to be even handed and fair was her only mistake that night. As opposed to Gaspard sloppily sneaking in soldiers and Briala leaving bodies all thrown in a closet. But all you guys do is insult her way of playing the Game. 

 

 

 

Celene is incompetent because she can't effectively control her own court, she can't prevent a pretender from causing trouble, nor can she effectively rob him of support or resources.  Gaspard's incompetence is..... not liking the Game and preferring a straight up fight.

How many nobles supported Gaspard that night? When I listened, it was a lot less than the ones that supported Celene. Gaspard may be more stern, but in the end he'll bury Orlais, no matter how many times you send Josephine to negotiate with him.

 

 

He is trusted to see Orlais through the Civil War and Crisis by about half of Orlais, and his epilogue slide confirms his competence in ruling

Because the Inquisition solves yet another one of his problems. He can't rule on his own, never has. Unlike Celene. 


  • Tuatha de Danann et Lavellan-San aiment ceci

#117
Costin_Razvan

Costin_Razvan
  • Members
  • 7 010 messages

I guess Tevinter as a whole, perfectly happy with that outcome and no Gaspard can't become Emperor without letting Celene die.

 

Honestly I expected Celene to be more competent. She almost gained Fereldan without a fight by making a deal with Cailan, that broke down quickly after Ostagar.

Instead we get...this fool who gets manipulated into throwing her army into urban fighting where it gets massacred, who conducts a genocide campaign just to quell rumors around the court? Celene is only alive because of blind luck and magic. 

Not that Gaspard is better as a politician, but it strikes me as a better to deal to place him in power, with or without Briala controlling him from the shadow. With the latter the Inquisition makes him it's puppet.



#118
The Baconer

The Baconer
  • Members
  • 5 675 messages

Gaspard wouldn't be able to pull off his rebellion if the nobles were overwhelmingly stacked against him, we know for a fact he has strong support in the southern parts of Orlais as well as other sympathetic nobles throughout the empire, if Celene had significantly more allies to call upon the Civil war would have ended already

 

When he has the lion's share of Chevaliers and military vets in his corner, he sure can.

 

Of course, his position weakened when he killed one of his most powerful allies and made threats to the council of heralds. Probably the reason why he was so desperate in-game.


  • Tuatha de Danann et Lavellan-San aiment ceci

#119
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 279 messages

No, you're incompetent for not doing the job you were sent to do. Celene trusting you to be even handed and fair was her only mistake that night. As opposed to Gaspard sloppily sneaking in soldiers and Briala leaving bodies all thrown in a closet. But all you guys do is insult her way of playing the Game. 

How many nobles supported Gaspard that night? When I listened, it was a lot less than the ones that supported Celene. Gaspard may be more stern, but in the end he'll bury Orlais, no matter how many times you send Josephine to negotiate with him.

Because the Inquisition solves yet another one of his problems. He can't rule on his own, never has. Unlike Celene. 

Her mistake beyond trusting Florienne? I insult her way of playing the Game because she failed, utterly and completely.  She couldn't stop Gaspard, she couldn't keep Briala, and she can only hold the empire if she is bailed out by the Inqusition

 

Got any proof for that, because I have epilogue slides that directly contradict that. Josephine gets Alistair and Gaspard to agree to an accord, and Gaspard leasds Orlais containing Tevinter and keeping stability at home along with good relations with Ferelden.  You cannot argue that away just because it proves that Celene is ultimately unnecessary

 

Celene never ruled on her own either, Orlais isn't an absolute monarchy nor is she capable of it.  Its a labyrinth of delegation to other lords and other allegiances coming into conflict.  That she is unable to stop them from starting a rebellion on her watch is credit to Gaspard's ability and proof against her's



#120
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 279 messages

When he has the lion's share of Chevaliers and military vets in his corner, he sure can.

 

Of course, his position weakened when he killed one of his most powerful allies and made threats to the council of heralds. Probably the reason why he was so desperate in-game.

Chevaliers are part of the nobility I believe, obviously a lower ranking part, but still part of it.



#121
Ailith Tycane

Ailith Tycane
  • Members
  • 2 422 messages
 

No, him alone is nothing. The fact that he got political backing from half of Orlais' nobles, tells us everything we need to know about Celene's rulership.

 

No it doesn't. All that tells us is that some of the ruling class has enough issue with her that they want her gone, but since when in any kind of scenario does the wants and wishes of the ruling class ever align with what's actually for the good of the country and it's people? 


  • Lavellan-San aime ceci

#122
The Baconer

The Baconer
  • Members
  • 5 675 messages

Chevaliers are part of the nobility I believe, obviously a lower ranking part, but still part of it.

 

They are. This doesn't change that more nobles support Celene, but in a war they can certainly make up for the difference.


  • Tuatha de Danann et Lavellan-San aiment ceci

#123
EmperorSahlertz

EmperorSahlertz
  • Members
  • 8 809 messages

 

 

 

No it doesn't. All that tells us is that some of the ruling class has enough issue with her that they want her gone, but since when in any kind of scenario does the wants and wishes of the ruling class ever align with what's actually for the good of the country and it's people? 

 

In an aristocracy the wants and needs of the people are secondary. But what the people or Orlais CERTAINLY don't need, is a spineless and ineffectual leader like Celene. Gaspard on the other hand would be a strong ruler, that would see Orlais through the times of crisis. Mostly because he is not afraid to step on toes to get things done. Celene is so mortified at the aspect of failing to keep up appearances, that she has failed her entire country.


  • Dark Helmet aime ceci

#124
Aimi

Aimi
  • Members
  • 4 616 messages

Elizabeth had two goals as a ruler: to avoid marriage and to avoid war. She combined them by dangling the  possibility of marriage in order to forge alliances, but the moment she committed to any single suitor she would have lost her power (Like Mary Queen of Scots.)
 
She not only dominated her country but also any man trying to conquer her. She stayed the center of attention and kept control. She made herself an object of worship and yet managed to rule through a period of peace and cultural fertility. So yes, stringing suitors along actually did prevent a lot of wars and armadas, despite your dismissive tone, lol.


Elizabeth didn't rule during a time of "peace and cultural fertility".

It was Elizabeth who sent the Reformation in England into its bloodiest phase, by cracking down on "popery" and forcibly converting everyone she could find as a matter of "internal security". (Elizabeth's measures were just as strict as those of her Catholic sister, but Mary is vilified by most English historians and Elizabeth isn't because...reasons.) This extended to Ireland, in which she started a Nine Years War (one of the most violent and destructive episodes in Irish history, dwarfing the Cromwell atrocities several decades later) against people who were actively trying to avoid fighting with the English crown. She sent military and financial assistance to rebels in several parts of Europe in the name of a war against the Iberian monarchy that was at least half her fault, and for good measure sent armies into Scotland and France to try regime change in those places too.

I don't know how you define "cultural fertility", but "peace" is not the word I would associate with Elizabeth's reign. Her reign featured more wars, bloodier wars, and more expensive wars than any of her near contemporaries as English rulers.

Also, the "Virgin Queen" thing significantly destabilized the country because it made Elizabeth herself an excellent target. With no spouse or heir, killing her became one of the most potentially economical ways to send England spiraling into another succession crisis. The sheer number of attempted assassinations and coups during Elizabeth's reign is ridiculous, and while it's true that most of those were due to her militant anti-Catholicism one imagines that there wouldn't have been quite so many if she wasn't so vulnerable. She was extremely lucky to avoid assassination as it was; if she had not, the country might have had another civil war on its hands.

Elizabeth is retrospectively deified (especially in the UK) because of that luck, and because of her skill at propagandizing; no one was better suited to hijacking (and then creating) Little English nationalism than her. The atrocities in Ireland are usually ignored or forgiven because most English can't be bothered to learn Irish history, and those that do learn it generally blame everything that happened on the Irish. In fact, most of her foreign policy doesn't receive much attention; the aggressive moves in Europe are downplayed in favor of RESISTING THE VILE ARMADA TILBURY SPEECH HEART OF A KING RAH RAH YAH BOO SPAIN SUCKS. Her lunatic religious policy also tends to get a pass from people who automatically associate Catholicism with evil. Most English historical writing on Elizabeth is little better than hagiography, and insofar as anyone can find the courage to criticize her, the lack of a marriage is the main thing they harp on.

The supposed benefit of her lack of marriage, the boost to English diplomacy, was nugatory: no country committed to a pro-English foreign policy due to the potential for a royal marriage, and Elizabeth never closed any of the deals. The flirtation with a Habsburg match early in her reign was wiped out by her anti-Spanish and anti-Catholic foreign policy, and the later proposed marriages to the dukes of Anjou wouldn't have had much diplomatic effect (due to the Wars of Religion) even if they'd gone through, which they didn't.
  • Pleonast et cassandra365 aiment ceci

#125
SgtSteel91

SgtSteel91
  • Members
  • 1 886 messages

Considering the options and consequences and Inquisitor I'm playing as I'm going to

 

Spoiler


  • Lavellan-San aime ceci