484 réponses à ce sujet

[Julia Luna]

That is very insulting to many different kinds of people. 

I have never seen a person in real life that does not have sexual relationships when ther are in a relationship with someone. I know one person that does not have sex but she is 21 and she is very insecure because of her looks and some physical deformities she acquired during birth due to some complications, it is not really a choice is more like fear...

Because of internet I know that there are people who don't have sex, supposedly by choice, but the number must be VERY small since in my lifetime I have never met someone like that, so it is 0.01% of adults or less. So... not relevant...

[Johnsen1972]

why does everyone want to have sex scenes? There is NO need for them. If you are horny google some pron....

[Charcoal15]

why does everyone want to have sex scenes? There is NO need for them. If you are horny google some pron....

I do agree and do not find it a big deal. The case however is that some people think its not a proper loving relationship without sex, and so Josie should have a sex scene as in their minds, two people cant have a relationship without sex. Thats what I have picked up so far anyways.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I have never seen a person in real life that does not have sexual relationships when ther are in a relationship with someone. I know one person that does not have sex but she is 21 and she is very insecure because of her looks and some physical deformities she acquired during birth due to some complications, it is not really a choice is more like fear...

Because of internet I know that there are people who don't have sex, supposedly by choice, but the number must be VERY small since in my lifetime I have never met someone like that, so it is 0.01% of adults or less. So... not relevant...

And likewise I know more people who don't have sex with those they are dating than those who do. Again, if you count those who choose not have sex while dating for whatever reason, the number is very high and thus is relevant. And again, if you want Josephine to be sexually involved with the Inquisitor, go ahead. The writer never says they don't but rather leaves it ambiguous so both sides would be happy. The only people who aren't happy are those who wants to see the sex scene rather than imagine it, ignoring the fact that save for Sera if certain conditions are met not a single love interest is shown having sex so they have to imagine it anyway. 

[Former_Fiend]

why does everyone want to have sex scenes? There is NO need for them. If you are horny google some pron....

 

Sex scenes and porn aren't the same thing. 

 

For the purposes of titillation, I don't need a sex scene in a game. I have the whole of the internet at my disposal. I can get a fair amount of dragon age porn if I wanted; the fan base counts quite a few talented artists among it.

 

What a sex scene offers is character development. It allows the characters to express intimacy and passion and love. Nudity can be used to express vulnerability; Cassandra's nude scene is important for her character not because we get to see nipples but because this is her literally and figuratively without her armor on, baring(pun intended) to the man she loves.

 

Personally, I find the idea that depictions of sex are only for the purpose of titillation to be offensive. Sex is a beautiful thing. It isn't necessarily dirty, or shameful. Sex and the human body can - and in media aimed at adults, should - be portrayed positively, and DAI does that very well, in my opinion.

[Uccio]

why does everyone want to have sex scenes? There is NO need for them. If you are horny google some pron....

 

This is not even funny, please read the whole thread.

[King Dragonlord]

I'll put it this way. If the writer's goal was ambiguity, as some claim,  then she failed. A kiss and fade to black in a game where every other romance has sex complete with nudity is a clear signal that it didn't happen. These things are never judged in a vacuum.

[daveliam]

......in a game where every other romance has sex complete with nudity......

 

Factually incorrect.

[Charcoal15]

I'll put it this way. If the writer's goal was ambiguity, as some claim,  then she failed. A kiss and fade to black in a game where every other romance has sex complete with nudity is a clear signal that it didn't happen. These things are never judged in a vacuum.

Doesn't mean it did not happen at all, the writers wanted to leave this one up to imagination and did not want the others to be up to imagination. 

[King Dragonlord]

Doesn't mean it did not happen at all, the writers wanted to leave this one up to imagination and did not want the others to be up to imagination.

I subscribe to death of the author. By that line of thinking it doesn't matter what the author says, it matters what they present in the work.

[Charcoal15]

I subscribe to death of the author. By that line of thinking it doesn't matter what the author says, it matters what they present in the work.

In the work they present, the final scene of the Josie romance looks up to your own interpretation on whether they had sex or not, which is exactly what they were aiming for. Whether the other scenes have nudity or not, the fact that Josies does not by no means suggests that it certainly did not happen.

[jellobell]

Personally, I find the idea that depictions of sex are only for the purpose of titillation to be offensive. Sex is a beautiful thing. It isn't necessarily dirty, or shameful. Sex and the human body can - and in media aimed at adults, should - be portrayed positively, and DAI does that very well, in my opinion.

Yup. 100% agree with you. I don't think that a romance needs a sex scene to feel complete, but I also think that a well-done sex scene can say things about the characters that can be very important to the story that is being told.

 

So if there was a post-game Citadel-style DLC involving a sex scene or fade to black scene or pillow talk with Josephine then I wouldn't object at all, so long as it was well-done. Which, judging from the quality of the romances this time around, I think would be.

[Xilizhra]

I don't think anyone thinks that wanting sex as part of a romantic relationship is juvenile.  I think that focusing solely on sex within the relationship is juvenile.  Or that by stating a relationship without sex is somehow not a real relationship is juvenile.  But just wanting sex in a relationship?  Not juvenile at all.  And totally expected in the vast majority of relationships. 

It's not that it's not a real relationship, it's that it's a non-immersive and poorly portrayed one.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

What a sex scene offers is character development. It allows the characters to express intimacy and passion and love. Nudity can be used to express vulnerability; Cassandra's nude scene is important for her character not because we get to see nipples but because this is her literally and figuratively without her armor on, baring(pun intended) to the man she loves.

Then to change the discussion from the circular argument that it has become, let me ask this: What would a sex scene in Josephine's romance path do as a character development tool? Oh, and "It shows how close/intimate/etc they are" doesn't count since a sex scene isn't needed for that. 

 

It's not that it's not a real relationship, it's that it's a non-immersive and poorly portrayed one.

I disagree. In fact, Josephine's romance is the most immersive relationship in Bioware games for me precisely because of the lack of a sex scene. Whenever there is a sex scene, I immediately detach from the relationship. It can still be a good story, but it isn't immersive anymore.

[Charcoal15]

Then to change the discussion from the circular argument that it has become, let me ask this: What would a sex scene in Josephine's romance path do as a character development tool? Oh, and "It shows how close/intimate/etc they are" doesn't count since a sex scene isn't needed for that. 

 

I disagree. In fact, Josephine's romance is the most immersive relationship in Bioware games for me precisely because of the lack of a sex scene. Whenever there is a sex scene, I immediately detach from the relationship. It can still be a good story, but it isn't immersive anymore.

Exactly. They are not real characters but they can portray real emotions. Talking to them and seeing their emotions and personalities makes me attached to them, seeing a pair of breasts or a bum made out of pixel does nothing to make the relationship appear more real.

[Xilizhra]

Then to change the discussion from the circular argument that it has become, let me ask this: What would a sex scene in Josephine's romance path do as a character development tool? Oh, and "It shows how close/intimate/etc they are" doesn't count since a sex scene isn't needed for that.

Only for people who wouldn't want sex. For those who would, something is perpetually missing.

 

 

I disagree. In fact, Josephine's romance is the most immersive relationship in Bioware games for me precisely because of the lack of a sex scene. Whenever there is a sex scene, I immediately detach from the relationship. It can still be a good story, but it isn't immersive anymore.

For you. It would have been no less immersive for you were there multiple scenes that we had a choice in.

[AresKeith]

It's not that it's not a real relationship, it's that it's a non-immersive and poorly portrayed one.

 

subjective

[Charcoal15]

 

 

 

For you. It would have been no less immersive for you were there multiple scenes that we had a choice in.

How do you do multiple scenes though? If they do it like Sera there is no way of knowing if you are missing the sex or not, if they are blunt about it and give you the option of sex now or do not see it, then you have already had the implication that one character wants sex, and to some that ruins it already. Theres a good mix of romances with sex and those without, altering Josies to fit sex or no sex would also mean altering all the other romances for sex or no sex to fit everyones needs and tastes.

[Xilizhra]

How do you do multiple scenes though? If they do it like Sera there is no way of knowing if you are missing the sex or not, if they are blunt about it and give you the option of sex now or do not see it, then you have already had the implication that one character wants sex, and to some that ruins it already. Theres a good mix of romances with sex and those without, altering Josies to fit sex or no sex would also mean altering all the other romances for sex or no sex to fit everyones needs and tastes.

Make them player-triggered and have the PC make the offer.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Only for people who wouldn't want sex. For those who would, something is perpetually missing.

That doesn't answer my question, Xil. What would the sex scene add to the development of her character? 

 

 

For you. It would have been no less immersive for you were there multiple scenes that we had a choice in.

Yes it would, because the reasons to have or not to have sex are now limited to what they provide you. That is less immersive than what it is now. 

[Charcoal15]

Make them player-triggered and have the PC make the offer.

Like I said in the post, the very implication that a character wants sex would already annoy some. Also, if they did that then you would have to have optional sex for every romance to balance things out, and I honestly doubt Bioware would put in the effort and do that.

[Former_Fiend]

Then to change the discussion from the circular argument that it has become, let me ask this: What would a sex scene in Josephine's romance path do as a character development tool? Oh, and "It shows how close/intimate/etc they are" doesn't count since a sex scene isn't needed for that. 

 

I disagree. In fact, Josephine's romance is the most immersive relationship in Bioware games for me precisely because of the lack of a sex scene. Whenever there is a sex scene, I immediately detach from the relationship. It can still be a good story, but it isn't immersive anymore.

 

Then to change the discussion from the circular argument that it has become, let me ask this: What would a sex scene in Josephine's romance path do as a character development tool? Oh, and "It shows how close/intimate/etc they are" doesn't count since a sex scene isn't needed for that. 

 

I disagree. In fact, Josephine's romance is the most immersive relationship in Bioware games for me precisely because of the lack of a sex scene. Whenever there is a sex scene, I immediately detach from the relationship. It can still be a good story, but it isn't immersive anymore.

 

Then to change the discussion from the circular argument that it has become, let me ask this: What would a sex scene in Josephine's romance path do as a character development tool? Oh, and "It shows how close/intimate/etc they are" doesn't count since a sex scene isn't needed for that. 

 

I disagree. In fact, Josephine's romance is the most immersive relationship in Bioware games for me precisely because of the lack of a sex scene. Whenever there is a sex scene, I immediately detach from the relationship. It can still be a good story, but it isn't immersive anymore.

 

I didn't mean to imply that Cassandra's romance is somehow inherently superior to Josephine's due to the inclusion of a sex scene. Despite my insistence that the two romances explore similar themes of romance, they do tell different stories. Nor is the simple inclusion of a sex scene the reason I find Cassandra's romance appealing and the lack of one the reason I find Josephine's unappealing.

 

My point was that the inclusion of a sex scene in Cassandra's romance isn't smut. It isn't "pron". It isn't there for titillation. 

 

As for what a sex scene could or couldn't add to Josephine's romance, that would depend on a variety of things. I don't believe her romance as is would be improved by it, however, as the ambiguity that you appreciate would need to be thrown out the window. Either a scene confirming that her night with the Inquisitor involved them making love and dealing with the full array of emotions that a person's first time entails would need to be established, or it would need to be established firmly that they did not make love on that particular night so that the first time scene can take place at a later point.

 

That's how I'd write the story, anyway, were I to make the decision to explicitly include that instead of leaving it to the viewer's interpretation. 

[Xilizhra]

That doesn't answer my question, Xil. What would the sex scene add to the development of her character?

You wish for me to repeat myself? Very well, to repost again something from a PM:

 

Not only that, but given Josephine's general personality, along with general past conventions of Bioware games, I never saw any reason to assume we'd started having sex without it coming up. Because, for Josephine, I know that it'd be something important to her; like Leliana and Merrill, she's the romantic sort. How it would happen would be of tremendous emotional importance and is something that I enjoyed seeing in all prior romances, and I feel badly hurt about being unable to do so now, because I know it would have mattered. I don't and will never be able to know her in the way that I knew anyone else I've ever romanced, and I find that horrible.

 

 

Yes it would, because the reasons to have or not to have sex are now limited to what they provide you. That is less immersive than what it is now. 

Hardly. If it's player-triggered, you can have any reason you want for not wanting sex.

 

 

Like I said in the post, the very implication that a character wants sex would already annoy some.

Then ask for an explicitly asexual romance instead of oozing the implication into someone who isn't.

 

 

Also, if they did that then you would have to have optional sex for every romance to balance things out, and I honestly doubt Bioware would put in the effort and do that.

Only for those characters who'd be willing to be in an asexual relationship.

[Charcoal15]

 

 

 

Then ask for an explicitly asexual romance instead of oozing the implication into someone who isn't.

 

 

Only for those characters who'd be willing to be in an asexual relationship.

Let me put it like this: Theres two people looking at, lets say alarm clocks. Theres a lot of them, some have a radio and some do not (Some companions have sex, some do not). Both guys like one certain clock and hate the rest (only like Josie) , this clock lacks a radio. One of the guys hates radio, the very suggestion, the very idea of it being brought up, ever, disgusts him. The other guy is irritated because he wants it to have a radio. They cant just have an optional radio (optional sex) because just mentioning the radio makes the first guy annoyed, they cant just make it so the alarm clock has no suggestion of radio altogether (asexuality), because then the second guy will become uninterested along with others and not many will use the alarm clock. This little metaphor can all be applied to Josie, if you understood it.

[Xilizhra]

Let me put it like this: Theres two people looking at, lets say alarm clocks. Theres a lot of them, some have a radio and some do not (Some companions have sex, some do not). Both guys like one certain clock and hate the rest (only like Josie) , this clock lacks a radio. One of the guys hates radio, the very suggestion, the very idea of it being brought up, ever, disgusts him. The other guy is irritated because he wants it to have a radio. They cant just have an optional radio (optional sex) because just mentioning the radio makes the first guy annoyed, they cant just make it so the alarm clock has no suggestion of radio altogether (asexuality), because then the second guy will become uninterested along with others and not many will use the alarm clock. This little metaphor can all be applied to Josie, if you understood it.

And in your case, they went for the second option, which sucks if Josephine wasn't intended to be asexual.

 

Why not simply create a romance option who's completely asexual if the mere thought of sex disgusts you? Moreover, none of Josephine's romance prior would need to be changed to fill my optional scene idea.