484 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I didn't mean to imply that Cassandra's romance is somehow inherently superior to Josephine's due to the inclusion of a sex scene. Despite my insistence that the two romances explore similar themes of romance, they do tell different stories. Nor is the simple inclusion of a sex scene the reason I find Cassandra's romance appealing and the lack of one the reason I find Josephine's unappealing.

 

My point was that the inclusion of a sex scene in Cassandra's romance isn't smut. It isn't "pron". It isn't there for titillation. 

I didn't think you meant it like that. You just brought up an interesting discussion point so I wanted to actually make it a discussion. 

As for Cassandra's romance, I can see what you mean. I don't think it required a sex scene to show that aspect, but can understand why they did. 

 

 

As for what a sex scene could or couldn't add to Josephine's romance, that would depend on a variety of things. I don't believe her romance as is would be improved by it, however, as the ambiguity that you appreciate would need to be thrown out the window. Either a scene confirming that her night with the Inquisitor involved them making love and dealing with the full array of emotions that a person's first time entails would need to be established, or it would need to be established firmly that they did not make love on that particular night so that the first time scene can take place at a later point.

 

That's how I'd write the story, anyway, were I to make the decision to explicitly include that instead of leaving it to the viewer's interpretation. 

Yeah, that is the problem. Any potential character development that would come from a sex scene would destroy the purpose of the romance. The cuddle by the fire scene does exactly what any sex scene would have done character development-wise, just it involves them dressed and sitting on a couch rather than laying naked on a bed. 

 

 

You wish for me to repeat myself? Very well, to repost again something from a PM:

 

Not only that, but given Josephine's general personality, along with general past conventions of Bioware games, I never saw any reason to assume we'd started having sex without it coming up. Because, for Josephine, I know that it'd be something important to her; like Leliana and Merrill, she's the romantic sort. How it would happen would be of tremendous emotional importance and is something that I enjoyed seeing in all prior romances, and I feel badly hurt about being unable to do so now, because I know it would have mattered. I don't and will never be able to know her in the way that I knew anyone else I've ever romanced, and I find that horrible.

Being a romantic sort doesn't mean you want sex with someone you've known for just a few months.

And as for it going against past conventions, why is that a bad thing? Having her available to women at all is the result of Bioware going against some of their past conventions.  

 

 

Hardly. If it's player-triggered, you can have any reason you want for not wanting sex.

We already went over this. The options for why your character doesn't want to have sex alone breaks that system if you want it to not be limiting. 

 

 

Then ask for an explicitly asexual romance instead of oozing the implication into someone who isn't.

Actually, when asked on Twitter her writer Sylvia said it is perfectly valid to see Josephine as an abisexual or demibisexual as it is to see her as bisexual.

 

Only for those characters who'd be willing to be in an asexual relationship.

Not wanting to have sex with someone they've known for a few months does not mean someone wants an asexual relationship.

[Charcoal15]

And in your case, they went for the second option, which sucks if Josephine wasn't intended to be asexual.

 

Why not simply create a romance option who's completely asexual if the mere thought of sex disgusts you? Moreover, none of Josephine's romance prior would need to be changed to fill my optional scene idea.

Lets say the make an asexual romance, there will be people who complain about the lack of Sex. As far as we know, Josie is asexual, its just not mentioned. Secondly, the Josie romance would need to be slightly changed for a optional scene, as you would need to add a choice on whether to have sex or not, so my point stands that some would not like this as in the way you put it "the mere thought of sex disgusts" them.

[Xilizhra]

Being a romantic sort doesn't mean you want sex.

And as for it going against past conventions, why is that a bad thing? Having her available to women at all is the result of Bioware going against some of their past conventions. 

No it's not. Queer women are always either soft or shady. And the bit about being romantic was more to say that, were they to have sex, it'd be important and should be seen and roleplayed through. As for conventions...well, those conventions were damn good ones.

 

 

We already went over this. The options for why your character doesn't want to have sex alone breaks that system without it being limiting.

Thus far, I've not seen an argument for this that makes sense. You can have any reason you want for never bringing up sex.

 

 

Actually, when asked on Twitter her writer Sylvia said it is perfectly valid to see Josephine as an abisexual or demibisexual as it is to see her as bisexual.

Explicitly asexual.

 

 

Not wanting to have sex with someone they've known for a few months does not mean someone wants an asexual relationship.

Then don't trigger the scene.

 

 

Lets say the make an asexual romance, there will be people who complain about the lack of Sex.

Yes... and this is what we've got now.

 

 

Secondly, the Josie romance would need to be slightly changed for a optional scene, as you would need to add a choice on whether to have sex or not, so my point stands that some would not like this as in the way you put it "the mere thought of sex disgusts" them.

By that logic, any sexual flirt option anywhere would be just as bad.

[Charcoal15]

At the end of the day, some prefer Josie without sex, some want her to have it, same goes for every companion. Some people like the new combat, some do not. Some like the story, some do not. Its all just opinions, the games what it is, arguing over whether something should be included or not helps no one.

[Xilizhra]

At the end of the day, some prefer Josie without sex, some want her to have it, same goes for every companion. Some people like the new combat, some do not. Some like the story, some do not. Its all just opinions, the games what it is, arguing over whether something should be included or not helps no one.

Feedback is vital and might change things in games to come.

[Charcoal15]

Feedback is vital and might change things in games to come.

People arguing and never coming to a conclusion is not good feedback. If someone tells someone to add a certain flavor to their chocolate, thats good feedback, if they do that but then someone disagrees and a argument breaks out, one which is never settled, that is not good feedback, as the person attempting to get feedback has no idea which one is right.

[Xilizhra]

People arguing and never coming to a conclusion is not good feedback. If someone tells someone to add a certain flavor to their chocolate, thats good feedback, if they do that but then someone disagrees and a argument breaks out, one which is never settled, that is not good feedback, as the person attempting to get feedback has no idea which one is right.

Better than them thinking the wrong thing is right.

[Catche Jagger]

Nudity makes the world go 'round

When it's there, cheers are the only sound!

Actually, that's not true, for you see

There is absolutely no way to avoid controversy

 

Lo, one cries

"Everyone has sex in this game! Why?"

So then some sex is left ambiguous, appeasing that guy

But yet another calls out, with great indignation

"Lack of sex here breaks equal representation."

 

Where does one draw the line?

What is unwelcome? What is fine?

I simply know it will only get worse

If we keep beating this dead horse.

[Former_Fiend]

I didn't think you meant it like that. You just brought up an interesting discussion point so I wanted to actually make it a discussion. 

As for Cassandra's romance, I can see what you mean. I don't think it required a sex scene to show that aspect, but can understand why they did. 

 

 

 

Sometimes what's shown can be more powerful than what's implied, though the opposite is true just as often, admittedly.

 

Ultimately, though, I just don't see a reason not to show the sex scene when ambiguity isn't what's intended. The game is intended for adults. There's nothing wrong with it. Showing sexuality in a positive manner is a shocking rare thing. 

[Charcoal15]

Better than them thinking the wrong thing is right.

Say a bioware employee reads over this thinking that the Josie romance is fine without sex, the see your point of view and doubt themselves, they see Kallen Kozukis point of view and because of this, ignore your point of view, then leave. Thus the argument has assisted no one, as they saw an opinion, then saw an opposite opinion, then left not knowing what to believe as both comments that were meant to be feedback disagree with eachother.

[Xilizhra]

Say a bioware employee reads over this thinking that the Josie romance is fine without sex, the see your point of view and doubt themselves, they see Kallen Kozukis point of view and because of this, ignore your point of view, then leave. Thus the argument has assisted no one, as they saw an opinion, then saw an opposite opinion, then left not knowing what to believe as both comments that were meant to be feedback disagree with eachother.

Then this outcome is no worse than if they had just believed the first comment without my reply.

[Charcoal15]

Nudity makes the world go 'round

When it's there, cheers are the only sound!

Actually, that's not true, for you see

There is absolutely no way to avoid controversy

 

Lo, one cries

"Everyone has sex in this game! Why?"

So then some sex is left ambiguous, appeasing that guy

But yet another calls out, with great indignation

"Lack of sex here breaks equal representation."

 

Where does one draw the line?

What is unwelcome? What is fine?

I simply know it will only get worse

If we keep beating this dead horse.

You were doing so well until the last two lines failing to rhyme.

[Ianamus]

I can see why people would be annoyed with the romance being deliberately vague on the sexual front, because it likely means that all future DLC or entries in the series will also keep it vague. And that can be annoying if you want the relationship to be a sexual one or like the idea of your Inqusitor and Josephine going off to Antiva and having a family.

 

That doesn't mean that the romance we had in-game actually needed a sex scene or explicit reference to the two having sex though. And I don't think it would have added enough to the romance to justify replacing one of the existing scenes.

 

A dialogue option addressing what your Inquisitor wants from the relationship might have been a good idea. I appreciate that it would be have been difficult to write a conversation like that which didn't feel out of place though. 

[Charcoal15]

Then this outcome is no worse than if they had just believed the first comment without my reply.

But you see why the argument was pointless do you not? They will leave confused and will stick to whatever they first thought as everyone else can not make their minds up, thus the argument was pointless as nobody could agree and suitable feedback was not given.

[Xilizhra]

But you see why the argument was pointless do you not? They will leave confused and will stick to whatever they first thought as everyone else can not make their minds up, thus the argument was pointless as nobody could agree and suitable feedback was not given.

Then we may as well shut down the forum altogether, because unanimity is... just not happening. Ever.

[Catche Jagger]

You were doing so well until the last two lines failing to rhyme.

I pronounce worse weird

Just pretend that's true and it's all good

[Charcoal15]

Then we may as well shut down the forum altogether, because unanimity is... just not happening. Ever.

No, because the forums are for sharing opinion, as we have done, so the forum has done its job. However you said that we needed this because feedback is vital, and this is not good feedback, so if we had this argument just to provide good feedback, then we failed and the argument was pointless as we could not give good feedback due to disagreements. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

No it's not. Queer women are always either soft or shady. And the bit about being romantic was more to say that, were they to have sex, it'd be important and should be seen and roleplayed through. As for conventions...well, those conventions were damn good ones.

So conventions you agree with are good, and the ones you don't are bad?

 

Thus far, I've not seen an argument for this that makes sense. You can have any reason you want for never bringing up sex.

Thus far, you're argument for them giving two choices to something that has infinite variables also don't make sense unless you limit the variables. The only way to not do that is to have so many dialogue options that there are no resources for anything else. 

 

Explicitly asexual.

So people who want a romance that doesn't involve sleeping with someone they know for a few months should just suck it up until they have a "Hello, I'm asexual!" romance? And ignoring that, how does that help those who aren't asexual yet want a romance without sex scenes? 

 

Then don't trigger the scene.

For six of the eight LIs, the people I was talking about, you have no choice in the matter of triggering it other than not pursuing them as LIs. 

 

 

 

Sometimes what's shown can be more powerful than what's implied, though the opposite is true just as often, admittedly.

 

Ultimately, though, I just don't see a reason not to show the sex scene when ambiguity isn't what's intended. The game is intended for adults. There's nothing wrong with it. Showing sexuality in a positive manner is a shocking rare thing. 

Except ambiguity was what's intended. There are six romances in the game showing sex. Why not have one for the adults who don't want to see it yet experience romance? 

[Xilizhra]

Thus far, you're argument for them giving two choices to something that has infinite variables also don't make sense unless you limit the variables. The only way to not do that is to have so many dialogue options that there are no resources for anything else. 

Dialogue tree. One option to have a sex scene. One option to have a nonsex romantic scene. No true elaboration is necessary. Nonsex romantic scene can be identical to the scene we've already got.

 

 

So people who want a romance that doesn't involve sleeping with someone they know for a few months should just suck it up until they have a "Hello, I'm asexual!" romance? And ignoring that, how does that help those who aren't asexual yet want a romance without sex scenes?

They do what I've tried to explain at least three times now already?

 

 

For six of the eight LIs, the people I was talking about, you have no choice in the matter of triggering it other than not pursuing them as LIs. 

Objection, relevance?

 

 

Except ambiguity was what's intended. There are six romances in the game showing sex. Why not have one for the adults who don't want to see it yet experience romance? 

Because now lesbians are screwed, assuming they both like sex and dislike bigoted lunatics.

[Former_Fiend]

 

 

So conventions you agree with are good, and the ones you don't are bad?

 

Thus far, you're argument for them giving two choices to something that has infinite variables also don't make sense unless you limit the variables. The only way to not do that is to have so many dialogue options that there are no resources for anything else. 

 

So people who want a romance that doesn't involve sleeping with someone they know for a few months should just suck it up until they have a "Hello, I'm asexual!" romance? And ignoring that, how does that help those who aren't asexual yet want a romance without sex scenes? 

 

For six of the eight LIs, the people I was talking about, you have no choice in the matter of triggering it other than not pursuing them as LIs. 

 

 

Except ambiguity was what's intended. There are six romances in the game showing sex. Why not have one for the adults who don't want to see it yet experience romance? 

 

 

I know ambiguity is what's intended with Josephine's romance. That's why I put that line in there. That ambiguity is the intention is all the reason they need. I'm ultimately agreeing with you that her romance, as written, would not benefit from the sudden injection of a sex scene.

 

Ambiguity is very much not the intention of Cassandra's romance, hence, no reason not to show what was shown.

 

That being said, I'm curious if you wouldn't prefer a romance where the lack of sex wasn't implicit. This isn't a suggestion for how to compromise on the Josephine romance, but rather brainstorming a romance for a future game.

 

How would you feel about a romance where, at a certain point, you had an explicit option whether or not to have sex or not have sex while continuing the relationship, where choosing to have sex would give a romantic sex scene and choosing not to would give a no less romantic but non sexual scene? Would you prefer that, being able to explicitly make and declare that choice, to Josephine's ambiguity?

[Knight-Enchanter Lavellan]

It seems that the crux of the argument for sex scenes of some capacity stems from the desire to see, or at least have the game directly (or optionally visually) acknowledge a deep passion between Josephine and the Inquisitor.

 

Its not necessarily about a sex scene displaying nudity as much as a show of the connection the Inquisitor and Josephine share; realized through the fact that they were willing to come together in a heat of passion and share that sort of intimate moment between one another.

 

In this case I advocate that the choice of a sex scene occurring be in the hands of a player through dialogue choices and references to said scene could come from whether or not the option was selected.

[Altanius]

For those of you saying that you prefer Josie's romance because of the asexuality, you may want to find a different line of argument. While there's no sex in her romance there's literally nothing to indicate she's asexual and more than a few things to indicate she is very much interested in having sex and just hasn't done it yet.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Dialogue tree. One option to have a sex scene. One option to have a nonsex romantic scene. No true elaboration is necessary. Nonsex romantic scene can be identical to the scene we've already got.

The characters would have to have dialogue with the choice selected, which means determining why they do or do not want to have sex. 

 

They do what I've tried to explain at least three times now already?

You mean the thing that wouldn't work? 

 

Objection, relevance?

Charcoal said that if Josephine gets the option to have sex shown, then the other LIs should get the option to not have sex yet continue the relationship. You then chimed in and replied that it should only be for those characters who are interested in an asexual relationship. I then pointed out how just because someone doesn't want to have sex with someone they've known only a few months doesn't mean they are asexual, to which you replied that one shouldn't choose them then. 

 

So to turn that around, if you don't like that Josephine doesn't have a sex scene, don't choose the romance. 

 

Because now lesbians are screwed, assuming they both like sex and dislike bigoted lunatics.

There is nothing to insinuate that Josephine doesn't have sex with you. If not seeing their naked bodies against each other means that to the person they don't have sex, then that's on the person not the developers.

 

I know ambiguity is what's intended with Josephine's romance. That's why I put that line in there. That ambiguity is the intention is all the reason they need. I'm ultimately agreeing with you that her romance, as written, would not benefit from the sudden injection of a sex scene.

 

Ambiguity is very much not the intention of Cassandra's romance, hence, no reason not to show what was shown.

Ah, my apologies. I misread your line in that you were saying ambiguity wasn't what was intended for Josephine rather than another theoretical romance.

 

 

That being said, I'm curious if you wouldn't prefer a romance where the lack of sex wasn't implicit. This isn't a suggestion for how to compromise on the Josephine romance, but rather brainstorming a romance for a future game.

 

How would you feel about a romance where, at a certain point, you had an explicit option whether or not to have sex or not have sex while continuing the relationship, where choosing to have sex would give a romantic sex scene and choosing not to would give a no less romantic but non sexual scene? Would you prefer that, being able to explicitly make and declare that choice, to Josephine's ambiguity?

It would really depends on how the character and romance plot is presented, I think. There are some where that could work, and some where it wouldn't feel right.

[Altanius]

And Kallen, Xil has repeatedly expressed the idea of a player activated sex scene. That seems to be an option that would give all interested parties what they want. We call it compromise.