150 réponses à ce sujet

[Incantrix]

As elven hater I disagree.

So, now you're proving that chevaliers and their fans are just full of hate and blood lust? 

 

I must say. You're not making a case for them. 

[Roamingmachine]

How about lets first get rid of the "kill and elf and you can join us" requirement. 

That would be part of the 'relinquishing the privileges' bit. Also the 'vigorously and publicly pursue those criminals' bit.  I just didn't itemize them because chevaliers are given a stupid amount of freedom to do as they wish and they have been rather prolific in their abuses. That particular bit is just one of them.

As they now stand, the Chevaliers are rather loathsome bunch. But i believe that if the order starts to actually follow the chivalric code and purge the scum from its ranks, it can be redeemed. Call me romantic, but i just want to see one knightly order to be staffed by actual knights instead of bags of dren and do some good.

As elven hater I disagree.

 

....We won't be friends

[ladyofpayne]

So, now you're proving that chevaliers and their fans are just full of hate and blood lust? 

 

I must say. You're not making a case for them. 

Not. I just don't like elves. Too much of them in fantasy.

[ladyofpayne]

So, guys have you found more character that Gaspard and Michel?

[rpgfan321]

I like their armor and their devotion to the chevalier code. But mostly for their armor.

[ladyofpayne]

Jean - Mark Strous is too chevalier.

[SgtSteel91]

So is the Champion spec just you getting trained in the ways of the Chevalier?

[Lord_Caledore]

As I understand it, the elf-killing is not some formal test or requirement of initiation - it's more like a fraternity hazing, and it stands to reason that not all Chevaliers go through with it or even presented with the opportunity to do so. Not every Chevalier abuses their power, though it appears to be pretty rampant.

 

I haven't read Stolen Throne however, so if someone can quote a particular line that shows it IS an absolute requirement, I'll retract my statement.

[errantknight]

edit:nm, didn't realize how old this was. point no longer applies

[Dean_the_Young]

Every single one of them has to murder a city elf as part of their initiation, so yes all of them are at the very least murderers.

 

You know, I'm honestly surprised they didn't bring that up in DAI. Or the whole 'get to do whatever they want with peasants' thing.

 

Seems kinda relevant to Orlais. It'd be like going to Tevinter and never including a Magister who uses blood magi or demonology.

[BioWareM0d13]

So, guys have you found more character that Gaspard and Michel?

 

Stroud, who would be my favorite Chevalier.

 

He's a Grey Warden of course, but in DA:I you can ask him about his pre-Joining backstory. He mentions that he was a Chevalier.

[Lukas Trevelyan]

Are there any codex enteries regarding chevaliers in DA:I? I can't seem to find any o.O

[herkles]

You know, I'm honestly surprised they didn't bring that up in DAI. Or the whole 'get to do whatever they want with peasants' thing.

 

Seems kinda relevant to Orlais. It'd be like going to Tevinter and never including a Magister who uses blood magi or demonology.

Part of the reason why we don't see more of them, is we don't really see much urban areas. If we had more areas like crestwood but for orlais we should have seen more of them.

 

I kind of think they should have focused on just Orlais, just like origins had the blight focused on Fereldan. We should have had more urban areas to see more of Orlais society.

[Itkovian]

I support the OP. It would be good to see more of the Chevaliers, and examples of good Chevaliers.

 

Concerning their privileges, they're basically like those of the Samurai. This means there are frightful excesses, but that doesn't mean all Chevaliers are bad... all you've need is a small minority to get that sort of reputation going (heck, this is the BW forums, we know how much noise a tiny minority can make *grin*).

 

The main concern is the "must kill an elf" thing... which begs the question: What is the source of that claim? How reliable is it? I sure didn't see anything about that in DAI, and that's THE Dragon Age game dealing with Orlais. More citations needed.

[Master Warder Z_]

I really enjoy that questline for the Marshal in the Dales.

 

He seems like a good chevalier.

[Itkovian]

You know, I'm honestly surprised they didn't bring that up in DAI. Or the whole 'get to do whatever they want with peasants' thing.

 

Seems kinda relevant to Orlais. It'd be like going to Tevinter and never including a Magister who uses blood magi or demonology.

 

The "get to do whatever they want with peasants" thing is really nothing special. Common in many caste societies. Basically they're like european Samurai.

 

It's the "must murder a city elf to be a chevalier" that I think needs more citations. Sounds more like an exargeration than something widespread. For one thing, I doubt Val Royaux could have supported an Alienage if its highest school of military training periodically used it as a hunting ground.

 

Granted, I'm sure there are sick and depraved Chevaliers who would do taht sort of thing.. but all of them? Doubtful.

[BioWareM0d13]

The custom or murdering an elf while the Chevaliers are squires(?) seems to be based on the Spartan Krypteia. 

 

 

 

In ancient Sparta, Krypteia or Crypteia (Greek: κρυπτεία krupteía from κρυπτός kruptós, "hidden, secret things") was a state institution involving young Spartan men. Its goal and nature are still a matter of discussion and debate among historians. Some scholars (Wallon) consider the krypteia to be a kind of secret police and state security force organized by the ruling classes of Sparta whose purpose was to terrorize the servile helot population.

 

 

 

Certain young Spartan men who had completed their training at the agoge with such success that they were marked out as potential future leaders would be given the opportunity to test their skills and prove themselves worthy of the Spartan polity through participation in the Krypteia.

 

Every autumn, according to Plutarch (Life of Lycurgus, 28, 3–7), the Spartan ephors would pro forma declare war on the helot population so that any Spartan citizen could kill a helot without fear of punishment. At night, the chosen kryptes (members of the Krypteia) were sent out into the Laconian countryside armed with knives with the instructions to kill any helot they encountered and to take any food they needed.

 

According to Cartledge, Krypteia members stalked the helot villages and surrounding countryside, spying on the servile population. Their mission was to prevent and suppress unrest and rebellion. Troublesome helots could be summarily executed. Such brutal repression of the helots permitted the Spartan élite to successfully control the servile agrarian population and devote themselves to military practice. It may also have contributed to the Spartans' reputation for stealth since a kryptes who got caught was punished by whipping.

 

Only Spartans who had served in the Krypteia as young men could expect to achieve the highest ranks in Spartan society and army. It was felt that only those Spartans who showed the willingness and ability to kill for the state at a young age were worthy to join the leadership in later years.

 

Plato (Laws, I, 633), a scholiast to Plato, and Heraclides Lembos (Fr. Hist. Gr., II, 210) also describe the krypteia.

 

Krypteia

[ladyofpayne]

 

 

What is the source of that claim?

Michle de Chevin said it and we have dagger Knight' death or something.

[Itkovian]

Michle de Chevin said it and we have dagger Knight' death or something.

 

Could we have more details?

 

How does that work? How _could_ it work, if it actually were systematic? I find it difficult to fathom how a the Val Royaux alienage could survive being regularly culled but every new class of chevalier if it were a thing every one of them actually had to do. At the least there would be revolts, or an exodus of elves (remember, alienages aren't ACTUALLY prison camps... elves can still flee the place and seek elsewhere to live... it's a very hard thing to do, but if my home was used as a hunting ground by the local military academy, I would move *grin*).

 

Hunting down a Dalish elf would make more sense, logistically speaking.

 

And, of course, if it were actually systematic, it's very strange there's no mention at all in DAI. Maybe they're backing away from that notion (or Michel is just wrong, and it's not as widespread as he believes/claims).

[The Baconer]

Could we have more details?

 

How does that work? How _could_ it work, if it actually were systematic? I find it difficult to fathom how a the Val Royaux alienage could survive being regularly culled but every new class of chevalier if it were a thing every one of them actually had to do. At the least there would be revolts, or an exodus of elves (remember, alienages aren't ACTUALLY prison camps... elves can still flee the place and seek elsewhere to live... it's a very hard thing to do, but if my home was used as a hunting ground by the local military academy, I would move *grin*).

 

Basically, they get super drunk and are sent into the Alienage to kill elves that are out past curfew.

 

 

And, of course, if it were actually systematic, it's very strange there's no mention at all in DAI.

 

There is, as part of an item description. The events in said description took place in the Black Age, so the practice has been going on for at least 500 years, if not more.

[Itkovian]

Basically, they get super drunk and are sent into the Alienage to kill elves that are out past curfew.

 

There is, as part of an item description. The events in said description took place in the Black Age, so the practice has been going on for at least 500 years, if not more.

 

And every chevaliers have to do this? Get a kill or don't get promoted?

 

That's a surprisingly placid Alienage, I admit. I guess if it's limited to those breaking curfew its a bit more reasonable (there's a way to avoid it, and it's no longer a question of chevaliers going in at whatever time and harvesting the place).

 

Still seems strange, I wonder how widespread it actually is, and how constant.

 

Though it's nice to see that Dragon Age addresses how evil frat houses can be.

[The Baconer]

And every chevaliers have to do this? Get a kill or don't get promoted?

 

I wouldn't be surprised if almost all of them participate, but I doubt actually killing an elf is required, or at there's nothing to suggest it is.

 

 

Still seems strange, I wonder how widespread it actually is, and how constant.

 

Though it's nice to see that Dragon Age addresses how evil frat houses can be.

 

Just another reason to kick Orlesians in the teeth whenever one can.

[SgtSteel91]

And every chevaliers have to do this? Get a kill or don't get promoted?

 

That's a surprisingly placid Alienage, I admit. I guess if it's limited to those breaking curfew its a bit more reasonable (there's a way to avoid it, and it's no longer a question of chevaliers going in at whatever time and harvesting the place).

 

Still seems strange, I wonder how widespread it actually is, and how constant.

 

Though it's nice to see that Dragon Age addresses how evil frat houses can be.

 

There's a codex entry about an elf who went on a killing spree, taking out Chevaliers for doing this exact thing.

[BioWareM0d13]

A song for the Chevaliers

 

 

(not really..but it could be minus one reference to a cross)

[ladyofpayne]

Yes that surprise me too- Aliengaes should revolt regularly like it was in City elf origin. I just don't believe that elves would accept that but Codex sais othervise.