169 réponses à ce sujet

[Treacherous J Slither]

Actually, it's only most Fereldans who can't read or write (I can't remember why, but I would guess it's due to being under Orlesian dominance for so long and most of the nation being rural farmland as opposed to urban sprawl). Orlesians are largely wealthy (and thus have access to educations), and Free Marchers all come from independent city-states (so it's impossible to get an idea for them).

 

I'm unaware of any public schools in Thedas so I imagine that the only people who learn how to read and write are those with the money to hire tutors for their children or individuals who pass it on to others that they befriend or work with or whatever. Still I doubt it's very common. But hey, i'm probably wrong because so many people in DAI are writing letters and notes and sending me on fetch quests as a result so...

[EmissaryofLies]

Mages could leave Circle even in Kirkwall, Orsino says so outright in "Best Served Cold."

 

He was talking about mages sneaking out at night to collude with Thrask's Templars.

[The Baconer]

Actually, it's only most Fereldans who can't read or write (I can't remember why, but I would guess it's due to being under Orlesian dominance for so long and most of the nation being rural farmland as opposed to urban sprawl). Orlesians are largely wealthy (and thus have access to educations), and Free Marchers all come from independent city-states (so it's impossible to get an idea for them).

No. Even in Orlais peasants are, for the most part, illiterate.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Point is that there are rules and laws to be obeyed EVERYWHERE, and you get punished for not following them. The Circle is an institution where the magically gifted can learn about and control their powers. They represent a very real danger, which cannot be ignored.

 

The Circles are also full of checks and balances which are supposed to counter any abuse. And they generally also did. Except in the Gallows, where BOTH the mages and Templars were at fault.

 

The mages are not granted the same rights as others. They are not free to come and go. Even after passing these bs tests. I'm fine with rules and laws as long as they are fair and just for all. This is not so in Thedas and especially so in the Circles.

 

The checks and balances present in the Circle are designed with the welfare of the mundanes in mind and not the mages themselves. The Rite Of Annulment is wrong. The Harrowing is wrong. Not allowing a trained mage to leave is wrong. Using the Templars as prison guards and not cops is wrong. Not allowing mages to join the Templars is wrong. None of that is fair and just.

 

I believe the mages of the Gallows weren't at fault because I have no problem with blood magic. How can any progress be made to combat blood magic if no one researches it? The Litany Of Adralla didn't come about on it's own. If an oppressed person cries out against their oppression and the response is even more oppression then the situation only gets worse. Coming to a compromise is the only solution.

[EmissaryofLies]

Woah woah woah woah........WOAH!

 

Slow down; this is the part where people argue about who is at fault and who has it worse. We come to "compromise" around page 15 at this pace.

[TheChosenOne]

Down with the Circles

 

[EmperorSahlertz]

The mages are not granted the same rights as others. They are not free to come and go. Even after passing these bs tests. I'm fine with rules and laws as long as they are fair and just for all. This is not so in Thedas and especially so in the Circles.

 

 

No one is free to come and go as they please in Thedas. Just look at the casteless or alienage Elves. Even the peasants are bound to the land they work (if they leave they will starve). The mages are granted a hot bed, three square meals a day, and a shelter from storm and hail, for free. Not a dime has to be paid on the side of the mages.

 

The checks and balances present in the Circle are designed with the welfare of the mundanes in mind and not the mages themselves. The Rite Of Annulment is wrong. The Harrowing is wrong. Not allowing a trained mage to leave is wrong. Using the Templars as prison guards and not cops is wrong. Not allowing mages to join the Templars is wrong. None of that is fair and just.

 

They are just as much designed to keep the mages safe, as they are the rest of the world. The Harrowing exist to weed out those amges that would, if natural selection had its run of things, would have otherwise posed an intolerable threat to everyone around them. The Right of Annulment exists, so that if a catastrophic event in the Circles are to happen, the Templars can act to contain it. The mages cannot join the Templars mostly because the abilities are not something a mage can learn, apparently, and because sending mages to fight demons is, lorewise speaking, one of the absolutely worst ideas imaginable.

 

I believe the mages of the Gallows weren't at fault because I have no problem with blood magic. How can any progress be made to combat blood magic if no one researches it? The Litany Of Adralla didn't come about on it's own. If an oppressed person cries out against their oppression and the response is even more oppression then the situation only gets worse. Coming to a compromise is the only solution.

 

 

You can study Blood Magic without being a blood mage, the Templars have done that for decades.

 

And we don't know what came first in Kirkwall. The oppression or the insubordination. Either way, both parties are guilty.

[Treacherous J Slither]

 

 

No one is free to come and go as they please in Thedas. Just look at the casteless or alienage Elves. Even the peasants are bound to the land they work (if they leave they will starve). The mages are granted a hot bed, three square meals a day, and a shelter from storm and hail, for free. Not a dime has to be paid on the side of the mages.

 

They are just as much designed to keep the mages safe, as they are the rest of the world. The Harrowing exist to weed out those amges that would, if natural selection had its run of things, would have otherwise posed an intolerable threat to everyone around them. The Right of Annulment exists, so that if a catastrophic event in the Circles are to happen, the Templars can act to contain it. The mages cannot join the Templars mostly because the abilities are not something a mage can learn, apparently, and because sending mages to fight demons is, lorewise speaking, one of the absolutely worst ideas imaginable.

 

You can study Blood Magic without being a blood mage, the Templars have done that for decades.

 

And we don't know what came first in Kirkwall. The oppression or the insubordination. Either way, both parties are guilty.

 

 

I already said that there are unfair and unjust laws in Thedas. Not just in the Circles. The mages may have certain things but others are taken away. Like their children and their freedom. A peasant has a lot stacked against him but he can still do far more than your average Circle mage. Also, this shelter and meals and such are provided against the mages will since many do not ask to be there in the first place. Prisoners don't often have to pay for their imprisonment.

 

The Harrowing is completely unnecessary. If a mage is trained to be able to fend off demons so that on the off chance that they ever actually encounter one they would be able to handle themselves then why is it necessary to force them into a confrontation with one? Especially since even a well trained mage can slip? Better to simply train them and hope for the best. In the unfortunate event that something bad happens then send the Templars out to handle it. Templars made up of mages and mundanes. Mages can do everything the Templars can do. There are plenty of anti magic abilities in the magical schools available to mages. Mages can summon and control demons. Templars cannot. Demons can possess mundanes as well as mages. Mages are simply higher in demand due to their strong connection to the Fade.

 

Templars are very susceptible to blood magic. Far more so than regular mana based magic. All their study of this school has availed them nothing. They cannot prevent a blood mage from casting. Only mana based mages. All of their Templar abilities are only effective against mana based spells. Who can better understand blood magic than the one able to cast it? A mundane can only observe. Both mages and mundanes need to work together to advance the knowledge and usage of magic and the Fade. This current division only halts progress.

 

To expect someone wrongfully imprisoned to be okay with their situation is foolishness. I believe that training for mages is absolutely needed but to treat mages the way they've been treated and then to be surprised with their reaction makes no sense. When the Circles were first formed I highly doubt that the mages weren't able to leave or have families. Speaking of which, what was going on with mages at that time exactly? Surely there were far more wild mages than currently. Yet i've read no codex that described those times as horrible and demon infested. Guess mage freedom isn't really such a terrible thing.

[Bleachrude]

There's no contradiction since even in DA:O, this was shown. There's another mage that apparently had a lot of contact with their family besides Cassandra (and potentially an Inquisitor mage)

 

Isolde mentions that her grandfather was a mage and kind of a jerk to her and everyone else and isolde attributes this to him being a mage. So there's ANOTHER example of a Circle mage having a family.

 

Are you from a noble/high ranking memeber of the merchant class (Finn's full name sounds like he's merchant class) then pretty much the only reason you don't have contact with your family is if your family isnt interested in staying in contact.

 

Even outside of nobles, in DA:O we have Ines, the senior enchanter leading the mages to show that you don't need to be a noble and or attached to a hero.  The reason why Anders was constantly captured was because Anders a) was escaping even before his harrowing as Finn mentioned and Anders probably believes he should not need the permission of the First Enchanter to leave the circle.

 

As an aside, if you DO conscript the mages, don't they complain endlessly about the state of the living conditions even though looking at Skyhold, there living conditions seem fine?

[Bleachrude]

Er, I don't think the Harrowing is "unneccesary".

 

IIRC, as per World of Thedas, the Harrowing was created by the Tevinters and the Tevinters to this day STILL use the harrowing ritual.

[Treacherous J Slither]

There's no contradiction since even in DA:O, this was shown. There's another mage that apparently had a lot of contact with their family besides Cassandra (and potentially an Inquisitor mage)

 

Isolde mentions that her grandfather was a mage and kind of a jerk to her and everyone else and isolde attributes this to him being a mage. So there's ANOTHER example of a Circle mage having a family.

 

Are you from a noble/high ranking memeber of the merchant class (Finn's full name sounds like he's merchant class) then pretty much the only reason you don't have contact with your family is if your family isnt interested in staying in contact.

 

Even outside of nobles, in DA:O we have Ines, the senior enchanter leading the mages to show that you don't need to be a noble and or attached to a hero.  The reason why Anders was constantly captured was because Anders a) was escaping even before his harrowing as Finn mentioned and Anders probably believes he should not need the permission of the First Enchanter to leave the circle.

 

As an aside, if you DO conscript the mages, don't they complain endlessly about the state of the living conditions even though looking at Skyhold, there living conditions seem fine?

 

Mages need permission for a lot of the things mundanes don't need permission for. Circles should simply be like public schools. Learn during the day and then return home to get ready for the next day. When you're done with the needed training you graduate and are no longer required to attend school. Some can be home schooled by those with the needed know how. If something unfortunate happens the Templars show up and handle it. Easy peasy. Everyone wins.

 

Instead there's an oppressive prison system in place that people are automatically going to rail against. This can be avoided simply by adhering to my school idea.

 

I heard about some mage whining about his living conditions but I don't attribute that to all of them or even the majority since the rebel mages were living in far worse conditions than anything they have to deal with as members of my army. The whiny mage and those of like mind are in the minority i'm sure. Even if he was one of the loyal mages who was living it up with Vivi. They don't speak for all or even most.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Er, I don't think the Harrowing is "unneccesary".

 

IIRC, as per World of Thedas, the Harrowing was created by the Tevinters and the Tevinters to this day STILL use the harrowing ritual.

 

They also use slaves. **** Tevinter.

[Vit246]

Er, I don't think the Harrowing is "unneccesary".

 

IIRC, as per World of Thedas, the Harrowing was created by the Tevinters and the Tevinters to this day STILL use the harrowing ritual.

The Harrowing itself is not the problem, its the Andrastian style of it. Mages are not really taught much about demons and the Fade and they're kept in the dark about what exactly the Harrowing is until its their turn, causing a lot of psychological anxiety and emotional instability in a mage.

[Ryzaki]

But that seems odd because my Mage Trevelyan knew  a lot about noble customs and even remarked how the ball reminded him of home.  It doesn't seem like he was taken to the Circle as a child or the Circle was all he knew. But maybe it's a story thing, something a Trevelyan would talk about no matter what class they were.

 

You can say to Josie as a mage that you visited home often.

 

I guess that's where they picked up everything.

[Medhia_Nox]

Are we still clinging to the whole:  "The mages didn't make a giant mistake." argument? 

 

Cause they did - they allowed valid complaints to become mass hysteria.  And allowed Fiona to...

 

Spoiler

 

Sell them to Tevinter when she realized it...

 

Honestly - they're like the BSN.

[Steelcan]

Letting mages use the Circle only as a place of learning, with no real templar supervision, and no authority but their own has historically worked wonders...

[Hazegurl]

Fenriyal leaves Kirkwall's Circle and travel to Tevinter.

 

I forgot that the Venatori was in Redcliffe because of Cory.  It doesn't seem to matter whether Cory intervened or not, the mages still would have been bad off. Their desperation is the reason they turned to the Venatori. They certainly weren't in a winning position.

[Vit246]

To be honest, I feel like inconsistent writing is quite common in the series in general.

 

It's either a deliberate way to show different perceptions, or the writers should talk more.

*EDIT*

Inconsistency. I think this is whats bothering me lately with Dragon Age.

If things were really really not so bad after all, then why did all these things with the mages and templars and chantry happen?

[raging_monkey]

Inconsistency. I think this is whats bothering me lately with Dragon Age.If things are really not so bad after all, then why did the mage rebellion happen the way it did? Why did the Circles vote to separate from the Chantry and thus the Templars? Why anything?

reasons lol

[Vit246]

Letting mages use the Circle only as a place of learning, with no real templar supervision, and no authority but their own has historically worked wonders...

And with "real templar supervision" from the old system, you had a considerable number of mages being abused, turned insane, turned into blood mages, turned into abominations, resorting to desperate measures to escape, etc. etc.

Lets face it, the templar supervision from the old system practically turned many mages into the enemies and monsters that the templars fear.

[Steelcan]

And with "real templar supervision" from the old system, you had a considerable number of mages being abused, turned insane, turned into blood mages, turned into abominations, resorting to desperate measures to escape, etc. etc.

Lets face it, the templar supervision from the old system practically turned many mages into the enemies and monsters that the templars fear.

and the templars in Tevinter can't even block spells

[Medhia_Nox]

Life is inconsistent - it's the "new intelligent" that is to blame.

 

Real life is not "literal fact-base science" - humans are consistently inconsistent and so are their rules, laws, morals, beliefs, standards, mores, taboos, etc.

 

EDIT:  People in real life whip themselves up into mob violence all the time for the belief of a good idea. 

 

I'd argue that for someone like Spartacus - being the equivalent of a ancient world rockstar (successful gladiators were quite beloved) was, in hindsight, better than being crucified along the empire's roads.  And yet - rebel he did.  And condemned a lot of people with him.

[The Baconer]

Inconsistency. I think this is whats bothering me lately with Dragon Age.

If things were really really not so bad after all, then why did all these things with the mages and templars and chantry happen?

 

It happened because of a general misunderstanding of why the Circle at Kirkwall failed, and the implementation of policies in an attempt to prevent it from happening again in another Circle. Of course, these policies only backfired, achieving the opposite effect.

 

Basically, the Seekers are shitlords and can't do anything right.

[raging_monkey]

Life is inconsistent - it's the "new intelligent" that is to blame. Real life is not "literal fact-base science" - humans are consistently inconsistent and so are their rules, laws, morals, beliefs, standards, mores, taboos, etc.

DAI reenforced this statment imo its not as simple as Y is Y but more Y is Y but is also Z and X

[Vit246]

It happened because of a general misunderstanding of why the Circle at Kirkwall failed, and the implementation of policies in an attempt to prevent it from happening again in another Circle. Of course, these policies only backfired, achieving the opposite effect.

 

Basically, the Seekers are shitlords and can't do anything right.

Not just the Seekers, but the Templars and Chantry as well.

Seekers are supposed to be the Internal Affairs of the Templars but they failed spectacularly at Kirkwall. And at Orlais.

The Templar answer to mage dissent is to disband the semblance of mage political / legal authority and even further restrict freedoms causing more mages to cry out for freedoms. Its a vicious cycle.

Its like what Princess Leia says: "The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."

And the Chantry, which is basically the political and economic support of these two, fail to rein them in and make them do their jobs properly. They had the political influence, the money, the logistical supplies, and the lyrium, and they still failed. Such impotence.