@Vit246: You'd be right if you put the mages in your little blame circle somewhere.
Mages who don't blame the mages for anything - are actually why the mages in Thedas chose to make their horribly poor choices.
Mages = selfishness (yes, it is selfish to be irresponsible with power - that you were born with it, is not the fault of everyone else)
Templars = tyranny
Chantry = fear
idk if its that simple. You had lambert a political/military hardass and then you had fiona a political enigma that sought reforms. And with justina trying to impliment her reforms caused a giant power vaccum on all sides. Its all of their fault and i say this as a pro mage. Its not that simpleNot just the Seekers, but the Templars and Chantry as well.Seekers are supposed to be the Internal Affairs of the Templars but they failed spectacularly at Kirkwall. And at Orlais.The Templar answer to mage dissent is to disband the semblance of mage political / legal authority and even further restrict freedoms causing more mages to cry out for freedoms. Its a vicious cycle.Its like what Princess Leia says: "[/size]The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."[/size]And the Chantry, which is basically the political and economic support of these two, fail to rein them in and make them do their jobs properly. They had the political influence, the money, the logistical supplies, and the lyrium, and they still failed. Such impotence.
@Vit246: You'd be right if you put the mages in your little blame circle somewhere.
Mages who don't blame the mages for anything - are actually why the mages in Thedas chose to make their horribly poor choices.
Mages = selfishness (yes, it is selfish to be irresponsible with power - that you were born with it, is not the fault of everyone else)
Elaborate.
We've known about it but it was never given primary focus because it went against the message of showing the Templar as evil oppressors, now that they've given the player the option to eradicate whoever they dislike, they've decided to throw everything into the game itself.
@Vit246: There is no real world equivalent - so I'll try to make something up.
If you were born hearing voices, and feeling like something was trying to invade your body - you would have a very real world mental illness. A very terrifying experience made worse because the vast majority of people can't identify with you.
Now - let's also say you are born a pyromaniac as well. Another mental illness - this time, also very dangerous.
NOW - let's give you a flamethrower.
Maybe for a few months you don't hear the voices. Then - maybe you can block out the voices telling you to burn... Burn... BURN! But eventually - you won't be able to.
Now - let's say a doctor comes along and provides you with: "Illness be gone." You'll have to take it every day for the rest of your life at the most inconvenient times regardless of whether or not you want to.
Here is the questions:
If you chose not to take your pills - and you burn down a home with children in it - were you not selfish and irresponsible because you did not want to own the burdens you were born with?
Would you not want a known schizophrenic pyromaniac living next door to you to be FORCED to take his pills - even if he hasn't yet burned down your house?
====
The mages state over and over from DA:O to DA:I (and all the books in between) that they are always being challenged by demons - and, since they come with flamethrowers -
Do you not think they should FORCE themselves to take the proper training to make themselves safe to themselves and everyone around them?
The mages of Thedas show no signs of take responsibility for themselves - all they think about is having everything everyone else who ISN'T a schizophrenic pyromaniac has... plus, their powers.
THAT - is their "fault" in this mess.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
This whole rebellion was due to Anders' disinfo and nonsense. Half of the abuses he said weren't true. Yet he convinced himself they were and end up putting all mages in jeapordy. Thanks man!
And now we see that the grand Rebellion sold themselves to Tevinter (lol) and was losing it's fight to the Templars. They can't possibly say they had it worse in the Circles.
The mages state over and over from DA:O to DA:I (and all the books in between) that they are always being challenged by demons - and, since they come with flamethrowers -
Do you not think they should FORCE themselves to take the proper training to make themselves safe to themselves and everyone around them?
The mages of Thedas show no signs of take responsibility for themselves - all they think about is having everything everyone else who ISN'T a schizophrenic pyromaniac has... plus, their powers.
THAT - is their "fault" in this mess.
1. I've only played the games and I've never read the books. I never really got the impression that the mages were always under constant mental attack from demons in their heads. Never really saw any sleep disorders from them since when mages sleep they act like beacons in the Fade attracting whatever. If it was that bad, things like that would have obvious signs and patterns. None of them would act like normal people.
2. The mandatory training has NEVER been in question. What IS in question is the style of the training. And the style of the supervision and oversight.
3. Alright, let me see if I understand this one.
I think they would take responsibility if their options didn't suck so much and if Andrastians were not taught so much to fear and shun all things magical. And the Circles kinda sucked. Otherwise, why would so many of them struggle to avoid them and escape them?
And here's the thing about "everyone else". "Everyone Else" is Andrastians who are taught to fear and shun them at best, and hate them at worst from the beginning. Why should mages feel responsibilities or obligations to them? Especially when they're so isolated from everyone else. There needs to be some kind of reciprocity here.
And the part about them wanting to have everything that everyone else has. Are you talking about things like having control over how they live and die, a home of their own, having families, not having their children taken away from them, being a part of society, etc.?
God I wish _Lobselvith_ was around. He's far better at this than me.
for the pro-mages side. If mages were independent from the circle, what should be the course of action when people start practicing blood magic. Not studying it to counter it, but using it as a way to increase power
This whole rebellion was due to Anders' disinfo and nonsense. Half of the abuses he said weren't true. Yet he convinced himself they were and end up putting all mages in jeapordy. Thanks man!
Do you honestly think a single person cause an entire rebellion.
The rebellion was always bigger and far older than Anders. And the abuses WERE true. The Tranquilities, the rapes, the tortures (physical and mental), the summary death sentences without trials.
You're only saying these things because DA2 over-concentrated on Anders and made it seem like he was virtually the only mage in Thedas talking about these things. The game never never really bothered to show us the entirety of the actual Kirkwall Circle.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Do you honestly think a single person cause an entire rebellion.
The rebellion was always bigger and far older than Anders. And the abuses WERE true. The Tranquilities, the rapes, the tortures (physical and mental), the summary death sentences without trials.
You're only saying these things because DA2 over-concentrated on Anders and made it seem like he was virtually the only mage in Thedas talking about these things. The game never never really bothered to show us the entirety of the actual Kirkwall Circle.
He kicked it off yes.
I concentrate on DA2 because Bioware concentrated on it as well. They made a whole game out of the tale, instead of other random tales. Anders is very important to the lore/game universe. While the White Spire is the other story, it's meaningless without DA2. It's a continuation of the same story.
for the pro-mages side. If mages were independent from the circle, what should be the course of action when people start practicing blood magic. Not studying it to counter it, but using it as a way to increase power
I would assume you would have the templars investigate and take the steps necessary to solve that problem. Just because the circles are dissolved does not mean the templars can not or should not act as a policing force for the mages. Personally I am for free mages, but with templars acting as a police force to protect against the irresponsible use of magic.
This whole rebellion was due to Anders' disinfo and nonsense. Half of the abuses he said weren't true. Yet he convinced himself they were and end up putting all mages in jeapordy. Thanks man!
And now we see that the grand Rebellion sold themselves to Tevinter (lol) and was losing it's fight to the Templars. They can't possibly say they had it worse in the Circles.
Whether they were losing to the templars or not is debateable. According to Fiona the Tevinters infiltrated mage ranks and convinced everyone hope was lost. It was a stupid reason to sell themselves but nothing about that plotline made sense.
What is this 'disinfo' you're talking about by the way?
The whole rebellion was not due to Anders. He was the catalyst, but it would have happened sooner or later. And most of the abuses definately existed. There's several people in the Kirkwall circle who has been hinted at being raped (The tranquils and Alain). And we know people were being turned tranquil for no reason. Those things happening without any intervention or anyone noticing is proof enough that the system was greatly flawed.
Unless you don't see rape and lobotomization for funsies as injustices, then I don't know what to say.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Whether they were losing to the templars or not is debateable. According to Fiona the Tevinters infiltrated mage ranks and convinced everyone hope was lost. It was a stupid reason to sell themselves but nothing about that plotline made sense.
What is this 'disinfo' you're talking about by the way?
The whole rebellion was not due to Anders. He was the catalyst, but it would have happened sooner or later. And most of the abuses definately existed. There's several people in the Kirkwall circle who has been hinted at being raped (The tranquils and Alain). And we know people were being turned tranquil for no reason. Those things happening without any intervention or anyone noticing is proof enough that the system was greatly flawed.
Unless you don't see rape and lobotomization for funsies as injustices, then I don't know what to say.
That's Kirkwall though. The whole city is a joke. And it's Circle and Templars. Anders was complaining long before that.
By most accounts, his Ferelden Circle sounded pretty good. And it rewarded any mage who wasn't an asshat. Like Wynne or Finn. Want to be a Jowan or Anders instead? Then they stay inside.
As of this game, I'm fully in the Vivienne camp. Mages must be exceptional. Or they get nothing. And IF they are exceptional, they can become the Divine herself.
That's Kirkwall though. The whole city is a joke. And it's Circle and Templars. Anders was complaining long before that.
By most accounts, his Ferelden Circle sounded pretty good. And it rewarded any mage who wasn't an asshat. Like Wynne or Finn. Want to be a Jowan or Anders instead? Then they stay inside.
As of this game, I'm fully in the Vivienne camp. Mages must be exceptional. Or they get nothing. And IF they are exceptional, they can become the Divine herself.
First Enchanter's approval is everything when it comes to leaving the circle. Wynne as a senior enchanter needed Irving's approval to leave too. A conversation with a Templar guarding the exit tells you only mages doing official circle business or senior enchanters can leave. Both of which still need the approval of first enchanter and might be forced to take Templar escorts. No one denied this. Although do remember that the knight commander can overrule the first enchanter if he suspects a mage but that rarely happens.
But you cannot just pack up and leave for no reason. Wynne left to help the wardens and later to help the mages in Orlais. Finn as well. You can't go for a run or go shopping for example. There has to be a good reason for leaving.
Anders' escapes was quite simple really. He didn't like the circle's food, he couldn't have a proper relationship and he wanted to be very free. People are different. Some would be completely OK with a house arrest but some could go crazy. It all depends on the person. Anders was latter.
This whole rebellion was due to Anders' disinfo and nonsense. Half of the abuses he said weren't true. Yet he convinced himself they were and end up putting all mages in jeapordy. Thanks man!
And now we see that the grand Rebellion sold themselves to Tevinter (lol) and was losing it's fight to the Templars. They can't possibly say they had it worse in the Circles.
Yeah let's dismiss the fact that a templar make the original Cole starve to death and destroy every evidence about it.
The inconsistency of writing between the games isn’t doing the setting any justice.
DAO was written to show Circles as gilded cages – the very intro of mage origin describes it as a prison. “Prison” is the first word you come to associate with the life of a mage because the narrative is pushing it so prominently – from Templars who tell you jumping out of the window as the only way out, to phylactery as a means of keeping track of mages, silent heavily armored, and faceless, figures lining the corridors. Even Wynne’s personal quest shows how rigid the Templars are as they would sooner kill a frightened boy than bring him back to safety.
The writing was meant to show that unless mages were on Circle business they weren’t going out, that unless you were of noble birth you can kiss your visiting privileges goodbye; that mages were not allowed out even when needed for war, that they weren’t trusted with lighting a signal fire.
There are mages, like Wynne and a few others (and I've noticed these were mainly older mages who have settled in the life of Circle politics) who have learned to live within the boundaries of the rules and live a good life and believe that the Circle is doing many good things for the mages, but it’s not as prominent, not in your face like the opposite. She tries to describe how the Circle helped her but it feels hollow seeing how she came to terms with it when she grew much older.
Ignoring all that came after DAO in world setting – something had to be wrong if so many mages were willing to side with Uldred. I maintain that there were mages in the Circle who would never see the light of day simply because the Circle had no reason to allow them out.
Yeah you get let out for good behaviour
The rebellion happened for good reason. The destruction of the conclave was unfortunate however.
I suppose their freedom would depend of the Circle's location and managment, what the First Enchanter was like, what their relationship with Knight-Commander was like and what requirements were needed to get permission. I don't think those were as easy to get as people imagine. A war hero would have an easier time to get an approval to live outside than your regular mage fresh out Harrowing.
Mage Warden has an option to say they've never set a foot outside of the Tower until they were recruited, so...
Honest question. Did we ever see an ordinary circle mage living on the outside? One that is not a war hero, or a senior Enchanter, or someone who had proven themself somehow, or Viviene? Anders might not be the best example, but if permissions were easy to get he wouldn't feel the need to run away seven times.
known as apostates and possible malificar(these are loaded terms)We see plenty in Origins. We do a bunch of side quests for them and even give notice to many an apprentice. All mages living outside the circle.
We see plenty in Origins. We do a bunch of side quests for them and even give notice to many an apprentice. All mages living outside the circle.
The Mages' Collective is a group of magi, comprising of both Apostates and Circle mages, that operates outside the restrictions and oversight of the Chantry and the Templars. None of those apprentices and mages are actually allowed to be there.
known as apostates and possible malificar(these are loaded terms)
The Mages' Collective consists of both Apostates and Circle Mages.
Circle Mages who hide the fact that they're part of the Collective. It's not an organisation sanctioned by the Chantery/Circle.
I would assume you would have the templars investigate and take the steps necessary to solve that problem. Just because the circles are dissolved does not mean the templars can not or should not act as a policing force for the mages. Personally I am for free mages, but with templars acting as a police force to protect against the irresponsible use of magic.
and if the mages protest the templar involvement in these cases? They go "we can handle it on our own" and yet do not do so, perhaps because you have someone like Orsino in charge?
Don't get me wrong, I think the templars should have mages in their ranks or that there should be something like the Harry Potter Aurors. Considering the nature of magic, there always will be a need for templars, but they should be like the order is under Ser Barris not what it has become before he reforms it.
That's Kirkwall though. The whole city is a joke. And it's Circle and Templars. Anders was complaining long before that.
By most accounts, his Ferelden Circle sounded pretty good. And it rewarded any mage who wasn't an asshat. Like Wynne or Finn. Want to be a Jowan or Anders instead? Then they stay inside.
As of this game, I'm fully in the Vivienne camp. Mages must be exceptional. Or they get nothing. And IF they are exceptional, they can become the Divine herself.
You mean complaining in Awakening? I would like to know what he said in Awakening that was untrue.
Like I and many others have said previously. Wynne was a national hero and Finn was on a mission. We haven't seen any non-heroes (yes, I'm counting Wilhelm and his family) be released permenantly.
You seem incapable of deciding whether mages just has to be 'not asshats' or exceptional to get any benefits. It may surprise you to find that those are not the same thing.
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