169 réponses à ce sujet

[raging_monkey]

The Mages' Collective consists of both Apostates and Circle Mages.

would anyone non-magi care to make that distiction mundanes. If out of circle they are apostate/malificar. That how it is sadly

[J.C. Blade]

As of this game, I'm fully in the Vivienne camp. Mages must be exceptional. Or they get nothing. And IF they are exceptional, they can become the Divine herself.

 

And what does that mean? Be popular and not a shy wallflower? Trample over your fellow apprentices to reach the top? If you’re an average student you don’t get to see the light of day? What constitutes as an exceptional mage and what as a responsible mage and what as a good mage.

 

Vivienne is a power-hungry narcissist to rival those from Tevinter. She’d rather be a noble than a mage. She fears magic yet uses it as a tool to establish herself in positions of power. She parrots what the Circle had thought her about demons and is unable to accept that perhaps there is more to Fade and creatures living there than Chantery teaches. That there are other ways to do magic than just what the Circle tells. She supports Templars and repeats how dangerous mages are, yet if any Templar came in her direction she would not give up her status so easily. If anything, I got the feeling that the only reason why she supports the Templars is that they would keep the competition at bay – or just show how very responsible and conscious of dangerous of magic she is.

 

Vivienne is ambitious but not for mages’ sake. She wants to stand at the top and look fabulous while unwashed masses and nobles gawk at her.

[Sylentmana]

I think the Circle provided opportunities for Templars to abuse mages, but from what I saw after I sided with the mages was that many were spoiled brats, so those abuses couln't be happening everywhere.  Some Circles were bad, Kirkwall being a perfect example, but overall, I now think that most of the mages were simply being spoiled brats.

 

In DA2 I felt like I needed to protect the mages that were innocent and that the Templars were pushing the mages into blood magic out of desperation, but in DAI after I made the mages my allies felt like I had only enabled their spoiled "I'm so persecuted" attitude.

[Tarvesh]

known as apostates and possible malificar(these are loaded terms)

Some are. Others aren't. You can't discount proof when it proves you wrong. Well... You can. But it just makes you seem too stubborn to reason with.

[raging_monkey]

Some are. Others aren't. You can't discount proof when it proves you wrong. Well... You can. But it just makes you seem too stubborn to reason with.

wqsnt disagreeing just giving a possible perspective. If it walks like a duck acts like a duck and qauks like a duck... its probably a duck

[Akkos]

And what does that mean? Be popular and not a shy wallflower? Trample over your fellow apprentices to reach the top? If you’re an average student you don’t get to see the light of day? What constitutes as an exceptional mage and what as a responsible mage and what as a good mage.

 

Vivienne is a power-hungry narcissist to rival those from Tevinter. She’d rather be a noble than a mage. She fears magic yet uses it as a tool to establish herself in positions of power. She parrots what the Circle had thought her about demons and is unable to accept that perhaps there is more to Fade and creatures living there than Chantery teaches. That there are other ways to do magic than just what the Circle tells. She supports Templars and repeats how dangerous mages are, yet if any Templar came in her direction she would not give up her status so easily. If anything, I got the feeling that the only reason why she supports the Templars is that they would keep the competition at bay – or just show how very responsible and conscious of dangerous of magic she is.

 

Vivienne is ambitious but not for mages’ sake. She wants to stand at the top and look fabulous while unwashed masses and nobles gawk at her.

 

This guy is so stupid.......   Pro-mage fan boy messing up the rumours and all about a character he has not even hear about ......

[EmperorSahlertz]

would anyone non-magi care to make that distiction mundanes. If out of circle they are apostate/malificar. That how it is sadly

That is simply not true. As we know by now, the mages ARE allowed outside the Circles. So some of the mages we work for in the Mages' Collective, could easily be mages, who are outside the Circle on business.

[raging_monkey]

That is simply not true. As we know by now, the mages ARE allowed outside the Circles. So some of the mages we work for in the Mages' Collective, could easily be mages, who are outside the Circle on business.

that is a possiblity never said it wasnt just that not everyone would see it that way. But im splitting hair now lol

[PrinceLionheart]

for the pro-mages side. If mages were independent from the circle, what should be the course of action when people start practicing blood magic. Not studying it to counter it, but using it as a way to increase power

 

Hypothetically the mages would have to police themselves in that scenario, but then you run the risk of having an enabler like Orsino at the helm who covers up what his people do because he doesn't want the detractors to be validated.

[Vit246]

This guy is so stupid.......   Pro-mage fan boy messing up the rumours and all about a character he has not even hear about ......

If you have nothing more substantial than this, you may as well have conceded the argument.

[Hazegurl]

And what does that mean? Be popular and not a shy wallflower? Trample over your fellow apprentices to reach the top? If you’re an average student you don’t get to see the light of day? What constitutes as an exceptional mage and what as a responsible mage and what as a good mage.

 

Vivienne is a power-hungry narcissist to rival those from Tevinter. She’d rather be a noble than a mage. She fears magic yet uses it as a tool to establish herself in positions of power. She parrots what the Circle had thought her about demons and is unable to accept that perhaps there is more to Fade and creatures living there than Chantery teaches. That there are other ways to do magic than just what the Circle tells. She supports Templars and repeats how dangerous mages are, yet if any Templar came in her direction she would not give up her status so easily. If anything, I got the feeling that the only reason why she supports the Templars is that they would keep the competition at bay – or just show how very responsible and conscious of dangerous of magic she is.

 

Vivienne is ambitious but not for mages’ sake. She wants to stand at the top and look fabulous while unwashed masses and nobles gawk at her.

That is life. No one is going to reach out a hand to you and shower you with wealth and opportunity for no reason. You have to show them that you are worth the time and investment. There are plenty of shy entertainers and inventors so a person can be a wallflower and make it provided that they have something of worth. But it is unrealistic and downright wishful thinking to believe that you can just sit down and do nothing of note AND be a wallflower and everyone is supposed to reach out a hand and help you climb to the top. The fact remains is that greatness was at the finger tips of every single Mage within the Circle. They had access to luxury, power, and education that no ordinary citizen of Thedas had. I highly doubt Queen Anora would have taken good care of the Elves revolting in one of her alienages..oh wait, she didn't. But she provided refuge for the mages. If no other mage was willing to take full advantage of their opportunities then that is their fault alone. I don't see why Vivienne should hold herself back for them. 

[J.C. Blade]

Because Vivienne in her ambition is perfectly willing to lock up all of the competition. So, in her words, be an exceptional mage, prove your worth, play the game, trample your opponents or else you'll stay locked inside of the tower for the rest of your life.

 

Time and investment? Circles are not boarding schools, and young mages did not go and knock on their doors asking to be admitted with a gleam in their eyes for the brighter future. Any skill they pick up is not used for the good of the nation they live in. They have to go there, live there and they have to stay there for the rest of their lives. You should not be an accomplished genius and favored apprentice to be allowed to visit the local tavern.

 

And what happened in Redcliff proved that mages were so out of tune with the outside world that as allies to the Inquisition they keep pestering Cassandra with their demands, simply because they don’t know any other way to communicate – everything was either given to them or taken from them.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Because Vivienne in her ambition is perfectly willing to lock up all of the competition. So, in her words, be an exceptional mage, prove your worth, play the game, trample your opponents or else you'll stay locked inside of the tower for the rest of your life.

 

Time and investment? Circles are not boarding schools, and young mages did not go and knock on their doors asking to be admitted with a gleam in their eyes for the brighter future. Any skill they pick up is not used for the good of the nation they live in. They have to go there, live there and they have to stay there for the rest of their lives. You should not be an accomplished genius and favored apprentice to be allowed to visit the local tavern.

 

And what happened in Redcliff proved that mages were so out of tune with the outside world that as allies to the Inquisition they keep pestering Cassandra with their demands, simply because they don’t know any other way to communicate – everything was either given to them or taken from them.

So not only do you demand that everyone drop everything they are doing and help out the poor little mages, you also demand that they should not pamper the mages at the same time, making the mages feel appreciated.....

If the mages are out of tune with the world, guess what, then it is the MAGES own damn fault. We have solid PROOF that mages were allowed outside the Circles, either on business, or assigned as court mages and advisors (which would mean permanent residence outside the Circle). What the mages had to do to get these jobs? Simply prove themselves worthy of the investment......

 

Do you also seek a job in a large corperation, and instantly DEMAND of them to promote you to CEO, since... Well... You are you, and damn it if you don't deserve it!

[TK514]

Mage Warden has an option to say they've never set a foot outside of the Tower until they were recruited, so...

 

Six pages on, and I'm still laughing at this.  It's convenient to forgets that the Mage Warden hadn't even passed their harrowing when DA:O starts.

[Lulupab]

Six pages on, and I'm still laughing at this.  It's convenient to forgets that the Mage Warden hadn't even passed their harrowing when DA:O starts.

 

Talk with the Templar guarding the door, only the mages on official circle business and senior enchanters may leave, even then they still need fist enchanters' permission and may be forced to take Templar escorts.

 

Warden had no good reason to leave therefore he/she couldn't leave.

[Hazegurl]

Because Vivienne in her ambition is perfectly willing to lock up all of the competition. So, in her words, be an exceptional mage, prove your worth, play the game, trample your opponents or else you'll stay locked inside of the tower for the rest of your life.

 

Time and investment? Circles are not boarding schools, and young mages did not go and knock on their doors asking to be admitted with a gleam in their eyes for the brighter future. Any skill they pick up is not used for the good of the nation they live in. They have to go there, live there and they have to stay there for the rest of their lives. You should not be an accomplished genius and favored apprentice to be allowed to visit the local tavern.

 

And what happened in Redcliff proved that mages were so out of tune with the outside world that as allies to the Inquisition they keep pestering Cassandra with their demands, simply because they don’t know any other way to communicate – everything was either given to them or taken from them.

Vivienne reinstated the circles and the mages willing to grasp power became far more powerful than they ever could have under the old system.  What do you want her to do? Help her competition rise to power to dethrone her?? This isn't little league where everyone gets a trophy. And yeah the Circles are sort of like boarding schools. Every mage has an education that no one else in Thedas has. It's their own fault for doing nothing with it. The fact remains is that Mages were allowed to leave...if there was a good enough reason to let them go. The rebellion began due to their own petty pampered ways. They couldn't handle the Templars cracking down on them which means that the Templars so called everyday harsh treatment was rare. Also, if you read Asunder, you will know what the mages responsible for upholding the Circles were doing, partying and living it up instead of addressing any real concerns. If anything they failed the Mages far more than the Templars or anyone else.

 

@Lulu, even if Duncan had come recruiting, he never would have been allowed to leave with an Unharrowed Mage.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Talk with the Templar guarding the door, only the mages on official circle business and senior enchanters may leave, even then they still need fist enchanters' permission and may be forced to take Templar escorts.

 

Warden had no good reason to leave therefore he/she couldn't leave.

...

...

What did you expect? That the mages could just leave freely? No one has been saying that. We are saying that mages were ALLOWED to leave, meaning that they would have to get permission.

[Iadro]

I've been thinking about the mages that could leave. Barring conscription, Wynne, Ines, Finn as examples are all deemed "low-risk" by the Templars... why is that? Same as Vivienne. Wynne views the Circle as a refuge from her horrible childhood. Ines doesn't seem to care about anything but her plants, and she is roughly Wynne's age, so she had time to work her way through the system. Finn does not like the outside world AT ALL, and unlike the majority of Circle mages is still loved and valued by his parents to receive letters and knitted hats. Vivienne's post in Orlais was clawed out of the system, piece by piece.

 

These mages had nowhere else to go, or cared for little else but their one area of expertise, or were still loved by their families. (I believe Finn is truly the odd man out, compare his experience with that of Jowan, whose mother hated him ("demon child!") and abused him after discovering his magic, or the Mage Warden, who was purposely moved to Ferelden to prevent his/her undoubtedly loving parents from showing the same treatment as Finn gets) To see the sun is a basic right, to feel it on one's skin as well! Every Mage Tower comes with a Chantry, where mages are forced to listen to endless sermons about their own corruption. Sometimes, it even warps the individual in question into believing they are nothing and no-one, deserving only death. (Poor Keili, Miss "let the sword come down, oh swift release.") This last point truly infuriates me.

 

Mages have long been the whipping boys and girls in the lands of the White Divine, accused by centuries of religious dogma. Saying things like mages get preferred treatment that "peasants" don't get?

 

Really?

 

Peasants exist, but this is the tired old "BUT children are starving in Africa" trick. An excuse trivialize an issue. To validate what is essentially life imprisonment for possible crimes is monstrous. I just, I don't understand how some people can't see that. If this is truly imprisonment, what are the legal standings for mages? Are they protected by the Crown? Do they have third-party advocates if accused of Blood Magic? Can the Tranquil protect themselves from predation? (Ser Alrik's confidence that "once you're Tranquil, you do anything I ask" says otherwise) I don't know but I doubt it, which makes the mages less than citizens in any given White Chantry nation. They're not citizens. They're just... prisoners.      

[Aisabel]

That's odd.. I could have sworn that in the first game they made it sound like a prison, saying you can never leave unless something really important comes up. 

[raging_monkey]

That's odd.. I could have sworn that in the first game they made it sound like a prison, saying you can never leave unless something really important comes up.

that was just bsn lies circles protect all

Disclaimer: im joking XD

[Hazegurl]

You're trying to romanticize Mage suffering, it won't work.

 

There is a Chantry in the tower but for mages who believe in the maker.  My Warden Mage made it clear that she didn't. No one is forced to attend any sermons.

 

Vivienne was a freaking Knight Enchanter, and it appears other mages could also study battlemagic provided that they weren't gonna use it against the Templars.  I would hardly consider them low risk. If you were not at risk of running amok, and if there was a reason to let you go, you were let go.

 

The "Starving kids in Africa" argument is still valid for mages because we are talking about what it takes for a Mage to leave the circle sans running away and bloodshed. The fact remains is that Mages had every arsenal under their belt to leave their situation behind. This is a far cry from peasants who have no such chance. It's not saying, Mages should just stay in the Circle, but use the tools you have to better your own lot and leave it. Most chose not to do that. It's the case of leading a horse to water, but can't force it to drink.

 

Mages actually have political parties responsible for determining how the Circles should be run. They met up once a year. The problem is that these Mages were living the high life and showing off their new outfits and had no concern over the issues facing some of the Circles. Yes mages are protected. Anora gave them refuge during the war and the Templars tried to protect them after Anders blew up half of Kirkwall. Until they declared war on them.  The fact that they are protected gives them something no other class has.

 

We know from origins and DA2 that an accusation of blood magic isn't enough to render a guilty verdict. An investigation is made and it takes both the Knight Commander and the First Enchanter to approve of Tranquility. We learn from origins that if there is a possibility that a mage can't pass their Harrowing they would be made Tranquil with approval of both parties.  We know that a Harrowed Mage can not be made tranquil. Tranquil are not idiots who can't protect themselves. They have shown to have a will of their own. Does it mean abuses have never taken place? Of course not. But Kirkwall's Circle is not every Circle.  and it was already proven in game that Ser Alrik was insane and his so called "Solution" was rejected by everyone.

[Treacherous J Slither]

You're trying to romanticize Mage suffering, it won't work.

 

There is a Chantry in the tower but for mages who believe in the maker.  My Warden Mage made it clear that she didn't. No one is forced to attend any sermons.

 

Vivienne was a freaking Knight Enchanter, and it appears other mages could also study battlemagic provided that they weren't gonna use it against the Templars.  I would hardly consider them low risk. If you were not at risk of running amok, and if there was a reason to let you go, you were let go.

 

The "Starving kids in Africa" argument is still valid for mages because we are talking about what it takes for a Mage to leave the circle sans running away and bloodshed. The fact remains is that Mages had every arsenal under their belt to leave their situation behind. This is a far cry from peasants who have no such chance. It's not saying, Mages should just stay in the Circle, but use the tools you have to better your own lot and leave it. Most chose not to do that. It's the case of leading a horse to water, but can't force it to drink.

 

Mages actually have political parties responsible for determining how the Circles should be run. They met up once a year. The problem is that these Mages were living the high life and showing off their new outfits and had no concern over the issues facing some of the Circles. Yes mages are protected. Anora gave them refuge during the war and the Templars tried to protect them after Anders blew up half of Kirkwall. Until they declared war on them.  The fact that they are protected gives them something no other class has.

 

We know from origins and DA2 that an accusation of blood magic isn't enough to render a guilty verdict. An investigation is made and it takes both the Knight Commander and the First Enchanter to approve of Tranquility. We learn from origins that if there is a possibility that a mage can't pass their Harrowing they would be made Tranquil with approval of both parties.  We know that a Harrowed Mage can not be made tranquil. Tranquil are not idiots who can't protect themselves. They have shown to have a will of their own. Does it mean abuses have never taken place? Of course not. But Kirkwall's Circle is not every Circle.  and it was already proven in game that Ser Alrik was insane and his so called "Solution" was rejected by everyone.

 

The thing is that the mages of the Circle are completely at the mercy of the Templars and the Chantry. Two organizations that they are not allowed to join themselves. There is no equal sharing of power for Circle mages. Whatever they have is given to them and at any time can be taken away by people that believe mages are responsible for nearly destroying the world.

[StrangeStrategy]

"I get stuck in a tower, a nice, warm tower! Oh, the horror! And THEN (wait for it) they TEACH me. They provide me with an education to rival a noble's, they teach me how to read and write! What a freak I am, none of my former-peasant-buddies could read or write! And then they give me these disgusting high-quality robes and magical staff, ugh why can't I run around in rags like most other people!? I'm so mad, but thank you for listening, group of people who know exactly how I feel and can relate to me in every way because I'm surrounded by friends, thanks for listening to my horrible mage life. Now, I think I'll get some free food to eat and then go to sleep in my nice bed."

Hyperbole but yea u get it

[Treacherous J Slither]

"I get stuck in a tower, a nice, warm tower! Oh, the horror! And THEN (wait for it) they TEACH me. They provide me with an education to rival a noble's, they teach me how to read and write! What a freak I am, none of my former-peasant-buddies could read or write! And then they give me these disgusting high-quality robes and magical staff, ugh why can't I run around in rags like most other people!? I'm so mad, but thank you for listening, group of people who know exactly how I feel and can relate to me in every way because I'm surrounded by friends, thanks for listening to my horrible mage life. Now, I think I'll get some free food to eat and then go to sleep in my nice bed."

Hyperbole but yea u get it

 

No, I don't get it.

 

Your entire life as a Circle mage is built upon their mercy and if they decide not to give you any then what?

 

The education, food, clothes, shelter, can all be denied on a whim and there's nothing you could do about it because they hold all the cards.

[raging_monkey]

Used to think magi were the right and templars wrong now i see them as 2 buffuns with sticks bigger than them. I say abolish everything and let em work it out. No ones gonna be happy so let them kill eachother and let the nobles handle it.

Despite being a promage and only playing mages see them both as fools who should just have at it. Eventually they will go back to the original plan