352 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Clearly because I'm awesome. Or a troll. Or an awesome troll.

 

More seriously- 'making the same debates constantly' is one of those memory blurs that depends more as much on the viewer as the person taking the position. I see no issue, and certainly nothing petty, about holding the same general position- and having occasionally snooped by Hanako's posting history including posts in the Blackwall thread, I can say with some confidence that she doesn't just copy-paste the same things to any given challenge. Certainly no more than one might expect if, say, her verbal sparring partners were giving the same sort of challenges over and over. Which makes the 'you're not bringing anything new' charge as much against the pro-Blackwall crowd as against her. At which point I have to wonder why a pro-X repititive circle jerk is any more deserving of respect than an anti-X repititive circle jerk. But that's all kinda irrelevant to her conduct in this thread, which should be the important frame of refernce.

 

Regarding Sten, if you wish to take the topic there, we can make a few important and conceivably relevant distinctions between Sten and Blackwall. Sten, for one, surrendered to the relevant authorities immediately after his crime- he never rejected it, or hid it. In fact, he never asked to be redeemed either. Recruiting Sten is a pretty utilitarian action with known sins from the start, and with the potential involvement of local authorities who have already judged him, unlike Blackwall who both tries to live up to his assumed morality but also uses it as a shield to escape such judgement. End point being, there are significant moral (and justice) distinctions that can be made between the two, if we wish.

 

I'm not sure we do, however, since I'm uncomfortable with your use of 'you' towards the end. I can't tell whether you're using it in broad non-specifics that don't refer to me, associating me with positions I haven't taken, or a mixture of the two.

 

Uh huh.

 

There's nothing petty about holding the same position. (Good thing that's not what I said). There is something petty in constantly feeling the need to go into a thread where people are discussing the virtues of the character to yet again nitpick about another flaw they have. There's something petty in trying to twist quotes supporting his wanting to earn redemption into "oh that's not about him!" there's petty in trying to make it so he's a bully for picking on Solas (nvm that Solas gives as good as he gets and is indeed much more harsh to other characters.) for that fade spirit question. There's petty in condemning a grown man for the actions he made as a scared child. For me for a discussion to actually be a discussion it has to boil down to more than just "this characters' bad and everything about him sucks."

 

You mean the arguable point that Sten's regret is more about how he allowed the qunari to be seen than the actual crime? That he couldn't have gone home anyway because he lost his sword?

 

Then don't Dean. I'm not inclined to give a damn.

[Bugsie]

One who openly acknowledges his failings, for one.

The biggest weakness of Blackwall's position is that while he privately admitted to his wrongdoing, he benefited from (and took advantage of) his deception and presumed innocence all the while.

Atonement is hard- but it's not only hard because to be meritorious it must be a challenge to forgive one's self. It is also hard because earning back the trust of the public who (rightfully) condemn you is hard, It is a burden to be worked through. Blackwall never did- at least, not until he finally turned himself in. That is when he truly took responsibility for it all, and that's the point his work towards redemption can really be said to begin.

I'd argue the seed of a redemptive path began when he met Blackwall, the real Blackwall that is, who after seeing all the notes and letters I'm pretty sure knew who Thom Rainier was and the crime he committed.  I'd also argue that Rainier saw a measure of sacrifice in becoming a grey warden, without knowing what that really entails, sacrifice is also part of redemption.  Sure maybe his views were still couched in a measure of arrogance (shame possibly too) and not truly selfless, especially as you say he took the role of another but it had begun.  All the arguments that he isn't worthy of redemption (even as you say at the point where his redemptive mindset begins)  seem a bit moot, in the face of how we as PC can allow that to play out.  

In regard to the choices you make for Blackwall, (and trying not to weigh into debate about other posters) being right or wrong or shades of, I know I don't appreciate being moralized/sermonised to about the decision I make about a video game character.  Whether intentional or not, having your personal irl morals questioned (not in this specific thread) because you like a certain character portrayal/arc sticks in peoples craw, and hence the hostility you might be see being expressed here.
 

[Dean_the_Young]

Uh huh.

 

There's nothing petty about holding the same position. (Good thing that's not what I said). There is something petty in constantly feeling the need to go into a thread where people are discussing the virtues of the character to yet again nitpick about another flaw they have. There's something petty in trying to twist quotes supporting his wanting to earn redemption into "oh that's not about him!" there's petty in trying to make it so he's a bully for picking on Solas (nvm that Solas gives as good as he gets and is indeed much more harsh to other characters.) for that fade spirit question. There's petty in condemning a grown man for the actions he made as a scared child. For me for a discussion to actually be a discussion it has to boil down to more than just "this characters' bad and everything about him sucks."

 

Then don't Dean. I'm not inclined to give a damn.

 

Clearly you are giving a damn, because you've let your emotions affect your posts. And you are still replying. The truly apathetic don't bother, which is why I on-again/off-again ignore the posts of various people on this forum. Sometimes I give a damn and interact with them. Sometimes they post earnest rebuttals and I don't even acknowledge their attempts. That's not giving a damn- your views here and how you express them are you giving a damn.

 

Not that this is new for you, or even bad. We've butted heads enough times over the years on enough topics for me to recognize that about you.

 

You mean the arguable point that Sten's regret is more about how he allowed the qunari to be seen than the actual crime? That he couldn't have gone home anyway because he lost his sword?

 

I think that's a reasonable argument to make. Not necessarily the whole of the truth, but reasonable. I see no issue if you want to bring that up somehow.

[Ryzaki]

Clearly you are giving a damn, because you've let your emotions affect your posts. And you are still replying. The truly apathetic don't bother, which is why I on-again/off-again ignore the posts of various people on this forum. Sometimes I give a damn and interact with them. Sometimes they post earnest rebuttals and I don't even acknowledge their attempts. That's not giving a damn- your views here and how you express them are you giving a damn.

 

Not that this is new for you, or even bad. We've butted heads enough times over the years on enough topics for me to recognize that about you.

 

I think that's a reasonable argument to make. Not necessarily the whole of the truth, but reasonable. I see no issue if you want to bring that up somehow.

 

*sigh* nvm then. I'll go back to playing my sorc. *shrug*

 

I feel patronized enough to for the day thx.

[Bugsie]

I really don't see why people can defend him after finding out what he did. To me it's like defending a priest who beats his kid, just because he act's like a man of god when not at home.

LOL. I've yet to see a post where they say what he did was in anyway anything other than him being a murderer and gun for hire for selfish gain. But by all means continue your inaccurate moral assessment of what people are saying about him. Leave him to rot/hang in Val Royeaux or let him continue his lie in the Hinterlands. It's your PC after all.

Considering that also means loss of content, I'm unlikely to do those things.

[Catwall]

...the honorable man he claims to be

Hmm, I don't recall ever hearing him claim to be an honorable man. His character is grim and self-loathing to the point of making me want to throw a shoe at his head, and prone to dredging up past failures in every conversation. Maybe this side is less apparent if he's not an LI?

 

Well, whatever. I like that he provokes strong reactions, in any case.

[BAC PARTY CITY]

so just came across this on Reddit. And it doesn't help Blackwalls case.

 

http://www.reddit.co...ckwall_spoiler/

 

....... When we met him, he was fighting alongside 3 villagers who would have died without him; teaching them to protect their village.....

 

 

 

 

If you look at the cutscene when you recruit him again, and read some of the notes in the area, you can see that the bandits who were attacking those villagers were ex-members of Thom Rainier's squad, who turned to banditry and murder after being forced to run from the law.

Also, in that cutscene they were actually attacking Blackwall, and the villagers just got in the way. Blackwall was saving the villagers, but also himself.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm going to have to replay this game in the future an analyze this scene a little closer. I was just going to let him sit in prison, because I couldn't find away to fee him without hurting the inquisitions image/reputation or political ties in some form or fashion and frankly the inquisition is so strong he isn't needed and won't necessarily be missed that much.

 

However, I realize I have one more memories of the Grey mission to complete and I kind of need Blackwall for that........so ugh.

 

 

Anyone no of a way to get Blackwall without making the Inquisition look bad?

 

[Xetykins]

so just came across this on Reddit. And it doesn't help Blackwalls case.
 
http://www.reddit.co...ckwall_spoiler/

 

 

 
 
 
 
 
I'm going to have to replay this game in the future an analyze this scene a little closer. I was just going to let him sit in prison, because I couldn't find away to fee him without hurting the inquisitions image/reputation or political ties in some form or fashion and frankly the inquisition is so strong he isn't needed and won't necessarily be missed that much.
 
However, I realize I have one more memories of the Grey mission to complete and I kind of need Blackwall for that........so ugh.
 
 
Anyone no of a way to get Blackwall without making the Inquisition look bad?

I accidentally sent forces to free him and it was a bloodbath. Oops

[Bugsie]

I think you need to go back and reread my post. Because if you do, you will clearly see I was not talking about what others are saying about him. I gave my opinion on what he did and who he is as person and that's it.

I'd like to know how a statement like 'how can others defend him' is not about what others are saying about him?

@BAC PARTY, if you have him engaged in servitude he continues 'living the lie' most people won't know he's Thom Rainier, hence I'd argue a measure of protection for the inquisition's reputation.

[Qunquistador]

I'd like to know how a statement like 'how can others defend him' is not about what others are saying about him?

@BAC PARTY, if you have him engaged in servitude he continues 'living the lie' most people won't know he's Thom Rainier, hence I'd argue a measure of protection for the inquisition's reputation.

The thing is he announces to Val Royeaux that he's not Blackwall. And you also get a WT mission called the consequences of "Blackwall's" lie. Clearly, people are aware that you had a fake warden in your service.

 

So that non-punishment seems the most ridiculous of all of the other non-punishments.

[Bugsie]

Ah. Yeah, mmm. Is just limited to Val Royeaux/Orlais? (in my current playthrough so forgotten the setting for the 'consequences of Blackwall's lie' war table mission)

If you want the ultimate punishment though, you have to leave him in Val Royeaux, denying the inquisition any benefit from him (maybe someone else knows, if you do this do the warden treaties become invalid too?)

[Ryzaki]

I accidentally sent forces to free him and it was a bloodbath. Oops

 

LOL yeah I read that and was all "really Cullen? REALLY? YOU WANT US TO STORM A JAIL?"I wish I could've slapped him for suggesting that.

[Bugsie]

Fair enough. Though next time just try to be a bit more considerate of someone if you disagree with them or have an issue with what they said. Starting things off with LOL and well saying things like this: But by all means continue your inaccurate moral assessment of what people are saying about him. 
Could end up ticking someone else off.

Ah well my apologies then, just the making moral judgements about others decisions was fresh in my mind when I saw your post (and with reference to the priest, it got under my skin.). Wasn't my intention to insult you (or your decision how you dealt with BW).

[Reman]

LOL yeah I read that and was all "really Cullen? REALLY? YOU WANT US TO STORM A JAIL?"I wish I could've slapped him for suggesting that.

Leliana's made the most sense to me.

[Bugsie]

LOL yeah I read that and was all "really Cullen? REALLY? YOU WANT US TO STORM A JAIL?"I wish I could've slapped him for suggesting that.

Remember, to Cullen, every problem is just a nail that needs a hammer!

I went the diplomatic path, but I totally get the Leliana option, especially if you're playing a dwarf origin Inquisitor.

[AtreiyaN7]

@BAC: With regards to the bandits and the note, it does make it clear that at least one of the bandits was one of Rainier's men if you put the pieces together (whether the rest of them were also were, I'm not entirely sure - have to reread the note because it's been a while...ah yes, someone reposted part of it, and it definitely looks like more than one of the bandits were his former men). Now if you bother to listen to what is said during the encounter while he's trying to talk to the bandit:
 

• Bandit: You're dead, bastard! Dead!
• Blackwall: I wasn't here to fight! Stop and think!

Whatever Blackwall was there for, it didn't look like he set out to use those fishermen to help defend himself. The bandits were clearly already robbing people (based on the note), and I suppose that that village may have been next on their banditry hit list. Blackwall may have wanted to intercede to stop his former soldier(s) peacefully and to keep the bandits from attacking the villagers. But bandits being bandits - and with what I assume would be deep bitterness of the part of the ex-soldier(s) - I don't think things were going to work out that way. 

 

Even if Blackwall had hypothetically had some sort of selfish motivations there (and I don't believe that that's the case based on all the dialogue during the initial encounter), those people did need to be taught to defend themselves. And the next time it happens (if it happens), they'll actually be able to do that. I rather doubt that this particular group of bandits is the only group of bandits in Thedas.

[Ryzaki]

Remember, to Cullen, every problem is just a nail that needs a hammer!

I went the diplomatic path, but I totally get the Leliana option, especially if you're playing a dwarf origin Inquisitor.

 

True but you'd think he'd at least go well maybe storming a prison would just result in enough political fallout that Josie might just stab him with her quill.

 

But yeah I was tempted for the Leliana option. 2 birds and one stone there.

 

 

Leliana's made the most sense to me.

 

Yeah but Blackwall can get on his high horse during judgement afterwards. I prefer Josie's.

 

I just wish there was a "You are not that significant darling." complete with Vivi smile but nooooooo. I can't be sassy.

[CredulousAlloy]

My Inquisitor couldn't really justify taking Leliana's option as it would mean yet another person dying for him (I think the prisoner they were going to switcheroo was condemned to die anyway, but it's still more lies and deception, which he wanted to stop by that point). Then again, she was a hopeless idealist who always tried to do things the "nice" way, and maybe an Inquisitor from another background wouldn't have had those qualms. I was lucky in that I'd only recently finished Wicked Eyes & Wicked Hearts so it was fresh in my mind that Celene owed the Inquisition one for saving her ass. And yes, I laughed my head off at Cullen's "storm the jail" suggestion. What the hell, Cullen?

[AresKeith]

LOL yeah I read that and was all "really Cullen? REALLY? YOU WANT US TO STORM A JAIL?"I wish I could've slapped him for suggesting that.

 

not one of his brightest moments lol

 

That actually sounds like something the Inquisitor would possibly suggest

[Scuttlebutt101]

If you have the Underworld perk, you can have your underworld contacts break him out and I think this option mentions that it can cover up the Inquisition's involvement. It costs time (~4 minutes) instead of power.

[Ryzaki]

not one of his brightest moments lol

 

That actually sounds like something the Inquisitor would possibly suggest

 

It does.

 

Cullen should be happy he's so pretty. 

[Qunquistador]

If you have the Underworld perk, you can have your underworld contacts break him out and I think this option mentions that it can cover up the Inquisition's involvement. It costs time (~4 minutes) instead of power.

It does. But when you get to the judgement Blackwall goes "you're a criminal, same as me." Because doing all you can to give a colleague who lied to you a chance to do good is totally the same as killing an innocent woman and four kids for money.

 

Judgemental judgement Blackwall is partially the reason I figure it's best to leave him in jail to die as he wants. Next go around I may just not recruit him. He's a stain on the inquisition's reputation.