I think he was just training them to protect their village and he would have let them go back home even without the Inq appearance.
I'll have to play closer attention on my current playthrough now that I know who he really is. It will be fun to see what clues I missed out on the first time around.
I think he was just training them to protect their village and he would have let them go back home even without the Inq appearance.
That was my read on this too. Seemed like the Inquisition showing up gave him a convenient excuse, but I sincerely doubt he'd have been willing to train them if he hadn't had some way out of it at the end.
I was more upset about his murdering of an entire family, including four children. He didn't have to go that far. Murder his target, okay, but leave the children alone. That is never okay.
He is the biggest bag of douchery that ever was. He can hang.
Vis-a-vis a discussion about what he did in the Blackwall thread (I paraphrased the exchange that I heard between him and Cole, and then Credulous found the actual dialogue):
Cole: I'm sorry you have to stay. It wouldn't work for them. You were trying to fix it. It isn't your fault.
Blackwall: What isn't my fault?
Cole: They wanted Blackwall, not Rainier. That's why they're angry.
Blackwall: Angry...really? I thought I was just imagining all the frowning faces. Care to tear into me as well, now that you know?
Cole: No.
Blackwall: You who heal the helpless...you're not angry about what I was hiding?
Cole: You never hid from me. Mockingbird, mockingbird...too many voices in the carriage. Maker, they're young. If I tell my men to stop, they'll know it was all a lie. Cold. Trapped. Heart hammering like axes on a carriage door.
Blackwall: Stop...please.
So to everyone who seems to be declaring him a heartless bastard, etc., what you fail to recognize is that the man who hired him lied to him. Yeah, he took money and used his own men for his own gain, but I'm under the impression that he thought it was going to be your average Game-related political assassination - and I would guess that this kind of thing happens regularly in Orlais. At this point, we all know that it's just the way that Orlesian politics work.
At the last minute, and presumably he was there with his men, Rainier heard the children's voices in the carriage and realized in that moment that he'd been lied to by the man who hired him. He probably wanted to stop things, but it was way past too late at that point, because he was effectively screwed either way. There is no doubt that Rainier of the past was a self-interested pr--- who only sought his own advancement, but he changed - a lot - and ever since then he's been trying to make up for what he did.
Also, regarding Revelations, if Blackwall/Rainier were really the same man that he once was, he would have run. But he didn't, and he even saved one of his own men from hanging. And frankly, you should probably take Blackwall and Cole with you after Revelations to hear that banter for yourself - the delivery alone when he begs Cole to stop ought to tell you the truth of the matter.
Cole doesn't lie, and he sees right into everyone's hearts. And as someone who romanced Blackwall, I realized that the man that he was then and the man that he is now are two very different things. I certainly didn't forget what he did, but I also considered everything he's done since that crime (including when he helped those fishermen learn to fight for themselves). I gave plenty of people who messed up second chances - like taking Alexius (the guy who tried to kill us) on as an agent because of everything Dorian told me about his situation. There were, I thought, sufficient extenuating circumstances in his case. Ditto on giving the Wardens a second chance even after the blood that was spilled, because I could understand that they were really scared and had done something stupid because of it. They really screwed up, but it did not wipe out all the good they had done in the past, etc.
One of the characters that I see going from faking a hero to actually becoming one. Following GW's ideals (not GWs themselves, but the ideals behind them) while trying to hide from his past. Finally facing his past and willing to sacrifice himself so more lives are not lost for his mistake. Yeah he rejoined Inquisition for me.
And really, the number of times he slipped (to those who played previous games) was pretty high:
You kill Archdemon by stabbing it with swords! It just uh...have to be GW swords! (Right, ok, maybe you are just not willing to talk about Joining and taint. Fine. Although that sounded very...suspicious)
I was in Ferelden during the 5th Blight! (Aaaand...where were you? Why were you not at Ostagar? And if you were...oh wait, you weren't, Flemeth pretty much told us that in DA2 intro.)
And of course the Western Approach when he horribly flunks the 'Calling' trivia.
Now, for an Inquisitor who has no connection to GWs, none of these would ring a bell and he could easily pass for a Warden. For a player...well, good try, but not convincing 
Good character though. Well made. Generally I like how fleshed out DAI's characters are. Even those I occasionally want to stab.
He's kind of like Jean Valjean--if Valjean's crime had been horriffic. I'm still not sure at all if I did the right thing in accepting him into my service as himself.
Cole with his mind reading abilities has a good talking-at to BW about the crime at the time it was being committed and what BW was thinking as it was going down.
Adds another layer to BW post Revelations.
Vis-a-vis a discussion about what he did in the Blackwall thread (I paraphrased the exchange that I heard between him and Cole, and then Credulous found the actual dialogue):
So to everyone who seems to be declaring him a heartless bastard, etc., what you fail to recognize is that the man who hired him lied to him. Yeah, he took money and used his own men for his own gain, but I'm under the impression that he thought it was going to be your average Game-related political assassination - and I would guess that this kind of thing happens regularly in Orlais. At this point, we all know that it's just the way that Orlesian politics work.
At the last minute, and presumably he was there with his men, Rainier heard the children's voices in the carriage and realized in that moment that he'd been lied to by the man who hired him. He probably wanted to stop things, but it was way past too late at that point, because he was effectively screwed either way. There is no doubt that Rainier of the past was a self-interested pr--- who only sought his own advancement, but he changed - a lot - and ever since then he's been trying to make up for what he did.
Also, regarding Revelations, if Blackwall/Rainier were really the same man that he once was, he would have run. But he didn't, and he even saved one of his own men from hanging. And frankly, you should probably take Blackwall and Cole with you after Revelations to hear that banter for yourself - the delivery alone when he begs Cole to stop ought to tell you the truth of the matter.
Cole doesn't lie, and he sees right into everyone's hearts. And as someone who romanced Blackwall, I realized that the man that he was then and the man that he is now are two very different things. I certainly didn't forget what he did, but I also considered everything he's done since that crime (including when he helped those fishermen learn to fight for themselves). I gave plenty of people who messed up second chances - like taking Alexius (the guy who tried to kill us) on as an agent because of everything Dorian told me about his situation. There were, I thought, sufficient extenuating circumstances in his case. Ditto on giving the Wardens a second chance even after the blood that was spilled, because I could understand that they were really scared and had done something stupid because of it. They really screwed up, but it did not wipe out all the good they had done in the past, etc.
@Credulous: Indeed, I kind of wanted to cite that dialogue too, but I was already on the verge of writing a massively huge essay on Blackwall again, haha!
I think it's fine (and a completely normal reaction for most people) to be horrified and shocked by what Blackwall/Rainier did in the past - because it was shocking and horrifying - but people can and do change over time. As bad as what he did was, I also think it ended up being a transformative experience for him. Not one that you would particularly wish on anyone, but that's how it worked out. Let me put it this way...I think he finally got his head out of his own --- after that.
I agree that what Rainier ordered his men to do was terrible. However, once the real Warden Blackwall had died saving his life, I can see it making sense to take over his identity. Blackwall had recruited Rainier, but Rainier didn't have any proof of that, now the man was dead. If the Wardens had refused to accept him, and he'd instead been tried for his crimes and executed, then the real Blackwall's death would have been in vain. Imitating the man was a way to pull something good out of that disaster.
A ton of clues were dropped throughout the story that "Blackwall" wasn't truly a Warden, and, indeed, wasn't even Blackwall. I put it together fairly easily. The only parts I didn't guess were his actual name (since the first I heard of Rainier was during Revelations) and that he'd given immoral military orders rather than simply following them. I reckoned this was fairly obvious to my Inquisitor as well. I would have liked there to be an option, after Revelations, for her to tell him that she'd guessed most of what he'd (poorly) tried to hide, but had trusted him to reveal the truth when he was ready.
To be honest, I went in spoiled, but I was pleased with the way they handled it. As others have said, it added depth to his character. Mind you, I'd have been just as happy if he had been what he seemed, but I can forgive a repentant sinner, too.
The Inquisitor's hands aren't clean, either. Just about every War Table operation involves some kind of shady dealings, ruining a merchant, forcing an unwanted alliance, outright assassinations. Leliana (who many people regard as some kind of moral compass) blithely suggests cutting out a minstrel's actual tongue for spreading gossip. That's right. (I put Josie on that mission. No way was Cadash going to deprive even a foolish minstrel of her livelihood.) Anyway, after everything the Inquisitor has to do to keep things ticking along, I find it hypocritical to condemn Blackwell. Everyone makes bad decisions. Not everyone has the courage to rescue a scapegoat. Besides, what would his death accomplish? Would it bring the Colliers back? No, but when he took Blackwell's identity, he devoted his life to serving those in need. Dead, Rainier was just another victim of Orlesian politics. Alive, Blackwell is doing some good with his life. And with the amount of guilt he carries, nothing my Cadash could possibly say to him could punish him worse than he is already punishing himself.
i'll be the minority here. My disgust came from two places: the children and family killing. I don't get the last minute thing and why he couldn't just stop it. Saving face? I don't....no that's not adding up...i have to think on this one more. The big ticker though: He impersonated a grey warden. Let me tell you something...over the course of these games, we've had 3 separate protagonists...the Warden has my immense respect. That he so casually assumed this identity is straight disrespectful. I don't find any honor in that. And lordt if you actually romanced him (I did not because...well naw)...there is no way I would trust him further let alone exchange the highest form of energy with him that is intimacy. we know of at least two lies bruh...that's just what we know.
And pls don't say "well wardens aren't perfect". I'm aware but there is a code...there is a ritual...some DIED trying to become one and you just assume the identity for what? Personal gain. Nah. He ain't low.
He's a better Warden than the actual Grey Wardens, tbh.
i'll be the minority here. My disgust came from two places: the children and family killing. I don't get the last minute thing and why he couldn't just stop it. Saving face? I don't....no that's not adding up...i have to think on this one more. The big ticker though: He impersonated a grey warden. Let me tell you something...over the course of these games, we've had 3 separate protagonists...the Warden has my immense respect. That he so casually assumed this identity is straight disrespectful. I don't find any honor in that. And lordt if you actually romanced him (I did not because...well naw)...there is no way I would trust him further let alone exchange the highest form of energy with him that is intimacy. we know of at least two lies bruh...that's just what we know.
And pls don't say "well wardens aren't perfect". I'm aware but there is a code...there is a ritual...some DIED trying to become one and you just assume the identity for what? Personal gain. Nah. He ain't low.
When you are in a fight, with a bunch of men screaming and swinging swords, you aren't going to hear your leader yelling at you to stop, its why they used trumpants, and the like to give orders.
i'll be the minority here. My disgust came from two places: the children and family killing. I don't get the last minute thing and why he couldn't just stop it. Saving face? I don't....no that's not adding up...i have to think on this one more. The big ticker though: He impersonated a grey warden. Let me tell you something...over the course of these games, we've had 3 separate protagonists...the Warden has my immense respect. That he so casually assumed this identity is straight disrespectful. I don't find any honor in that. And lordt if you actually romanced him (I did not because...well naw)...there is no way I would trust him further let alone exchange the highest form of energy with him that is intimacy. we know of at least two lies bruh...that's just what we know.
And pls don't say "well wardens aren't perfect". I'm aware but there is a code...there is a ritual...some DIED trying to become one and you just assume the identity for what? Personal gain. Nah. He ain't low.
Who said it's about saving face? It was about life and death at that point. Let's say that Rainier stopped his men from going any further - you realize that they were already attacking the carriage when he heard the voices, right? Do you think you just get to walk away from that? Because I suspect the intended target wasn't going to let that go. Furthermore, what if he stopped? He still had Chapuis to deal with and any resulting fallout. He couldn't have known that in the aftermath, Chapuis was going to poison himself in the end.
Everything, and I mean everything, would have fallen apart - he'd be executed, his men would be executed, and everything he'd worked for would have been lost. I suspect that he experienced a bit of an existential crisis. So while I'm sure he didn't want those children dead once he realized they were in there, I'm also sure that he froze up because thoughts of self-preservation were probably simultaneously running through his head.
And regarding the real Blackwall, did you forget that the real Blackwall chose Rainier to be a conscript after watching him get into a fight over a barmaid (admittedly, it was mainly because he wanted to get drunk - but he must have displayed a fair amount of skill or showed the real Blackwall the kernel of something special)? Rainier willingly went along with it because it would have given him a chance to redeem himself, not because he was going to gain anything at the point. It sounded like he would have happily drunk himself to death or gotten himself killed the way he was going.
In fact, Rainier was performing the task that the real Blackwall had sent him on - collecting darkspawn blood (presumably for his future Joining ritual) - when there was a darkspawn attack, and the real Blackwall sacrificed himself to save Rainier. Rainier actually does idealize the Wardens - probably in no small part due to the real Blackwall - but as he himself pointed out, he was a murderer, and it's unlikely that anyone would have believed his whole story if he had just shown up at the Wardens' headquarters all on his own.
So Rainier took up Blackwall's mantle - I have no doubt that part of it was to hide, but he could also do some good and keep a better man's memory alive - maybe even start making up for what he did. And if you think that being a Warden - or even posing as one - is about personal gain, I'd like to know what you are smoking. Being a Warden is pretty thankless, because unless a Blight is happening, a lot of people look down on them, fear them, or resent them. Some - like Rainier - really do seem to have genuine respect for what Wardens can be when they're living up to their ideals (and to ours), because they can be heroes.
I think what happened with the Order in DA:I simply shows in yet another way (as other characters and institutions do) that humans - in general - are fallible. Heroes aren't perfect, and there are shades of gray in every story.
I just typed up there that i'd have to think about that part more. Why are you engaging me about that? As I have no final opinion about it, that diatribe is essentially pointless.
As for the Warden portion...if you truly respect someone...there position...what they do...the sacrifices they make...why in your mind would it be okay to assume that identity and what is your purpose? This is the part I just don't understand. I love Nikki Giovanni. She is the bossiest of boss when it comes to poetry for me. If there were a way, i'd never assume her identity...I mean you're taking that persons lived experiences and making them your own for WHAT? This, again, is a point I cannot concede.
Honor the person and memory by taking up their sword and cause?
It wasn't like Rainier was using Blackwall's name to pick up chicks or impress people.
As for the Warden portion...if you truly respect someone...there position...what they do...the sacrifices they make...why in your mind would it be okay to assume that identity and what is your purpose?
He did it precisely because he did respect the sacrifice the real Blackwall made, in giving up his own life to save Rainier. He didn't want to waste that sacrifice, so he decided to make something good of his life. The only way he could feel sure of succeeding at this was if Rainier was "dead," so that the life the real Blackwall had saved wouldn't be wasted in prison or at an execution.
By the way, I don't think it's fair to call Atreiya's post a diatribe just because it is long (it's long and well thought out) or because you disagree with it. I personally don't buy into the "it was too late to stop the attack" interpretation - I see Blackwall's story as being best when it's the redemption of something truly horrible - but it is a genuinely possible interpretation of the material we have.
I just typed up there that i'd have to think about that part more. Why are you engaging me about that? As I have no final opinion about it, that diatribe is essentially pointless.
As for the Warden portion...if you truly respect someone...there position...what they do...the sacrifices they make...why in your mind would it be okay to assume that identity and what is your purpose? This is the part I just don't understand. I love Nikki Giovanni. She is the bossiest of boss when it comes to poetry for me. If there were a way, i'd never assume her identity...I mean you're taking that persons lived experiences and making them your own for WHAT? This, again, is a point I cannot concede.
You ask what his purpose was? I pretty much said it up above, but the short version is this:
I think Rainier wanted, very badly, to be a better man and to live up to the ideals that he may have felt the real Blackwall represented after the real Blackwall sacrificed his own life to save Rainier's life. Rainier basically regretted the loss of the Warden's life and didn't think it was a fair exchange that a good man had died when he seemed to consider his own life completely worthless at that point. So he took up Blackwall's name and, in a way, kept his memory alive. I think that the dialogue you get from talking to him and hearing the Cole-related banter makes it clear that his remorse is genuine.
When his true nature was revealed it did sort of caught my by surprise. However, I did suspect something was amiss. I specifically brought him with me on every mission that made sense to take a warden with and... he was strangely silent. And how was he unaffected by the Calling? And why didn't he know a thing about what other wardens were doing? And the hint in the Fade of course. So there were a lot of inclings but, to be honest, I wasn't sure at first if his story had a twist ahead or he simply was a badly written character.
Anyway, the trial. I decided that he would work for the Inquisition before joining the Wardens. In all honesty, I didn't have the heart to just go with the "Andraste forgives you!" thing. His crime was a very, very serious one. And I don't think the Inquisitor is in the right place to forgive him. How can we forgive him if we weren't the ones who suffered from his actions? So... yeah.
I must give the writers credits. The characters in this game are very diverse and, if you're roleplaying and not just making an overpowered party, you'd probably have a lot of those moments when you have to consider kicking someone out of the Inquisition because the Inquisitor you're playing simply wouldn't stand for their choices and actions.
I thought about it ... still thinking about it. I do believe in second chances, but I also believe that no matter how far we run, we can't escape the consequences of our actions, too. The good man Blackwall (Thom) became finally understood that enough to do what was right and take responsibility for his actions and stop another man from taking the fall for him. Is it really my place to intercede when he's finally owned up to what he did and become the man he claims he's always wanted to be? That's really what being a Warden is all about - sacrifice. And Thom is shouldering the blame that always should have been his and putting himself in the innocent man's place.
I can stop him from dying, but I can't give him the peace he's looking for.
I can stop him from dying, but I can't give him the peace he's looking for.
The thing is, he could never have had that peace if he'd let yet another person die for him - but, now that he's stopped from happening, it's arguable that he could eventually find peace by doing good works. I think that's exactly what's in the process of happening.
So if he's Orlesian why does he have a northern English accent?
or was he a chevalier from the Free Marches?
So if he's Orlesian why does he have a northern English accent?
or was he a chevalier from the Free Marches?
He's not Orlesian. He says he's from the Free Marches while telling you his story about the old chevalier I believe (I don't think it's romance-specific dialogue or anything). I forget if he specifically mentioned Markham during the story, but it states exactly where he's from in the codex later on (think the info is updated during the course of, or after, Revelations).
This is going to be an interesting romantic adventure for my rogue since I cannot have Cassandra.
I have to admit, I absolutely did not see Blackwall's story coming at all. I didn't really take him in many places, though, so I missed a lot of the hints.
Although I was listening to a youtube video of the Nightmare quotes recently and I did chuckle at Blackwall's: "Ah, Blackwall, Blackwall. There's nothing like a Grey Warden. And you are nothing like a Grey Warden."
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