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So Blackwall Is...(Spoilers)


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#151
Besetment

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Appropriately, his greatest fear is "Himself".

 

I just got to the big reveal and it was a shock but all the signs were there if I'm honest. The tombstone. The fact he never seems to know anything about the Wardens in conversation and ends all inquiries abrubtly, the conflicting warden account etc.

 

I just thought he was a badly written character right up until the reveal, like the budget ran out and his voice actor had to bail, cue aggressive Dragon Age 2 style downscaling.

 

Then I went to make a party, Blackwall's portrait was X'd out so I went to the barn, got the note, found out everything and well. Yeah. Bioware (and Blackwall) fooled me good.


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#152
Sizzle

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I kinda spoiled myself with this whole 'Blackwall is not really Blackwall after all' thing before I got my hands on DA:I, so when I asked him about Grey Warden-y stuff, I giggled. I felt like my Quizzy knew more about GW's than he did, with the tone she put on. :lol:



#153
Camenae

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Honestly I don't understand what the big deal is with what Blackwall did. I didn't bat an eye at the reveal, not because I suspected anything, since my approach in RPing my Inquisitor is yeah yeah yeah idc as long as you get sh*t done. I'm only getting your approval so you'll be more invested in the Inquisition.

So at the reveal I'm just like, uhhhhh, ok....So? That's what you're emoing to hell and back about? Not about all the other human beings we summarily executed? Kill first ask questions later, that has always been the Inquisition motto towards the apostates, the templar rebels, the bandits......and all other trash mobs.

Yes what he did was horrible--by OUR standards. But in that setting?? BFD.

Honestly by that time, the Inquisitor, Hawke, and the HoF have all seen--and maybe even DONE, depending on player choices--far, far, far, far worse. Ok you never killed any kids. Oh wait Connor... But he was possessed!! I mean really now, we could keep going forever but bottom line, there's pleeeenty of blood on the Inquisitor-pot to be calling the Blackwall-kettle anything.

Plus what about that poor innocent agent you sent to die in Blackwall's place in order to get him out? I get that it depends on who I chose to do the mission, and I was like oh oops sorry dude, I didn't want to do that. But nothing I could do about it.
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#154
Lunch Box1912

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That guy is a scumbag liar. I don't care if he is sorry about it now he left his accomplices in which he deceitfully led to carry out a murder for his own profit to take the blame for his crimes. Not to mention he totally lied to me for the entire game…and if you play as a female character he snoops around your room.

 

I left that lying coward pervert to rot in the Orlais prison and if i was given the option I would have lopped off his head.



#155
PoisonSmog

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I agree with Camenae; when I first found out, I was like, So? There are way many more people in that universe that have done worse. And I'm pretty sure that my HoF would do what he did without flinching and has killed way more innocent people than he has. Of course, there wasn't an option that said "I don't care, you're helping me anyway." So I ended up making him my servant. He wasn't really happy about that but what he did didn't matter to me in the first place.

I know it seems harsh, but in the current situation that we were in, what his past was seemed irrelevant compared to the main antagonist's actions.
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#156
Bugsie

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Honestly I don't understand what the big deal is with what Blackwall did. I didn't bat an eye at the reveal, not because I suspected anything, since my approach in RPing my Inquisitor is yeah yeah yeah idc as long as you get sh*t done. I'm only getting your approval so you'll be more invested in the Inquisition.

So at the reveal I'm just like, uhhhhh, ok....So? That's what you're emoing to hell and back about? Not about all the other human beings we summarily executed? Kill first ask questions later, that has always been the Inquisition motto towards the apostates, the templar rebels, the bandits......and all other trash mobs.

Yes what he did was horrible--by OUR standards. But in that setting?? BFD.

Honestly by that time, the Inquisitor, Hawke, and the HoF have all seen--and maybe even DONE, depending on player choices--far, far, far, far worse. Ok you never killed any kids. Oh wait Connor... But he was possessed!! I mean really now, we could keep going forever but bottom line, there's pleeeenty of blood on the Inquisitor-pot to be calling the Blackwall-kettle anything.

Plus what about that poor innocent agent you sent to die in Blackwall's place in order to get him out? I get that it depends on who I chose to do the mission, and I was like oh oops sorry dude, I didn't want to do that. But nothing I could do about it.

People have taken his betrayal as extremely personal.  There is no supposed 'greater good' to allow people to rationalise or excuse what he did like they have done with other characters in DA, it makes people very uncomfortable (yay for not everything being sunshine and bloody roses).  Makes his arc unique in that respect.

 

The fact he never excuses himself either, and thinks he deserves nothing but death is what gives my player agency to make him atone.  Kudos to Bioware for allowing me to make those decisions and not make it so black and white ie you can leave him to die, make him enter servitude, put a delayed death sentence on him (the wardens) or make him atone and give his character agency to 'do the right thing'


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#157
MuhidinSaid

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Blackwall being a fake warden kind of makes me think. Is the joining really worth it? I mean, apart from needing the darkspawn taint to contain and destroy an archdemon's soul during a blight, it really does not seem worth it. You can sense darkspawn, and you're temporarily immune to the taint, but they can sense you too. Chalk that up to a drastically reduced lifespan, terrfying dreams, and being driven slowly by the calling. Blackwall's probably had run ins with darkspawns and grey wardens in his time, probably not in any official capacity with the wardens but the point still stands, the ones at adamant actually join you if you let blackwall rally them. They saw him as one of their own. And he's had no problem surviving.

 

Call me crazy but outside of a blight the joining really isn't even needed. Avernus is a special case, and even he had to use sacrifices to even properly utilize the darkspawn taint to extend his lifespan and magical powers. 

 

Thoughts? I think this will definitely come up with the hero of ferelden in the future, who is searching for a cure for the calling.



#158
Feranel

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I definitely suspected he had some shady past. I knew he wasn't a Gray Warden because of all the signs pointing towards it but I didn't know he had sent his men out to murder someone. Because I was romancing him, I abused my power to send an imposter in his place to die and let him go free to 'atone' himself... in my bed. :D

 

I had suspicions on my first playthrough, now on my second playthrough it's interesting to see all the hinting at it, like when you meet Hawke's Warden Ally, you can totally see Blackwall bluffing "Yeah, uhm, the Calling, I'm just so awesome it doesn't affect me, yeah, that thing, the 'Calling' (is that what kids are calling it these days?)... Yeah...."



#159
Bugsie

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Blackwall being a fake warden kind of makes me think. Is the joining really worth it? I mean, apart from needing the darkspawn taint to contain and destroy an archdemon's soul during a blight, it really does not seem worth it. You can sense darkspawn, and you're temporarily immune to the taint, but they can sense you too. Chalk that up to a drastically reduced lifespan, terrfying dreams, and being driven slowly by the calling. Blackwall's probably had run ins with darkspawns and grey wardens in his time, probably not in any official capacity with the wardens but the point still stands, the ones at adamant actually join you if you let blackwall rally them. They saw him as one of their own. And he's had no problem surviving.

 

Call me crazy but outside of a blight the joining really isn't even needed. Avernus is a special case, and even he had to use sacrifices to even properly utilize the darkspawn taint to extend his lifespan and magical powers. 

 

Thoughts? I think this will definitely come up with the hero of ferelden in the future, who is searching for a cure for the calling.

I don't see why the grey wardens couldn't recruit without the joining but still have those leading required to go through with it in order to seek out darkspawn.



#160
MuhidinSaid

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Yeah, or at least create some sort of modified joining. I found it odd that the hero of ferelden didn't double back to soldier's peak to take another look at Avernus's research. That would definitely prove useful in delaying the calling.

 

What if the grey wardens became immortal veterans because of this kind of research. They'd prove pretty useful in combating the next two blights and the aftermath.



#161
Rekkampum

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No amount of good deeds could overlook what he'd done prior to taking on his false identity, so I gave him a just punishment and promised to give him to the Wardens when all was said and done.



#162
Bugsie

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Yeah, or at least create some sort of modified joining. I found it odd that the hero of ferelden didn't double back to soldier's peak to take another look at Avernus's research. That would definitely prove useful in delaying the calling.

 

What if the grey wardens became immortal veterans because of this kind of research. They'd prove pretty useful in combating the next two blights and the aftermath.

Eh not keen on the immortal veterans idea, living a tad longer based on the research ok, but immortal?  Nah.



#163
Besetment

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Honestly I don't understand what the big deal is with what Blackwall did. I didn't bat an eye at the reveal, not because I suspected anything, since my approach in RPing my Inquisitor is yeah yeah yeah idc as long as you get sh*t done. I'm only getting your approval so you'll be more invested in the Inquisition.

So at the reveal I'm just like, uhhhhh, ok....So? That's what you're emoing to hell and back about? Not about all the other human beings we summarily executed? Kill first ask questions later, that has always been the Inquisition motto towards the apostates, the templar rebels, the bandits......and all other trash mobs.

Yes what he did was horrible--by OUR standards. But in that setting?? BFD.

Honestly by that time, the Inquisitor, Hawke, and the HoF have all seen--and maybe even DONE, depending on player choices--far, far, far, far worse. Ok you never killed any kids. Oh wait Connor... But he was possessed!! I mean really now, we could keep going forever but bottom line, there's pleeeenty of blood on the Inquisitor-pot to be calling the Blackwall-kettle anything.

Plus what about that poor innocent agent you sent to die in Blackwall's place in order to get him out? I get that it depends on who I chose to do the mission, and I was like oh oops sorry dude, I didn't want to do that. But nothing I could do about it.

 

Its always going to be difficult to do ethics in videogames where for the longest time, the goal is to kill bad guys until theres none left, at which point you win the game. So I agree with you in the sense that its not an easy thing to convey moral conflict in games where you cant go anywhere or do anything without killing loads of people first.

 

Thus distinctions are made. You kill faceless combatants and moustache twirling villians. Thom's company kills civilians and children. You say you do it for some greater good and it normally ends with you achieving that greater good anyway. Thom says he did it for money. You operate openly under your own identity, ready to face the judgement of a fictional society (which will never actually condemn you because you are the hero of the story). Thom flees and lets his company face retribution. He assumes a different identity to escape the judgement of this fictional society.

 

So we arrive at a weird place where the act of killing isn't what triggers moral outrage. Like you say, your character kills hundreds of faceless red shirts - so many that its just normal, which is a disturbing thought in itself. With Blackwall, I would argue that its the cowardice and deception that triggers moral outrage. It is his willingness to atone that triggers moral conflict. What do you do with a dishonorable man who is trying to be honorable? Ultimately, most players will probably choose to give Blackwall an opportunity for redemption so they can keep the best tank in the game. Thats ethics + videogames in a nutshell really.

 

So yeah, its all over the place. Its illogical and morally inconsistent to the point of a double standard. Its also quite a common method of excusing violence in entertainment. I would really like to play a narrative focused game that asks very difficult questions of the player and which present moral dilemmas that have no easy or feel good solutions. Where you must take a logically consistent ethical position and live with the consequences of it, however bad things end up being. Sort of like Naked Lunch - The Game. But this sort of thing is not very marketable or popular, which is probably why game narratives tend not to go there.


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#164
Camenae

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Its always going to be difficult to do ethics in videogames where for the longest time, the goal is to kill bad guys until theres none left, at which point you win the game. So I agree with you in the sense that its not an easy thing to convey moral conflict in games where you cant go anywhere or do anything without killing loads of people first.

 

Thus distinctions are made. You kill faceless combatants and moustache twirling villians. Thom's company kills civilians and children. You say you do it for some greater good and it normally ends with you achieving that greater good anyway. Thom says he did it for money. You operate openly under your own identity, ready to face the judgement of a fictional society (which will never actually condemn you because you are the hero of the story). Thom flees and lets his company face retribution. He assumes a different identity to escape the judgement of this fictional society.

 

So we arrive at a weird place where the act of killing isn't what triggers moral outrage. Like you say, your character kills hundreds of faceless red shirts - so many that its just normal, which is a disturbing thought in itself. With Blackwall, I would argue that its the cowardice and deception that triggers moral outrage. It is his willingness to atone that triggers moral conflict. What do you do with a dishonorable man who is trying to be honorable? Ultimately, most players will probably choose to give Blackwall an opportunity for redemption so they can keep the best tank in the game. Thats ethics + videogames in a nutshell really.

 

So yeah, its all over the place. Its illogical and morally inconsistent to the point of a double standard. Its also quite a common method of excusing violence in entertainment. I would really like to play a narrative focused game that asks very difficult questions of the player and which present moral dilemmas that have no easy or feel good solutions. Where you must take a logically consistent ethical position and live with the consequences of it, however bad things end up being. Sort of like Naked Lunch - The Game. But this sort of thing is not very marketable or popular, which is probably why game narratives tend not to go there.

 

I like this.  I read it a couple times because it gave me some more thoughts.  

 

It is a double-standard: I would just still feel quite ridiculous to get all righteous over what Blackwall did.  I tried out the conversation options that condemn him ("You're nothing but a murderer!" "*I* would never do anything like this!") and I was just embarrassed hearing myself say those lines and wanted to punch my Inquisitor's self-righteous hypocritical face.  

 

I get the personal nature of the lies and the betrayal is the infuriating enough part all by itself.  But again, not like the Inquisitor is always straight up.  Doesn't really go out of their way to tell people that it WASN'T Andraste in the Fade, regardless of what conversation option you pick.  Also has the option of lying to Cassandra about a simple background question FOR NO REASON.   

 

No knocks on Blackwall from me for him doing it for the money, either.  Maybe it's just me, but I kill those poor red shirts all over the place just for the experience and to loot them for money.  They probably have sob stories and kids of their own who will now starve without their providers, but we don't care, lol. Heck, those bandits' back stories are probably more sympathetic than the Orlesian noble family that Blackwall killed--We all know what wonderful people that bunch is.  

 

NOT saying those kids deserved to die or anything, but I thought that was just what happened in a power struggle... Blackwall DOES think that Gaspard should be the emperor, doesn't he?  I mean you get approval from him if you support Gaspard.  So how was him taking that hit job against the agent of Gaspard's enemy a betrayal?  I think it's more like him just doing his job.  The way it works is the Orlesian military doesn't necessarily care who's on the throne and they just obey their commander (according to Cullen).  So Blackwall supporting his commander by taking on a job to whack one of the supporters of his commander's enemy...WITH OR WITHOUT BEING PAID, that sounds like par for the course to me.  I find it very odd that he felt so bad about it being treason--Would've made more sense if he thought, yeah technically it IS treason against the at-the-time official ruler of Orlais, but I was faithfully serving the person I've always served.  

 

What realistically would have happened is even if he wanted to spare the kids he would've been ordered to kill them.  To use a Chinese saying, you must kill weeds at the root.  Same reason I found it implausible that Cassandra and her brother were spared from her family's punishment for treason towards the king.  To tie up loose ends--e.g. kids growing up hating you for executing their family and coming back for vengeance--pretty sure they would've also been killed.  The uncle too.   Yeah they DIDN'T grow up hating the king but the king wouldn't have known that at the time and would've had no reason to take the risk.  


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#165
Livia29

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I just finished this mission. I had a feeling he was a fraud (I actually thought he was a pirate or something because of what he says on the storm coast LOL) but I didn't see what he actually did coming. It pissed my Inquisitor off but she believed in second chances and gave him to the Wardens.

 

If you put him in servitude he acts like a little bastard, letting him atone just doesn't feel right as he sounds like he got off the hook or something. It just felt weird. This whole quest just made me sad.



#166
berelinde

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Left him to rot (and possibly get executed?). I'm bitter like that. I was super mad too, cause he was wearing some of my best gear at the time, so I basically threw that out the window. They really should put these things into the "special delivery" chest. Those things belonged to the Inquisition! 

I thought that about a certain other character at the end of the game. And there was literally no way to get it back.



#167
oceanicsurvivor

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He may have atoned for his betrayal and the murders, but what upset me/my Inquisitor was his irresponsibility with the wardens. He kept talking about how the Wardens are just a promise etc, because he didn't know about how they are REALLY needed to end a blight. His misinformation could have had horrific implications, and was generally absurdly arrogant and irresponsible. Yes, he was a traitor who murdered people, but even if you get past that the lie he perpetuated was harmful in many ways. So I kept him around, knowing he would be sent to become a Warden afterwards. I hope(d) he would survive the Joining just so he could learn how wrong he was about the Wardens significance.

 

Don't get me wrong though, he's a great character :)



#168
BubbleDncr

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My Inquisitor was just saddened by his reveal. Up until that point he was my first choice as a warrior in my party, and I feel like my Inquisitor had a lot of respect for him, and considered him a good friend.

 

I don't know how I would have reacted if I had been in a romance with him. But as his friend, it just made me sad. But I stuck by him, and encouraged him to make amends for for his past.



#169
Ryzaki

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I thought that about a certain other character at the end of the game. And there was literally no way to get it back.

 

Oh man me too :( he had my best armor on. The best armor.



#170
Willowhugger

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i'll be the minority here. My disgust came from two places: the children and family killing. I don't get the last minute thing and why he couldn't just stop it. Saving face? I don't....no that's not adding up...i have to think on this one more. The big ticker though: He impersonated a grey warden. Let me tell you something...over the course of these games, we've had 3 separate protagonists...the Warden has my immense respect. That he so casually assumed this identity is straight disrespectful. I don't find any honor in that. And lordt if you actually romanced him (I did not because...well naw)...there is no way I would trust him further let alone exchange the highest form of energy with him that is intimacy. we know of at least two lies bruh...that's just what we know.

And pls don't say "well wardens aren't perfect". I'm aware but there is a code...there is a ritual...some DIED trying to become one and you just assume the identity for what? Personal gain. Nah. He ain't low.

 

I actually think it should be important to understand the Wardens aren't just perfect, they're actually kind of awful people.

 

They romanticize sacrifice and evil in the name of the greater good.

And we see how it destroys countless lives in this game.

Blackwall isn't a Warden.

Wardens kill the innocent.

Blackwall saves them.

 

 

What realistically would have happened is even if he wanted to spare the kids he would've been ordered to kill them.  To use a Chinese saying, you must kill weeds at the root.  Same reason I found it implausible that Cassandra and her brother were spared from her family's punishment for treason towards the king.  To tie up loose ends--e.g. kids growing up hating you for executing their family and coming back for vengeance--pretty sure they would've also been killed.  The uncle too.   Yeah they DIDN'T grow up hating the king but the king wouldn't have known that at the time and would've had no reason to take the risk.

 

Fun historical fact: Killing the heirs of people you execute actually was something people did in places and indeed, the "vendetta" thing had the idea you'd do this. In Albania and Sicily, the effect turned out to be this is massively stupid as wiping out whole families turns out to be a lot harder than people think.

You kill every son of a man? Then the daughters husbands want him dead and you kill them? You need to fight THEIR families. They even lampshade it in the Godfather when Michael visits a village with no men between 10 and 50.

 

In actual nobility, it almost never happened.

 

King John (of Robin Hood fame) and Richard III are ambiguous about their murdering children and are STILL vilified for it centuries later.

In Cassandra's case, killing the children of two royals (however distant) would probably be a rallying cry for political enemies. Instead, they were just given to creepy nobility.



#171
hyacinth macaw

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My Lavellan mage let him walk because he seemed truly sorry about the whole mess and she's generally merciful. It also helped that they were lovers.

 

Personally, as a player, I didn't enjoy the romance from that point forward. The "Stolen Valor" **** was hard to stomach, especially because he had this romanticized idea about the Grey Wardens.

 

My Inquisitor will probably send him to the Wardens on my next play-through.



#172
Kuvira

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I dunno, I can't get too mad, because my body count at that point is ridiculously high. With the number of rebels I've murdered, turncoats I've assassinated, and people I've exiled, I'm sure more than a few orphans starved to death because their parent didn't come back.

 

Heck, half of the Orlesian court has probably done something equally sinister, and I have to go smile and gab with them, as they are insulated by their power. They will never atone, or even feel sorry. Blackwall at least did the freaking time, he basically put himself on a chain gang, killing darkspawn relentlessly across Thedas.

 

My first playthrough I set him free. I'm debating whether to do it again, or send him to the Wardens this time. He's ironically one of the best Wardens they have. And having someone who idealizes the idea of what they are-instead of being obsessed with blood magic-fueled pyrrhic victory-might actually be good for them. He's charismatic, an excellent fighter, and has a treasure-trove of lost Grey Warden knowledge. He'd be a great addition to help them rebuild, imo.

 

But then I remember that Wardens are hierarchical idiots and even if he survives the joining, there's a good chance he won't be able to influence anything on a wide scale. In which case, I've just burned one of the best warriors in Thedas for no good reason. Decisions, decisions.


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#173
BAC PARTY CITY

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Just got to this part and I was pretty shocked.

 

 

I'm kind of a little dumbfounded because of all the prior warden stuff I did with Blackwall. All the sealing of the darkspawn tunnels. Talking with him about the Warden order how quick he was to defend them. And than all the discussions about Coryphious and everything at Adamant.  SO AFTER ALL THAT YOUR GOING TO TELL ME HE'S NOT EVEN A GREY WARDEN?! REALLY?! I DIDN'T EVE SEE THIS HINTED AT DURING MY GAME.

 

 

I honestly don't know what to do with him. It's annoying because I lose another character to store good armor on. But I'm not just going to ignore his actions. He is responsible for slaughtering men, women and children for blood money. Worse he deceived his loyal soldiers and had them take the blame. How many of the men under his command paid for their actions while Blackwall was off pretending to be someone else. Sure he eventually went back after the guilt was too much.

 

 

So I've got to think about what I want to do. Orlaise is an ally so I could pull some strings, but they are the injured party here so part of me just wants to let them handle him. Sure Blackwall is a good soldier and probably the third or fourth best sword and shield warrior in the inquisition, but I don't need him back. I've built the inquisition into a force that can't be rivaled, its more than just one warrior. It definitely looks wise publicly if we take him back, and I'm not willing to do anything underhanded to free him.

 

 

So now I've got to weigh if its worth the trouble to get him back and if its the right thing to do. Yes he can be useful to the inquisition but freeing him is almost like giving him a past for his prior actions and thats not really my call to make. I'm just going to let him sit in prison while I think about this. Wish there was an option to talk to Celine and Briala about this and see what they think.



#174
Korva

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Celene and Briala are politicians at the pinnacle of power in the motherland of "the Great Game". They have assuredly done a lot worse than Thom Rainier, will continue to do so, and don't feel a fraction of his remorse for it, either. I got them back together, but I don't like, trust or respect them as far as I could throw a high dragon. It's all politics with them, left mainly in Josie's and Leliana's capable hands.

 

I think Blackwall's secret makes him a more interesting character than he would have been without it. Alistair made sense as this naive guy who happily idolizes the Wardens because 1) he was a severely neglected kid whom no one's ever wanted before, 2) he's a pretty raw recruit still, and 3) Duncan had a soft spot for "his" recruits and tried to shield them from the worst truths while he could. If Blackwall had been who he said, his idealism would either have been a severe delusion, or we'd have a veteran Warden struggling to make the order better than he knows they are before he breaks under truths he doesn't want to face. Not exactly "respectable" options, either way. Mind, our Blackwall committed heinous acts, and if he'd been truly serious about the Warden business he should have continued where the real Blackwall wanted him to go, even without his recruiter's word of support, and taken that Joining. But I like the fact that he remains flawed even in atonement. That ****'s not easy. In my game, he's learning just how hard it is, because I gave him his freedom. Not as an act of blind mercy, but as a test of his resolve. With nothing to bind him but his own guilt and remorse, how serious is he really about wanting to change? Also, he's served well so far, liar or no, and my Inquisitor is rather big on the "second chances" deal because bathing the world in even more blood isn't going to fix much of anything.

 

Plus, the banters between Blackwall and Cole after the completion of both their missions are very touching, especially with a more spirit-like Cole. They really are a pair, as Blackwall says.


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#175
DarkKnightHolmes

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I didn't care for a second what he did before becoming Blackwall. We've had a team of killers for 3 straight games (and an expansion pack). Why should I start judging them for their action now?