352 réponses à ce sujet

[JackPoint]

Well for one hes a child killer/Mass murderer, buut lets not dabble in morality too much. 1st playthrough i let him die, 2nd playthrough i exiled him to Anderfells, but i still think letting him hang is the better choice.

[AtreiyaN7]

Well for one hes a child killer/Mass murderer, buut lets not dabble in morality too much. 1st playthrough i let him die, 2nd playthrough i exiled him to Anderfells, but i still think letting him hang is the better choice.

And maybe you ought to think about what Cullen says about it because it's not that simple. Cullen hates what Blackwall did, but as even he points out, Blackwall was home-free at that point and had pretty much escaped his past. He could've kept living his lie and not bothered with saving Mornay. Instead, he turns around, chooses to stop lying, and saves Mornay.

It is a morally complex situation, and it's made clear during Revelations that he's now more than just some random murderer. He was a mercenary in the past to be sure and killed for gold - he was even a coward for running - but it should be pretty obvious that his change to being a better man is genuine by that point. In the prison scene, it's clear just from listening to him (unless someone is emotionally tone-deaf) that Blackwall is filled with self-loathing and hates himself for what he did, which is, as far as I'm concerned, the mark of someone who has a conscience.

Whether that's enough for the player is up to them, but I certainly thought he merited a second chance at redemption like almost everyone else in the game. Even if I hadn't been in a romance with him, I still would've given him a second chance. If the Wardens can earn a pass despite nearly summoning a demon army and being complicit in Justinia's death for their actions at the Conclave, then hey, I can forgive a genuinely repentant man for a couple of unintentional deaths (and he didn't know that children would be there - now whether or not Ser Robert purposely lied to him is something that is up for debate, although I've generally been of the opinion that Ser Robert flat-out lied to him).

[CredulousAlloy]

And maybe you ought to think about what Cullen says about it because it's not that simple. Cullen hates what Blackwall did, but as even he points out, Blackwall was home-free at that point and had pretty much escaped his past. He could've kept living his lie and not bothered with saving Mornay. Instead, he turns around, chooses to stop lying, and saves Mornay.

It is a morally complex situation, and it's made clear during Revelations that he's now more than just some random murderer. He was a mercenary in the past to be sure and killed for gold - he was even a coward for running - but it should be pretty obvious that his change to being a better man is genuine by that point. In the prison scene, it's clear just from listening to him (unless someone is emotionally tone-deaf) that Blackwall is filled with self-loathing and hates himself for what he did, which is, as far as I'm concerned, the mark of someone who has a conscience.

Whether that's enough for the player is up to them, but I certainly thought he merited a second chance at redemption like almost everyone else in the game. Even if I hadn't been in a romance with him, I still would've given him a second chance. If the Wardens can earn a pass despite nearly summoning a demon army and being complicit in Justinia's death for their actions at the Conclave, then hey, I can forgive a genuinely repentant man for a couple of unintentional deaths (and he didn't know that children would be there - now whether or not Ser Robert purposely lied to him is something that is up for debate, although I've generally been of the opinion that Ser Robert flat-out lied to him).

This is basically my stance too.

Also, calling him a child killer, while technically accurate, seems pretty spurious as it implies his actual intent was to go out and slaughter a bunch of infants, when that's not even close to what happened. As far as we're aware (as per various statements from Cole and Blackwall's conversation in jail) :

1. His employer misled him (if not outright lied to him) by telling him Lord Callier was only travelling with soldiers and bodyguards;
2. Although he ordered the attack, he didn't actually participate in the killing;
3. When he found out Callier's wife and children were with him, he wanted to call off the attack. Unfortunately, he didn't (for whatever reason...fear, cowardice, or some combination of the two).

 

Make no mistake, the Thom Rainier of the past was a despicable person either way - I'm not excusing his choices or the man he used to be (he doesn't, either), but IMO the events of his past aren't as black and white as the term "child killer" might suggest.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

And maybe you ought to think about what Cullen says about it because it's not that simple. Cullen hates what Blackwall did, but as even he points out, Blackwall was home-free at that point and had pretty much escaped his past. He could've kept living his lie and not bothered with saving Mornay. Instead, he turns around, chooses to stop lying, and saves Mornay.

You're right. We should let any mass murderer go free in the event they turn themselves in. That won't set a bad precedent at all. The truth is it is that simple: Rainier is a mass murderer. No matter what he does, that is a fact. 

 

It is a morally complex situation, and it's made clear during Revelations that he's now more than just some random murderer. He was a mercenary in the past to be sure and killed for gold - he was even a coward for running - but it should be pretty obvious that his change to being a better man is genuine by that point. In the prison scene, it's clear just from listening to him (unless someone is emotionally tone-deaf) that Blackwall is filled with self-loathing and hates himself for what he did, which is, as far as I'm concerned, the mark of someone who has a conscience.

No, it's not morally complex.

Good, he should hate himself. Doesn't mean he shouldn't still be punished just because several years after the massacre he listened to his conscience. 

 

Whether that's enough for the player is up to them, but I certainly thought he merited a second chance at redemption like almost everyone else in the game. Even if I hadn't been in a romance with him, I still would've given him a second chance. If the Wardens can earn a pass despite nearly summoning a demon army and being complicit in Justinia's death for their actions at the Conclave, then hey, I can forgive a genuinely repentant man for a couple of unintentional deaths (and he didn't know that children would be there - now whether or not Ser Robert purposely lied to him is something that is up for debate, although I've generally been of the opinion that Ser Robert flat-out lied to him).

So regardless of crime, you'd let someone not receive any form of punishment just because they feel sorry about what they did? That is certainly virtuous, but definitely not just.

 

 

This is basically my stance too.

Also, calling him a child killer, while technically accurate, seems pretty spurious as it implies his actual intent was to go out and slaughter a bunch of infants, when that's not even close to what happened. As far as we're aware (as per various statements from Cole and Blackwall's conversation in jail) :

1. His employer misled him (if not outright lied to him) by telling him Lord Callier was only travelling with soldiers and bodyguards;
2. Although he ordered the attack, he didn't actually participate in the killing;
3. When he found out Callier's wife and children were with him, he wanted to call off the attack. Unfortunately, he didn't (for whatever reason...fear, cowardice, or some combination of the two).

 

Make no mistake, the Thom Rainier of the past was a despicable person either way - I'm not excusing his choices or the man he used to be (he doesn't, either), but IMO the events of his past aren't as black and white as the term "child killer" might suggest.

What 'technically'? It flat out is accurate. 

Did he kill children? Yes he did. Thus he is a child killer.

[God]

I judged him on the basis of Blackwall, not Rainier. I never knew the previous man, and the one with me had always been a staunch supporter and believer in my cause. He was a man crippled with his actions long before, believing he had no way to ever be better than he once was.

 

So I kept him, and challenged him to keep living up to the man and the ideal that he aspired to. I made him become a Warden, not as a punishment, but because the Warden's need people like him who are willing to take more of a step forward than most others on real issues that affect the now, not just the Darkspawn.

 

In some ways, he is the ideal Warden that he so ascribes to be. 

 

Don't live for Rainier, live for Blackwall.

 

IMO, even a mass murderer and child killer can find atonement, and I'll not be so blind as to deny him that based on a rigid moral system I don't believe in. 

[Ryzaki]

Eh I give him the sentence the real Blackwall sentenced him to.

 

Life as a Warden sucks but it has purpose. So I felt it perfect for him. Besides many wardens have do just as bad or worse.

 

(That and my more innocent quizzies *the ones who try to avoid killing people unless they absolutely must* sent him to be exiled with the rest of the wardens at Adamant so lol).

 

And the murder of the children didn't really get in my craw (I like Sten and he's guilty of the same crime) but his personality left me cold (that and how easily he becomes hostile and b*****) his romance left me facepalming (the judgement scene. By god. And the naked in the barn while avoidable was trashy). So yeah. Life to serving as a warden for the crime of me not liking him very much.

[ctd757]

I kept .him around because he is a good warrior. But he is lame for faking like he is a Warden

[Catwall]

"Morally questionable people? In MY Inquisition?" I exclaim as I pick the lock to a chest in a farmer's house, helping myself to its contents, though my stuffed inventory tells me that I want for nothing.

 

"I don't tolerate people who have made serious mistakes," I say to myself as I heed the advice of a drug addicted former Templar.

 

Personally, I love Blackwall's character. I like that he is an extended exercise in subverted expectations. The moralist who is also a criminal, the villain who wears a hero's face long enough to develop a hero's heart.

[BAC PARTY CITY]

Still thinking about this. As the Inquisitor I've got to hold the Inquisition to a high standard. Sure I liked the guy I thought was Blackwall, but now I've got to question everything not sure if I really know him.

 

This also isn't an easily pardonable offense. Beyond killing the family and their men he also deceived his men and sentenced many of them to death because of their actions.

 

So I'm honestly not sure if its worth pulling strings for Blackwall because it makes the inquisition look bad. Right now the Inquisition is in a good place we have tons of allies and act in a moral responsible way.  It's going to be hard to justify freeing Blackwall and if I do so whatever actions I take do not reflect well on the inquisition.

 

Yeah in previous judgements I tended utilized others as agents for the greater good of stopping Coryphious. But Blackwall doesn't really offer what the previous judgements did.

 

Avaar Tribesman -Arm and Banish him to Tevintar

(dude didn't really do anything bad, his son captured my men and paid a heavy price for it. So win win here)

 

Alexis- I want him researching Magic

(Technically I stopped him before he did anything too terrible that I'm aware of. Better to get some use out of him against Coryphious. His magical expertise has been incredibly useful in the fight and toward strengthening the inquisition.)

 

Servis- I made him a smuggler.

(He has done some bad things and indirectly aided Corypheous, but his skills as a smuggler are a great asset. Another example of putting him to good use to fill a need. His actions will help to make up for the harm he caused.)

 

Mayor Dedrick- sent to the Grey Wardens to atone.

(If he is telling the truth he wasn't totally in the wrong he did save some people. Still lying about what he did was wrong, and there may have been a better solution if he actually talked about it with others first. So sending him to the Grey Wardens where he has a high possibility of dying fighting the Darkspawn in those Darkspawn missions seemed fair. Exile would have just been a gift and I'm not in favor of the death penalty if someone can be useful to society in some way.)

 

Erimond- killed him.

(He was too dangerous to live. He needed to pay for his crimes and wasn't going to waste money feeding this dude in prison. His crimes were far to heinous to be allowed to live.)

 

Ser Ruth- I didn't judge her.

(This was tough but I needed the Wardens for the Inquisition. She was a soldier I would use against the darkspawn. The Wardens were actually deceived. I don't think giving her life was a good atonement. She still had value as a soldier and I sent the Wardens up agains the darkspawn where most died anyway) 

 

Grand Duchess Florianne- Made a Jester-

(this was tough I almost made her an agent. But I didn't trust letting her go. Also seemed really unfair to let her go back to her life of luxury after all the people she had killed. Better to keep her close so I could keep an eye on her. Also the shame of being a jester and imprisoned by the inquisition of rht erest of her life seemed fitting. She actually got off kind of easy now that I think about it. She's lucky I didn't kill her.)

 

 

 

Now that I know Blackwall doesn't really have any Grey Warden knowledge and is just a cetera soldier he doesn't have that much value to the inquisition. And I can't let my personal feelings sway me too much here. I've got to represent the inquisition here. I don't want to see Blackwall die, because I think he can actually be a benefit fighting. Thats better than him dying. But I'm not going to simply set him free thats just naive. I may be inclined to give him the chance to try and partially atone for his sins. If its worth it to the inquisition and doesn't hurt our image too much. But as a good leader I can't completely pardon a man and just assume his guilt is sufficient punishment and I can't trust a man who has been lying to me for over 90 hours of gameplay. So I'm either going to let him rot in jail or force him into indentured servitude of the inquisition. I can't decide which yet.

[BAC PARTY CITY]

Also I have to think about how other people in the Inquisition will view him.

 

What are my soldiers going to think about a man leading them into battle when they know he lied and damned his previous soldiers.   Ugh this is so tough Bioware!

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Now that I know Blackwall doesn't really have any Grey Warden knowledge and is just a cetera soldier he doesn't have that much value to the inquisition. And I can't let my personal feelings sway me too much here. I've got to represent the inquisition here. I don't want to see Blackwall die, because I think he can actually be a benefit fighting. Thats better than him dying. But I'm not going to simply set him free thats just naive. I may be inclined to give him the chance to try and partially atone for his sins. If its worth it to the inquisition and doesn't hurt our image too much. But as a good leader I can't completely pardon a man and just assume his guilt is sufficient punishment and I can't trust a man who has been lying to me for over 90 hours of gameplay. So I'm either going to let him rot in jail or force him into indentured servitude of the inquisition. I can't decide which yet.

Well, if you don't mind him being angry at you I definitely recommend the conscription option. You get to keep a useful soldier while still maintaining the image of the Inquisition being just since he is still being punished for his crimes. 

[Broganisity]

Blackwall's idealism of the Wardens is like Alistair's.

Only Blackwall isn't a whiny little ****** who throws tantrums and storms off when he doesn't get his way. Blackwall spent his entire time after his incident redeeming himself. Ignoring that because you are mad is stupid. Give him to the Grey Wardens, let him become what he has been trying to be this whole time.

 

He's been paying for his crime ever since, may as well make his penance official and send him to the wardens.

[Milan92]

 

Now that I know Blackwall doesn't really have any Grey Warden knowledge and is just a cetera soldier he doesn't have that much value to the inquisition. And I can't let my personal feelings sway me too much here. I've got to represent the inquisition here. I don't want to see Blackwall die, because I think he can actually be a benefit fighting. Thats better than him dying. But I'm not going to simply set him free thats just naive. I may be inclined to give him the chance to try and partially atone for his sins. If its worth it to the inquisition and doesn't hurt our image too much. But as a good leader I can't completely pardon a man and just assume his guilt is sufficient punishment and I can't trust a man who has been lying to me for over 90 hours of gameplay. So I'm either going to let him rot in jail or force him into indentured servitude of the inquisition. I can't decide which yet.

 

Sending Blackwall to the wardens is the best way. He atones for his sins, while really doing something useful. Its also what the original Blackwall wanted.

[Ryzaki]

Blackwall's idealism of the Wardens is like Alistair's.

Only Blackwall isn't a whiny little ****** who throws tantrums and storms off when he doesn't get his way. Blackwall spent his entire time after his incident redeeming himself. Ignoring that because you are mad is stupid. Give him to the Grey Wardens, let him become what he has been trying to be this whole time.

 

Yeah and I only let it slide with Alistair because he was young. Blackwall too old to be that naive.

 

Someone clearly hasn't heard his hostile conversation. (And you only need -30 approval to get it which is pretty much 1 greatly disapproves and one more disapproves). That's...exactly what he does.

 

Amusingly enough he's less reasonable about that then Sera is who will keep working with a Inquisitor she doesn't agree with.

[Milan92]

Well, if you don't mind him being angry at you I definitely recommend the conscription option. You get to keep a useful soldier while still maintaining the image of the Inquisition being just since he is still being punished for his crimes. 

 

All it does is giving you an image that you're too immature to judge him properly. Letting emotions cloud judgement is one of the worst things a leader can do.

 

For someone who claims that he stands for justice, you really have a strange idea of the concept.

[Ryzaki]

All it does is giving you an image that you're too immature to judge him properly. Letting emotions cloud judgement is one of the worst things a leader can do.

 

For someone who claims that he stands for justice, you really have a strange idea of the concept.

 

Well there's nothing wrong with playing an immature PC. My PC said time and time again he/she didn't want to lead. Since they forced him into the line (with the whole "Well if you don't you'll be alone and Cory will get you" line) they can suck it up and deal with his crappy decisions.

 

It's a fun way to play. Being lead around by someone who's barely an adult because they walked into the wrong room at the wrong time would probably end with a quite a few bad decisions being made.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yeah and I only let it slide with Alistair because he was young. Blackwall too old to be that naive.

 

Someone clearly hasn't heard his hostile conversation. (And you only need -30 approval to get it which is pretty much 1 greatly disapproves and one more disapproves). That's...exactly what he does.

 

Amusingly enough he's less reasonable about that then Sera is who will keep working with a Inquisitor she doesn't agree with.

Here is the scene: 

 

 

All it does is giving you an image that you're too immature to judge him properly. Letting emotions cloud judgement is one of the worst things a leader can do.

 

For someone who claims that he stands for justice, you really have a strange idea of the concept.

I am judging him properly. There are no emotions clouding my judgement. He is still being punished for his crimes by not getting away with it. He just serves his sentence on the field rather than in a jail cell. How is that different than him being conscripted into the Wardens? 

[AshLilly]

My first play through I chose to let him atone and stay his lover. I just couldn't let the beard go.

 

Second play through I romanced Solas, so I went from hairy man to bald man, and I'm OK with letting the beard go, because OMG, the "feels".

 

... Anyways, after the ending when you can talk to everyone in Skyhold, he says he'll stay until the Warden summon him. Um. The Wardens are in a bit of a "We're not talking to anyone" type of pickle here. So says the prologue. I'm guessing he'll be waiting for a while on that summon. 

 

In each play through, I thought he had redeemed himself fairly well. Everyone in the party has a flaw. Blackwall made a lot of people uneasy with his revelation, but there's a flaw with everyone in the party and at least one other member, so it's not like anyone in the Inquisition was a perfect member that everyone loved. Not even the Inquisitor. Mage? - Automatically hated by some. Elf? - Yep. Quanari? - ... you get the point. 

[Ryzaki]

Yeah I don't get the "he's a criminal!" thing.

 

Now being annoyed he lied to you? I get it. That's personal.

 

But in what BioWare game have we ever had a cast that was criminal free? I can't think of a one. =/

[Milan92]

 

I am judging him properly. There are no emotions clouding my judgement. He is still being punished for his crimes by not getting away with it. He just serves his sentence on the field rather than in a jail cell. How is that different than him being conscripted into the Wardens? 

 

The only reason you conscripted him is because it made you feel good. Since he doesn't like it, you take pleasure in his suffering. You don't give a **** wether he actually does something good. All you care about is seeing him suffer for eternity.

 

And that disgusts me. 

[Ryzaki]

The only reason you conscripted him is because it made you feel good. Since he doesn't like it, you take pleasure in his suffering. You don't give a **** wether he actually does something good. All you care about is seeing him suffer for eternity.

 

And that disgusts me. 

 

Are you disgusted by me trolling him by exiling him with the wardens? (Seriously you have to admit that's funny as hell).

 

I thought we were friends!

 

_{I am not being serious obv}

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The only reason you conscripted him is because it made you feel good. Since he doesn't like it, you take pleasure in his suffering. You don't give a **** wether he actually does something good. All you care about is seeing him suffer for eternity.

 

And that disgusts me. 

No, the only reason I conscripted him was because it was the only one that seemed like a punishment. I didn't like any of the options we were given to judge him and have stated this a few times. So since I don't like any of the options, I went with the one I think makes the most logical sense. 

[RobRam10]

Rainier is is a... FREE MAN absolved of his crimes and you can't stop me.

[Milan92]

No, the only reason I conscripted him was because it was the only one that seemed like a punishment. I didn't like any of the options we were given to judge him and have stated this a few times. So since I don't like any of the options, I went with the one I think makes the most logical sense. 

 

Right, sending people to the Grey Wardens is definitely not a punnishement. Must be the reason why they send all the criminals there.

 

So enlighten me then. What good is Blackwall gonna do after you consrcipted him? Are you gonna take him with you everytime on missions?

 

Don't tell me he is gonna do alot of good by beign your benchwarmer.

[AtreiyaN7]

@hanako: Honestly, there's absolutely no point in ever really discussing things with you, and frankly, I'm pretty tired of the endless back-and-forth after having been rather studiously polite in the Blackwall thread for approximately forever, but even my patience has its limits. Man, I would really hate to have you be some sort of moral arbiter who judges everyone for their assorted sins. I doubt it'd go well for anyone if that were the case, because even the scales of Anubis are probably less strict than you are when it comes to weighing a man's heart.

 

You seem to have some sort of deeply pathological hatred for the character, and you clearly can't/don't want to accept that other people have equally valid viewpoints about him, what he did in the past, and who he is in the present - including those people who see that the situation is not that simple. I've said before that I would free him to atone as himself, and you darned well know my extended explanations from the Blackwall thread, but you're reducing it down to something simplistic yet again.

 

Rainier is not getting of scot-free either when I free him to atone as himself; he's making up for what he did with everything that he does from that point forward as himself, without hiding behind someone else's identity. He either stands on his own and performs his service for the Inquisition as his own man, or he falls - but since I have every confidence that he's really changed, I expect him to successfully atone over time. As for not throwing him to the Wardens (which I feel is a valid judgment if you choose that route):

 

1) I think it's better for him to be his own man as opposed to using the romanticized Warden hero thing as a crutch (which I have stated before), especially since joining the Wardens really IS a get-out-of-jail free card in the sense that you no longer are held responsible for your past crimes and have your slate wiped completely clean.

2) There's no guarantee that he would survive the Joining - and this certainly played into my decision because of the romance.

 

As for what I did with other people...rather than offing the Mayor of Crestwood, I gave him to the Wardens. And how many people did HE drown? That includes uninfected people who might have been trapped with their loved ones. Rather than killing Mistress Poulin, I ordered her to rebuild the town of Sahrnia. How many deaths was she responsible for when the red templars kept dragging people off? I even allowed Alexius to live and made use of him as a researcher - despite his direct attempt to kill my Inquisitor - because of what Dorian told me about his past. Alexius used to be a good man, and he truly loved his son - but I expect that you would probably just execute him or let him rot in jail or whatever it is that you would do because you don't care one bit about extentuating circumstances like that.

 

I don't care if you want to keep ignoring reality and pushing your viewpoint that everything and every decision in life is somehow simple and easy - go right ahead, but I'm pretty much going to ignore your posts for the most part from now on because it's kind of like trying to talk to a brick wall (pun intended). Congrats, you made the one person in the Blackwall thread who was probably most tolerant of you decide that it's just no longer worth the effort to have a discussion with you about much of anything!