Aller au contenu

Photo

Is Josephine a 'full' romance?


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
249 réponses à ce sujet

#151
Han Shot First

Han Shot First
  • Members
  • 21 142 messages

Merril was bisexual and not demi-sexual.

 

Josephine Is as asexual as Merril is demi-sexual.

Yes, Josephine Is a full romance.

 

I'm not sure why people are making an issue of this.

 

Obviously her romance arc is a lot more tame than say Cassandra's, but just because something isn't shown on screen doesn't mean it didn't happen. Movies are a good example. There are tons of movies where the lead characters are in relationships with other characters, while there is no sex scene. Yet those characters aren't supposed to be celibate or asexual. You're only seeing snippets of these characters lives and not viewing it in its entirety. 



#152
Kappa Neko

Kappa Neko
  • Members
  • 2 328 messages

What exactly was the issue with companions being "player-sexual," again?

I don't really have an argument for it, I was just wondering what the argument against it is.

Homophobia.


  • Risien aime ceci

#153
Han Shot First

Han Shot First
  • Members
  • 21 142 messages

Homophobia.

 

Um, nope. 

 

Maybe that was the case with some people, but its both inaccurate and unfair to paint everyone who was opposed to that approach with the same brush. I'm not a fan of it not because of homophobia, but because the approach where characters have defined sexualities that the player can't change more closey mirrors the real world. DA:I's cast of characters felt more real than DA2's.


  • Sith Grey Warden, JCAP et Abaddon_86 aiment ceci

#154
Muspade

Muspade
  • Members
  • 1 280 messages

I'm not sure why people are making an issue of this.

i'm not sure either.



#155
MasterPrudent

MasterPrudent
  • Members
  • 177 messages

Um, nope. 

 

Maybe that was the case with some people, but its both inaccurate and unfair to paint everyone who was opposed to that approach with the same brush. I'm not a fan of it not because of homophobia, but because the approach where characters have defined sexualities that the player can't change more closey mirrors the real world. DA:I's cast of characters felt more real than DA2's.

Indeed. For a number of players the concern was that making every character bisexual served to erase gay characters and precluded stories like Dorian's.


  • Han Shot First aime ceci

#156
Maverick827

Maverick827
  • Members
  • 3 193 messages


Indeed. For a number of players the concern was that making every character bisexual served to erase gay characters and precluded stories like Dorian's.

 

I haven't played with Dorian in my group yet, but I am playing with Sera, and I haven't seen a single piece of dialog or anything, really, to indicate that she's gay.

 

I have done Dorian's quest, which obviously wouldn't work with the "player-sexual" idea, but what would change if the game only offered that quest after the male player began a romance with him?  Is his sexual orientation intrinsic to his character?  I always assumed that would be more insulting than the opposite; that your sexual orientation does make you different in some way would be more offensive than it not "mattering" to who you are.  Especially in a world where it is largely accepted and the hardships one might face for being homosexual seem rare (e.g. our hardships can definitely mold who we are, but if there are no hardships...).

 

What would the repercussions be if the player could choose a sexual orientation at character creation, and then the game tailored itself to that orientation?  You could leave it in a "default" state should the player not want to make the choice.  

 

Imagine Inquisition as it is now, with the "default" state being that Dorian and Sara are gay, Cassandra and Cullen are straight, etc., but the player gets to choose their sexual orientation.  If they choose gay, then Cassandra and Cullen become romanceable by the same sex, and if they choose straight, then Dorian and Sera become romanceable by the opposite sex.  The respective quests/content would be disabled/altered in some way.  Essentially, the idea would be to make the player as much of the "Dungeon Master" as possible, with the ability to tailor the game the way they see fit.  

 

I mean, as someone else pointed out earlier, Cassandra is, essentially, the "story romance," like Liara was.  She gets more attention than anyone else, because it just makes more sense.  She's there from the beginning.  She's a companion.  She's part of your war council.  If there was a default story, if this was a movie or a novel, she would be the love interest because it just fits more.  So it's kind of unfair, then, that homosexuals can't have that narrative synergy.  Again, the ability to be the "Dungeon Master" could be valuable.  I think we all know that if mods existed for this game, some of the first and some of the most popular would be the "Cullen Is Gay" and the "Sera Is Straight" mods.

 

Would being able to choose your sexual orientation at character creation be offensive in some way?  I'm honestly blind to these things.  Or is it, at least right now, just too much work to make the game be so malleable in this way?



#157
adam_nox

adam_nox
  • Members
  • 308 messages

pure gay/straight/bi orientations are obsolete anyways.  It's just a mental shortcut.  Things don't work that way in real life, especially for females.   Let's not bring what we think realism is into the discussion.  The important thing is catering to all audiences fairly, which has clearly not been done here. 



#158
yusupov

yusupov
  • Members
  • 14 messages

pure gay/straight/bi orientations are obsolete anyways.  It's just a mental shortcut.  Things don't work that way in real life, especially for females.   Let's not bring what we think realism is into the discussion.  The important thing is catering to all audiences fairly, which has clearly not been done here. 

 

no, theyre not. im straight & have always been straight. i was sexually attracted to females before i knew about sex or attraction. i have an uncle whos gay & has always been gay. if its "grey" for YOU, thats YOU. a lot of ppl really just are what they are. 



#159
Kappa Neko

Kappa Neko
  • Members
  • 2 328 messages

Um, nope. 

 

Maybe that was the case with some people, but its both inaccurate and unfair to paint everyone who was opposed to that approach with the same brush. I'm not a fan of it not because of homophobia, but because the approach where characters have defined sexualities that the player can't change more closey mirrors the real world. DA:I's cast of characters felt more real than DA2's.

Fair enough. I assumed it because I've seen a LOT of people complain online about being hit on by same sex characters and that annoyed them. Hence the passive companions now. So that nobody has to deal with characters they don't want to hitting on them...

 

I agree that every character being bisexual was ridiculous and unrealistic. Then again it's only a game and you could roleplay them any way you want. I didn't have an issue with it. I'm just not convinced that's the sole reason they ditched the bisexual solution.

 

I do hope they keep up fixed sexuality for the companions. Makes things more interesting, forces me to replay a certain way. So next time I'll have to play a guy to get Dorian. Not a bad thing at all. However, I feel like sexuality should NOT define the characters. I have a gay colleague who hates Dorian for being so stereotypically over the top gay. He screams gay the second you meet him. Is that really necessary? I mean, I love Dorian's playful smugness, but my colleague does have a point. I had no idea my colleague was gay until we talked about DAI. He wishes there were more gay characters who behave in a "normal" way. I agree.



#160
Kappa Neko

Kappa Neko
  • Members
  • 2 328 messages

I mean, as someone else pointed out earlier, Cassandra is, essentially, the "story romance," like Liara was.  She gets more attention than anyone else, because it just makes more sense.  She's there from the beginning.  She's a companion.  She's part of your war council.  If there was a default story, if this was a movie or a novel, she would be the love interest because it just fits more.  So it's kind of unfair, then, that homosexuals can't have that narrative synergy.  Again, the ability to be the "Dungeon Master" could be valuable.  I think we all know that if mods existed for this game, some of the first and some of the most popular would be the "Cullen Is Gay" and the "Sera Is Straight" mods.

 

Would being able to choose your sexual orientation at character creation be offensive in some way?  I'm honestly blind to these things.  Or is it, at least right now, just too much work to make the game be so malleable in this way?

This is a good point. Bioware cleverly avoided this problem with Liara being romanceable by either sex. This even reinforces the idea that you were supposed to pick her. I gave the trilogy to a friend only a few weeks ago and told him to choose Liara because that romance is the best. When he was done, he thanked me for this advice and agreed that playing the story with her as a love interest makes the game infinitely more enjoyable and emotionally engaging. The entire game is written for her romance. It's very very noticeable. If you never play the games with a Liara romance, you're missing the best part and you might not even realize it.

 

There are quite a number of people who did not appreciate Bioware forcing a romance on them. Because the player should be allowed to get the same level of emotional gratification from any of the romances. While I do think that's a valid argument, the problem is that not all characters can be equally important to the story. And if a game wants to be as engaging as a movie or a novel, there HAS to be an intended romance. The reason Mass Effect worked so well for me is because they wrote this epic Liara love story. It's so touching that even the friendship was better in ME3 than my romance with Kaidan. Sure, as a Kaidan fangirl this was disappointing. But it's understandable. The more options they give you, the less connected to the plot they will be.

 

The question is what kind of experience people prefer. Do they want an epic unique love story that connects beautifully with the main plot? Or do they want the game to allow them to roleplay a highly personalized romance that comes at the expense of depth? Both are valid.

 

I'm the kind of player who just wants the best story. But at the same time I do appreciate the choice to pick other romances. Bioware kind of tries to offer both. You CAN play the story romance, but then you need to be okay with that love interest and perhaps even undergo a sex change... it certainly is unfair to everyone who does not like the love interest Bioware picked for the game. Because you DO miss out on a lot if you don't do "their" romance. Lucky for me, I loved Liara and I like Cassandra a lot too. However, because they are both women I didn't pick them on my first playthrough.

 

Choosing your sexual orientation in the character creator is an interesting idea. It's probably impossibly complicated to program, but it would allow the player to have more control over their experience. I would support it. Still doesn't fix the problem of the intended story romance. Unless somebody gave them ten times the budget to incorporate a male and female version for the main romance. Otherwise I'll still have to make my characters lesbian for all the Liaras and Cassandras of Bioware *g*


  • Gold Dragon aime ceci

#161
Ekliane

Ekliane
  • Members
  • 207 messages

You'd think she'd get down and dirtu; isn't she French (Orlesian)? Or is she Antivan? Joséphine is definitely a french name.

 

Je vois pas que ce que ça change, mais OK.



#162
Vanth

Vanth
  • Members
  • 491 messages
The Josephine romance annoyed me. I allegedly "flirted" with her (heart choices) but never got passed anything I would say to a non-romantic friend in RL (just compliments). Then suddenly I am having a "conversation" with her about "us". Then to call it off I had to give her some lame ass "are we still friends" bullshit. I wanted to put her in her place hard but there was no option to do that.

I have reloaded a save games from before that conversation and am now avoiding talking to her at all.

#163
Risien

Risien
  • Members
  • 51 messages

pure gay/straight/bi orientations are obsolete anyways.  It's just a mental shortcut.  Things don't work that way in real life, especially for females.   Let's not bring what we think realism is into the discussion.  The important thing is catering to all audiences fairly, which has clearly not been done here. 

I think lots of people, especially women since you singled us out, will disagree with you.  I'm straight.

 

 

I have a gay colleague who hates Dorian for being so stereotypically over the top gay. He screams gay the second you meet him. Is that really necessary? I mean, I love Dorian's playful smugness, but my colleague does have a point. I had no idea my colleague was gay until we talked about DAI. He wishes there were more gay characters who behave in a "normal" way. I agree.

 

Your friend actually deserves a smack or two for internalized homophobia.  He's saying it's only ok to be gay if you act like you're straight.  Dorian is fine the way he is.  


  • pdusen et New Kid aiment ceci

#164
New Kid

New Kid
  • Members
  • 950 messages

The Josephine romance annoyed me. I allegedly "flirted" with her (heart choices) but never got passed anything I would say to a non-romantic friend in RL (just compliments). Then suddenly I am having a "conversation" with her about "us". Then to call it off I had to give her some lame ass "are we still friends" bullshit. I wanted to put her in her place hard but there was no option to do that.

I have reloaded a save games from before that conversation and am now avoiding talking to her at all.

Relaaaaax, friend.



#165
Kappa Neko

Kappa Neko
  • Members
  • 2 328 messages
Your friend actually deserves a smack or two for internalized homophobia.  He's saying it's only ok to be gay if you act like you're straight.  Dorian is fine the way he is.  

How can he be homophobic when he's gay himself?? He simply complained about that gay characters in games or TV shows are always portrayed gay in a stereotypical way. You know, the ones who talk gay, walk gay and dress gay. I'm pretty sure homosexual men are not all this way. Just because they don't feel like they need to show off their sexuality, doesn't mean they feel ashamed of it. Maybe they just don't act like that because that's not their personality? Everybody is different. It's perfectly fine to have a character like Dorian. But if his type is the only one you ever see as characters, I can understand the annoyance.



#166
Risien

Risien
  • Members
  • 51 messages

How can he be homophobic when he's gay himself?? He simply complained about that gay characters in games or TV shows are always portrayed gay in a stereotypical way. You know, the ones who talk gay, walk gay and dress gay. I'm pretty sure homosexual men are not all this way. Just because they don't feel like they need to show off their sexuality, doesn't mean they feel ashamed of it. Maybe they just don't act like that because that's not their personality? Everybody is different. It's perfectly fine to have a character like Dorian. But if his type is the only one you ever see as characters, I can understand the annoyance.

That's why it's called internalized homophobia. Look it up.

 

Your point about Dorian being the only kind of gay man you ever see would be a great point if this were 1985.  But it's not. It's 2014, and the spectrum of gay men in the media ranges all the way from RuPaul to Captain Jack Harkness.  We've gone far past the days when gay men were only portrayed as caricatures. And since we're past those days, honest portrayals of gay men should include campier ones lie Dorian. We all know men like Dorian in real life, so why should they be shut out of representation because of some gay men's irrational fears of feminine qualities?

 

Portraying all gay men as straight-acting is just as unrealistic and offensive as portraying them all as effeminate.



#167
Maverick827

Maverick827
  • Members
  • 3 193 messages
You agree that portraying all homosexual men as effeminate is offensive, which is exactly what his friend is saying. The difference is you feel that there are an equal number of non-effeminate portrayals in the media, whereas his friend doesn't feel there is.

That just seems like a disagreement, or a lack of pop culture knowledge at the worst (I had to look up "Jack Harkness"), not any sort of homophobia.

#168
Vanth

Vanth
  • Members
  • 491 messages

Jack Harkness is incredibly camp, so not a very good example. (And anyway, one can dislike camp behaviour without being homophobic.)



#169
Risien

Risien
  • Members
  • 51 messages

Jack Harkness is incredibly camp, so not a very good example. (And anyway, one can dislike camp behaviour without being homophobic.)

Alright, pick Carter from Spin City, or Julien from The Shield, Omar from The Wire. The examples of masculine gay men in fiction are endless.

 

And I completely disagree with your second point, since the source always seems to be an aversion to men acting effeminately, which has its roots in both misogyny and homophobia.



#170
Maverick827

Maverick827
  • Members
  • 3 193 messages

Alright, pick Carter from Spin City, or Julien from The Shield, Omar from The Wire. The examples of masculine gay men in fiction are endless.

And I completely disagree with your second point, since the source always seems to be an aversion to men acting effeminately, which has its roots in both misogyny and homophobia.

Again I disagree. I haven't heard of any of those characters, either. I believe it's perfectly likely that this person feels the same way as you, that a majority portrayal in either direction is wrong, but just doesn't know of many of the more masculine gay characters in media today to see the balance. In another world, perhaps he would only be familiar with the examples you give, and find offense in the opposite.

I think it's really premature to just say that his friend is homophopic and misogynistic.

#171
AresKeith

AresKeith
  • Members
  • 34 128 messages

Merril was bisexual and not demi-sexual.

 

Josephine Is as asexual as Merril is demi-sexual.

Yes, Josephine Is a full romance.

 

Well Merrill would be demi-bisexual


  • Hanako Ikezawa aime ceci

#172
Risien

Risien
  • Members
  • 51 messages

I think it's really premature to just say that his friend is homophopic and misogynistic.

Go on then.  Explain why someone might be averse to portrayals of effeminate gay men.  In great detail, please.  Same question to Vanth.



#173
Kittn

Kittn
  • Members
  • 293 messages

Personally I'd be in favor of player-sexuality. Until I saw the arguments about Anders, I honestly figured that's exactly what he was and I thought it was brilliant. I understand that the dev time to make player-tailored LIs might be a nightmare with all the dialogue checks, but I guess I just don't see why any player would take issue with a romance option being whatever your playthrough needs them to be. Besides, it might just avoid arguments like the one this topic has derailed into.

 

Shouldn't we be past people and especially video game characters defining themselves or being defined primarily by their sexualities anyway?



#174
Maverick827

Maverick827
  • Members
  • 3 193 messages


Go on then.  Explain why someone might be averse to portrayals of effeminate gay men.  In great detail, please.  Same question to Vanth.

 

This friend in question dislikes that gay men are "always portrayed in a stereotypical way."  No where did anyone say anything about being averse to portrayals of effeminate gay men.

 

You, yourself, said:

 

Portraying all gay men as straight-acting is just as unrealistic and offensive as portraying them all as effeminate.

 

Just because this person is not as well versed as you are with "non-stereotypical" portrayals of gay men doesn't mean that he is any more homophobic than you are.



#175
dantares83

dantares83
  • Members
  • 1 140 messages

Sex =/= full romance.

 

Not every game should play like the Witcher series.

 

If people are playing games just for the sex scenes, please go watch Game of Thrones. Plenty of sex scene (with or without romance there).


  • Lord Bolton aime ceci