516 réponses à ce sujet

[Rawgrim]

Yeah.

 

For instance, on my last (and only...) playthrough as a mage I felt rather gimped by this restriction. There are mobs that have two magic resistances (e.g. dragons, some demons). Which means that I need at least three elements on my bar. It's also useful to have 2 combo primers, and at least one aoe. Combined with the shield thingy and your focus ability you are now securely beyond the 8 slots.

 

Yes, you can sit down and re-assign your skills before every major fight. But you shouldn't have to.

 

Reducing the slots is NOT a challenge. It's a nuisance. And it takes away from the feeling of accomplishment of having a character that can handle whatever the game throws at her, because even though she could, the game interface simply does not allow you to.

 

Correct. It is like removing a button from someone's controller and claiming it will make the game harder and more challenging.

[Bioware-Critic]

I doubt it was an immediate problem since you'd have to be like 10th level before this could possibly become an issue and that would take a likely very badly done character build. Once more because the master race has issues getting this point: not consoles (we had access to all spells and skills in the first 2), not MP (ME# proved that MP skills and SP skills don't have to be the same). Design decisions to balance the game or create challenge or something but not a limit imposed by something other than what the designers wanted to do.

 

Greetings Sydney!
 

 

I believe you are confusing something very important here. Something that should be blatantly obvious to you!

DA:O had a system that relied on the number of spells it had and the permanent access to them quite heavily. If you do not have a skill or spell for every situation at hand on you that suits and completes your fighting style - you are done. But more importantly: It is very, very boring to play a DA title without the access to the "few" skills and spells we get in DA:I !!! To minimize the range of skills even further by slot-limitations or the removal of the radial-menu-access to the skills, is like saying: "Hey if you don’t like having to take two pair of shoes with you in your suitcase for your vacation - try taking only one shoe from each pair." That is pure nonsense! In the case of a supposedly tactical RPG like DA:I to restrict the number of skills and to take away the ability of being able to access them freely, pretty much obliterates any kind of freedom you could ever have in that system from the "get-go"! DA:I’s combat system is a prison compared to D&D …

If you must compare it to D&D which is a joke in itself - do it the right way, by pointing out how much more freedom you have in D&D. In the D&D system you have a number of skills that grows and grows and grows … The ability to memorize them - like Rawgrim pointed out - is tied to the "GROWING" attribute points. Not only that you have very different skills in D&D and abilities and spells that give you totally different options than DA:I does ... you have a different type of game, a different style of fighting, a different kind of rule-set for everything in that game. Everything is connected in D&D, everything ties together and everything has it’s place and it’s role. The world of D&D and the lore of D&D work in conjunction. And this clockwork of rules is also more complex than the rules ans systems in DA. The abilities and spells in D&D have more than one purpose and give you multiple options at once …

You can under no circumstances - on any level - compare these two game-universes directly, for many reasons.

And you should listen more carefully to what the other posters said to you about this - seriously!

And to defend the new restriction in DA:I by sugarcoating them as "balancing" or "challenging" is an idea that really is out of place in a DA title!


Take care, Sydney!



P.S.: Yes, I could have gone more into details about it all, but the "gist" of what I am saying here can be found between the lines - if one has played the games in question! So read with care and try to understand rather than to browse over the lines … If at all need be.

[Evaderik]

Developers, remove 8 slots and add old-schcool DA:0 direction. Please!

[Poisd2Strike]

People who argue that the 8 slot limitation is primarily due to console support are ignoring the fact that consoles can support more than 8 mappable / assignable abilities.  If there is an 8 slot limitation, due to console support, it is a secondary reason at best.  The primary cause would be Multiplayer support.  DAI is the first Dragon Age game to include Multiplayer.  Bioware's logic was probably that anything that causes a pause in MP combat is unacceptable.  Further, Bioware wanted SP and MP combat to "feel" the same.  Therefore, anything that causes a pause in SP combat is also unacceptable.  Allowing for more than 8 mappable / assignable abilities (on consoles anyway) would likely require the use of a radial menu or some form of UI that would inevitably require a pause in combat.  This pause in combat would happen in both SP and MP.  Therefore, allowing for more than 8 mappable / assignable abilities became unacceptable.  We will likely be stuck with 8 slots, unless Bioware can devise a way to support more than 8 slots that does not result in a pause in combat.  While I certainly understand this logic, I disagree with the 8 slot limitation and personally wish Bioware had chosen not to include MP in DAI.  Unlike (initial) ME3 MP, DAI MP has no direct impact on the outcome of DA SP.

[gay_wardens]

dont get me wrong, i love the multiplayer, but the copy paste into story mode is just graceless and boring

 

Why don't you make a multiplayer spin-off if the game is selling so well, BioWare? Appeal to both of the crowds of DA fans, make twice as much money. Simple.

 

Or do like Resident Evil and give us co-op story mode?

[Bioware-Critic]

People who argue that the 8 slot limitation is primarily due to console support are ignoring the fact that consoles can support more than 8 mappable / assignable abilities. If there is an 8 slot limitation, due to console support, it is a secondary reason at best. The primary cause would be Multiplayer support. DAI is the first Dragon Age game to include Multiplayer. Bioware's logic was probably that anything that causes a pause in MP combat is unacceptable. Further, Bioware wanted SP and MP combat to "feel" the same. Therefore, anything that causes a pause in SP combat is also unacceptable. Allowing for more than 8 mappable / assignable abilities (on consoles anyway) would likely require the use of a radial menu or some form of UI that would inevitably require a pause in combat. This pause in combat would happen in both SP and MP. Therefore, allowing for more than 8 mappable / assignable abilities became unacceptable. We will likely be stuck with 8 slots, unless Bioware can devise a way to support more than 8 slots that does not result in a pause in combat. While I certainly understand this logic, I disagree with the 8 slot limitation and personally wish Bioware had chosen not to include MP in DAI. Unlike (initial) ME3 MP, DAI MP has no direct impact on the outcome of DA SP.

It is just a completely sick and twisted design-choice to make! It "rubs" EVERYONE the wrong way!

[Winged Silver]

It's certainly a...new tactic(?) Bioware seems to be going for. I don't know if I can say I disliked it, given that even in DAO I had a tendency to make more use out of everything in the first ten slots anyway, but I can understand how limiting it can be when you don't have access to everything you've spent points on.

 

I have to say I have mixed feelings on the skill trees as well. While I can appreciate the story ideas behind them (to get that one 'awesome' move, you have to master things before it, which sort of makes sense), I kind of miss how in Origins I could have a line from Primal, a line from Spirit, and a line from Creation and mix and match healing and offence. I think it's still possible to do that with Inquisition (to an extent) but it does sometimes feel like you have to commit more or less to one skill tree to get the most bang for your buck. But I'm no tactician. Just the observations of the here-for-the-story/characters gamer ^.^

[Uccio]

...You mean to tell me people use more than four abilities?
All about that War Cry, Charging Bull, Shield Wall and Shield Bash. Ain't no breaks on the knockdown train.
 
...but seriously folks, this is why you have three party members who play different roles in the group rather than have one person who is capable of EEEEEEEEVERYTHING. (whether or not the AI supports you is a whole new matter in and of itself.)

Like playing a warrior with one arm and leg, a challenge for sure. But is it fun?

[Mithhuanion]

32 powerslots isn't only enough, it keeps the speed of the game up.

 

I loved both Dragon Age Origins and 2, for the stories and lore and gameplay, but honestly freezing up every 3 seconds to coordonate your team was a big downside. Battles with 5 minutes of actual fighting took at least twice as long, and if you didn't coordinate your teammembers would just do whatever and f*&k everything up. Or you could take the time (hours totally) to set up all the game-behaviors for all party-members, and check back to that on every other level-up.

 

Actually going for a limited number of powerslots worked out to be a MAJOR improvement with much easier-to-set-up behaviors, allowing for flowing combat with mimimal need to pause on easy, normal and hard difficulty. Playing nightmare I don't mind freezing up to coordinate cuz otherwize it would be too easy... and to be honest it's not that hard to begin with.

[JaegerBane]

Actually going for a limited number of powerslots worked out to be a MAJOR improvement with much easier-to-set-up behaviors, allowing for flowing combat with mimimal need to pause on easy, normal and hard difficulty. Playing nightmare I don't mind freezing up to coordinate cuz otherwize it would be too easy... and to be honest it's not that hard to begin with.

This is exactly what people mean when they say consoles are to blame. They don't literally mean the console controller cannot allow more than 8 powers as, plainly, it can, as it did back in the first two games. They *mean* that the console controller cannot support quick access to that many powers and hence, to keep the game fluid, the limit was brought in - at least, that's the theory.

A lot of the PC gamers are annoyed with this because, frankly, a keyboard can support a lot more. There's no reason for the limit on PC, I had ~15 spells on my quickbar back in DA2. Currently I have multiple keys on my numbers level that are completely unmapped because the UI can't support it. It's ridiculous.

[Razir-Samus]

32 powerslots isn't only enough, it keeps the speed of the game up.

 

I loved both Dragon Age Origins and 2, for the stories and lore and gameplay, but honestly freezing up every 3 seconds to coordonate your team was a big downside. Battles with 5 minutes of actual fighting took at least twice as long, and if you didn't coordinate your teammembers would just do whatever and f*&k everything up. Or you could take the time (hours totally) to set up all the game-behaviors for all party-members, and check back to that on every other level-up.

 

Actually going for a limited number of powerslots worked out to be a MAJOR improvement with much easier-to-set-up behaviors, allowing for flowing combat with mimimal need to pause on easy, normal and hard difficulty. Playing nightmare I don't mind freezing up to coordinate cuz otherwize it would be too easy... and to be honest it's not that hard to begin with.

can't tell if providing objective opinion or trying to assert something that is relative...

 

each character in DA:I has 8 slots... the characters are not extensions of yourself, but essentially automated players in their own right, so the idea of adding up all the slots and saying "hey, this is how many slots you have at your disposal", whilst not really having them, is quite a bizarre point to make...

 

the fact that you had to use tactical pause every 3 seconds speaks leagues of your ability in both the previous games... this is also an extremely relative statement, as every player has a different skill level (and arguably the skill ceiling for the previous games was high if you were playing on the higher difficulties), and so they could all program the tactics at varying aptitudes

 

i don't understand your point about the AI doing whatever it wanted and screwing everything up when you literally had full control of them in the previous games, and almost none in comparison in DA:I... was this comment made with regards to DA:I? because then it would make sense

 

taking hours (across a playthrough) to tinker with tactics was one of the charms of the previous games, if you didn't like that, fine... but you didn't need to do it, and in your case you suffered because of it

 

in the previous games, "behaviors" referred to what kind of stance each companion would take, such as defensive, ranged, passive... where they would effectively behave differently in combat and have different reactions to situations ontop of what their tactics allowed... and behavior could be changed on the fly by opening the tactics screen and selecting a new "role" from the dropdown menu... so i can't see why you'd think having no control over behavior makes it easier to set up when there is nothing to set up

 

the combat flows because there is still some form of AI behind every teammate, they use their abilities in some obscure order based on a system that lets you select a skill for preferential use, or disable it's use entirely... and then they either defend or follow a single player, which if you actually try to use properly it just won't work, pathing and combat range gets messed up and you find your ranged characters getting their faces melted because they run straight into melee mobs and whack away

 

the systems we have now that dictate teammate behavior are completely dumbed down to the point where they lack any substance that we saw in the previous games... the fact that you think this is better is infuriating, but i won't insult you for it, however much i want to

[Bioware-Critic]

@Mithhuanion

 

I play on console and I don't care if my experience is slower than the KB&M variant of PC-gamers at all!

I desperately want to pause the game and make better thought out combat decisions and take my time to order my whole group to perform several actions. That is what RPG-gaming in the DA-universe is known for - for COL

 

I made a conscious decision when I went with the console-versions instead of the PC-versions and never looked back.

What I do care about is not being able to pause my game, go into the skill selection via the radial-menu and pick whatever the hell I want to!

That kills the RPG-status of ANY RPG all together *Flames grilling the forum*

 

And for people like you to tell me this speeds up the game when there is no evidence for that in any regard is insane - at best

No one is telling others they need to use anything else besides the quickslots on console and no one is telling PC-gamers they need to map more than 8 skills on their QuickSlotBar if they do not want to. But that does not give ANYBODY the right to come up with such maniacal thoughts that this sort of NIGHTMARE is somehow beneficial for ANYONE!

 

It turns a solid tactical RPG into a "Hack&Slash" that's it ...

 

Not funny !!!

[otis0310]

It turns a solid tactical RPG into a "Hack&Slash" that's it ...

 

Not funny !!!

 

THIS is what makes it into a hack and slash game?

 

I thought it was the fact you have to manually move your character to follow the enemy.

Combined with the fact that hits are calculated using collision detection rather than attack rolls and defense rolls.

Added to all of that you have to mash the attack button over and over again.

 

But nope, it was the 8 slot limit, silly me!

[JaegerBane]

each character in DA:I has 8 slots... the characters are not extensions of yourself, but essentially automated players in their own right, so the idea of adding up all the slots and saying "hey, this is how many slots you have at your disposal", whilst not really having them, is quite a bizarre point to make...
 

Tbh I'm surprised there are people out there who buy that BS. It doesn't make any sense - I can't assign my skills to a squadmate's quick bar so what relevance do they have?

Not to mention the idea that 'too many slots' is a load of rubbish in the first place - in a game where you can pause at any time, in a series that has had upwards of 20 slots made available to the player, the idea I'm suddenly going to kernel panic or spontaneously combust because my brain can't handle more than 8 slots would be insulting if it weren't so funny.

[Bioware-Critic]

THIS is what makes it into a hack and slash game?

 

I thought it was the fact you have to manually move your character to follow the enemy.

Combined with the fact that hits are calculated using collision detection rather than attack rolls and defense rolls.

Added to all of that you have to mash the attack button over and over again.

 

But nope, it was the 8 slot limit, silly me!

 

Well if we want to open up that discussion we could all write a book about it 

But I was talking about the topic at hand: "Eight slot limit destroys the entire point of Dragon Age" and I was responding to a posting, so ...

I hope you get me?!

 

 

Take care, otis0310!

 

P.s.: Did you name yourself after the ToEE character, (link >) Otis ?

[Rawgrim]

THIS is what makes it into a hack and slash game?

 

I thought it was the fact you have to manually move your character to follow the enemy.

Combined with the fact that hits are calculated using collision detection rather than attack rolls and defense rolls.

Added to all of that you have to mash the attack button over and over again.

 

But nope, it was the 8 slot limit, silly me!

 

You have to mash the button in this game. No auto attack.

[Sidney]

Greetings Sydney!
 

 

I believe you are confusing something very important here. Something that should be blatantly obvious to you!

DA:O had a system that relied on the number of spells it had and the permanent access to them quite heavily. If you do not have a skill or spell for every situation at hand on you that suits and completes your fighting style - you are done. But more importantly: It is very, very boring to play a DA title without the access to the "few" skills and spells we get in DA:I !!! To minimize the range of skills even further by slot-limitations or the removal of the radial-menu-access to the skills, is like saying: "Hey if you don’t like having to take two pair of shoes with you in your suitcase for your vacation - try taking only one shoe from each pair." That is pure nonsense! In the case of a supposedly tactical RPG like DA:I to restrict the number of skills and to take away the ability of being able to access them freely, pretty much obliterates any kind of freedom you could ever have in that system from the "get-go"! DA:I’s combat system is a prison compared to D&D …

If you must compare it to D&D which is a joke in itself - do it the right way, by pointing out how much more freedom you have in D&D. In the D&D system you have a number of skills that grows and grows and grows … The ability to memorize them - like Rawgrim pointed out - is tied to the "GROWING" attribute points. Not only that you have very different skills in D&D and abilities and spells that give you totally different options than DA:I does ... you have a different type of game, a different style of fighting, a different kind of rule-set for everything in that game. Everything is connected in D&D, everything ties together and everything has it’s place and it’s role. The world of D&D and the lore of D&D work in conjunction. And this clockwork of rules is also more complex than the rules ans systems in DA. The abilities and spells in D&D have more than one purpose and give you multiple options at once …

You can under no circumstances - on any level - compare these two game-universes directly, for many reasons.

And you should listen more carefully to what the other posters said to you about this - seriously!

And to defend the new restriction in DA:I by sugarcoating them as "balancing" or "challenging" is an idea that really is out of place in a DA title!


Take care, Sydney!



P.S.: Yes, I could have gone more into details about it all, but the "gist" of what I am saying here can be found between the lines - if one has played the games in question! So read with care and try to understand rather than to browse over the lines … If at all need be.

 

DAO relied "heavily" on unlimited spell use. It did? I played the game without using spells actually in one playthrough other than boss battles (on hard and yes it can be done the game was that simple). I'm not sure how any underpinning of it was laid on a foundation of "unlimited" since I'd guess 95% of all players ran the same handful of spells into most of the trash mob fights - that was another way I managed to finish the game running the same scripts into every fights. Shockingly, that also worked. Powers were never an essential element of DAO because they were not a required element of DAO. They were as optional to DAO as crafting is to DAI. They make the game easier but they are not needed - but since you and other persist in thinking DAO was "tactical" (seriously, can we stop that it is laughable every time people say that i just cringe) I can see the issue.

 

See the thing I have a different take on tactics - because you usually don't have all the tools you want when you enter combat. I often wanted air support, or armor or heck even a flippin' mortar to help but alas I didn't have access to those things and had to solve my tactical problems with the elements I had on hand. That made life a lot harder but I guess in game terms more challenging and less "button mashy" because frankly a cluster bomb would have been pretty much the instant win button. Tactics are often about working around limits of manpower, equipment or terrain and I have no issue working around cooldowns, level requirements, ability requirements, vancian limits or 8 slots because all of those are a form of limits placed on your ability to use skills/spells and apparently you are ok with 4 of those 5.

 

The AD&D point you make makes no sense. The powers you can use grow. It grows in DAI at level 1 you have fewer skills you can use than at level 5 and fewer there than at 9. The fact that you have slots doesn't change that you can't access 7 of the 8 slots at level 1 because you don't have those skills. This is a totally bizarre interpretation of the world but I see the solution for Bioware - limit the number of slots and add 1 accessible slot per every 3 levels. Then you would have "growing" powers and apparently limits would be ok now -- of course not you'd invent some other objection?

[Rawgrim]

DAO relied "heavily" on unlimited spell use. It did? I played the game without using spells actually in one playthrough other than boss battles (on hard and yes it can be done the game was that simple). I'm not sure how any underpinning of it was laid on a foundation of "unlimited" since I'd guess 95% of all players ran the same handful of spells into most of the trash mob fights - that was another way I managed to finish the game running the same scripts into every fights. Shockingly, that also worked. Powers were never an essential element of DAO because they were not a required element of DAO. They were as optional to DAO as crafting is to DAI. They make the game easier but they are not needed - but since you and other persist in thinking DAO was "tactical" (seriously, can we stop that it is laughable every time people say that i just cringe) I can see the issue.

 

See the thing I have a different take on tactics - because you usually don't have all the tools you want when you enter combat. I often wanted air support, or armor or heck even a flippin' mortar to help but alas I didn't have access to those things and had to solve my tactical problems with the elements I had on hand. That made life a lot harder but I guess in game terms more challenging and less "button mashy" because frankly a cluster bomb would have been pretty much the instant win button. Tactics are often about working around limits of manpower, equipment or terrain and I have no issue working around cooldowns, level requirements, ability requirements, vancian limits or 8 slots because all of those are a form of limits placed on your ability to use skills/spells and apparently you are ok with 4 of those 5.

 

The AD&D point you make makes no sense. The powers you can use grow. It grows in DAI at level 1 you have fewer skills you can use than at level 5 and fewer there than at 9. The fact that you have slots doesn't change that you can't access 7 of the 8 slots at level 1 because you don't have those skills. This is a totally bizarre interpretation of the world but I see the solution for Bioware - limit the number of slots and add 1 accessible slot per every 3 levels. Then you would have "growing" powers and apparently limits would be ok now -- of course not you'd invent some other objection?

 

Please do a playthrough of DA:O where you use no powers at all. On Normal difficulty. Prove your claim.

 

 

AD&D uses an entirely different system, and the gameworlds have lore tied directly to the system. Synergy. DA doesn't have that synergy at all.

[Farangbaa]

Greetings Sydney!
 
 
I believe you are confusing something very important here. Something that should be blatantly obvious to you!

DA:O had a system that relied on the number of spells it had and the permanent access to them quite heavily. If you do not have a skill or spell for every situation at hand on you that suits and completes your fighting style - you are done.

You serious?

You can beat DA:O with less than 8 spells. Hell, you only need 5 of them for 90% of game... and you'd be overdoing it while using just those 5 spells. 2 more spells to use on the Archdemon and you're pretty much done.

Which?

Glyph of Repulsion, Glyph of Paralysis, Spell Might, Tempest, Blizzard
These will get you trough pretty much the entire game.

Walking Bomb, Virulent Walking Bomb.
For the Archdemon

Mana Clash
just for the lulz.

The only difficulty in that is reaching the level required to get access to all those spells. The claim that you needed a ton of spells to be ready for anything is just not true.

We really need to stop acting like DA:O was the pinacle of tactics and strategy, it wasn't, not by a longshot unless, just like DA:I, you severely limited yourself in your options.

[pdusen]

So all along, this game was about amassing a huge quantity of spells? To each their own, but that's news to me. Its certainly not why I played any of these games.

[Razir-Samus]

So all along, this game was about amassing a huge quantity of spells? To each their own, but that's news to me. Its certainly not why I played any of these games.

it's more about the idea of taking a step back from the freedom we had in the previous games... can't believe you're not seeing that yet, along with many others

[Sidney]

Please do a playthrough of DA:O where you use no powers at all. On Normal difficulty. Prove your claim.
 
 
AD&D uses an entirely different system, and the gameworlds have lore tied directly to the system. Synergy. DA doesn't have that synergy at all.

I'm not sure how I prove that claim - it isn't like there is a screen that shows you won the hard way.

You can do it too. Fire the game up, set your allies to two tactics: heal < 10% and attack > target controlled character. Simple and straightforward. Most fights aren't even an issue. Trap laying wolves below level 8 was a problem. Boss fights are a different beast obviously. It takes longer mostly and slighter more health potions overall. I think in sum I had a 10 hour difference between my no powers run and my scripted powers run and the scripted run was basically the same as my full control run so me vs the script wasn't a big change. The mistake you make us thinking that fights are actually dangerous. They aren't. Bioware literally is not trying to kill you in any individual fight. Those fights are ways to accumulate XP so you are ready to fight a boss monster. dAi makes that point rather more transparent with the lack of healing but DAO, KOTOR, BG1/2 you really have to mess up a mob fight to die.

[JaegerBane]

You serious?You can beat DA:O with less than 8 spells. Hell, you only need 5 of them for 90% of game... and you'd be overdoing it while using just those 5 spells. 2 more spells to use on the Archdemon and you're pretty much done.Which?Glyph of Repulsion, Glyph of Paralysis, Spell Might, Tempest, BlizzardThese will get you trough pretty much the entire game.Walking Bomb, Virulent Walking Bomb.For the ArchdemonMana Clashjust for the lulz.The only difficulty in that is reaching the level required to get access to all those spells. The claim that you needed a ton of spells to be ready for anything is just not true.We really need to stop acting like DA:O was the pinacle of tactics and strategy, it wasn't, not by a longshot unless, just like DA:I, you severely limited yourself in your options.

I'm not sure I'd agree that you needed 'tons of spells' to handle DA:O, but what you're saying there is that you needed 8 spells to cheese the game, not play it. That was more of a balance issue than a control issue. Storm of the Century was generally regarded as being the most hilariously overpowered move in the game and while it was fun, it clearly wasn't how the game was supposed to be played. Not to mention, of course, that what you've described there relied on spell combos, a feature that is nowhere near as capable as it was back then.

I'd agree DA:O certainly wasn't some grand pinnacle of tactics, but at the same time, at least it didn't break your progression at the mid game mark, where you literally have to waste skill points taking skills you cannot fit to open up more passives so that new skill points have some use. DA:I has DA2's spell system with ME3's control system hammered onto it, a system that was intended to function with a maximum of 8 available skills on a character. It patently isn't suited to handling the 12+ active skills a normal, bog-standard character on a normal playthrough would rack up before they even hit the later levels.