516 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

Has anyone from Bioware ever come out and give their reasoning for the simplification of behaviors, complete removal of tactics, and the limit of 8 slots?  I know its been asked of them many times, but I don't ever think any of them have answered that question in detail?
 
I pretty sure I know why they did it, but I would like to hear from their own mouth as to the reasoning.  We can all speculate, but it's just that speculation.

Mike Laidlaw did mention it in one of the early streams sometime around the launch. As I recall, the previous system was described as too detailed and complex for the majority of Players, but I would seek confirmation.

[Hexoduen]

I don't like how Dragon Age has been simplified.

 

Almost no options in custom tactics, a locked quickbar with only 8 ability slots, a quest tracker which is impossible to get rid of permanently, constant reminder messages to drink healing potions, pointers on the minimap telling which way to go ... and so on.

 

I'm sorry, but we're nearing the stage of braindead gameplay    I still love Dragon Age, but I hope DA4 won't be as simple as Inquisition.

 

Please give options to turn all these helper-features off, and allow us to customize tactics and quickbar as in Origins

[Sidney]

Has anyone from Bioware ever come out and give their reasoning for the simplification of behaviors, complete removal of tactics, and the limit of 8 slots?  I know its been asked of them many times, but I don't ever think any of them have answered that question in detail?
 
I pretty sure I know why they did it, but I would like to hear from their own mouth as to the reasoning.  We can all speculate, but it's just that speculation.

For tactics I think it boiled down to basically metrics IIRC that showed other than a super tiny percentage no one really used them.

[United Servo Academy Choir]

For tactics I think it boiled down to basically metrics IIRC that showed other than a super tiny percentage no one really used them.

 

Tactics are nice to have, but I'm not convinced they're necessary. I never used them in either of the first two games. And Obsidian certainly doesn't seem to think so, and I don't see anyone questioning them about their bonafides with PoE.

 

Dropping the circle menu and limiting the PC skill bars though - that defies explanation.

[Sidney]

Tactics are nice to have, but I'm not convinced they're necessary. I never used them in either of the first two games. And Obsidian certainly doesn't seem to think so, and I don't see anyone questioning them about their bonafides with PoE.
 
Dropping the circle menu and limiting the PC skill bars though - that defies explanation.

Tactics annoyed me more than the 8 slot thing. I can live with or without the limit. Doesn't bother me.

Tactics OTOH allowed me to play my character and him alone. I enjoyed that in e middle of a chaotic fight I didn't have total control over the fight only the direction. Me and my party it have sat around and talked about what do to when X happens - yes, please kill mages first or hits groups over individuals. DAI still had some remnants of that but there was so little control it was frustrating.

One thing that needs to happen is that there should always be some sort of default attack nearest logic for melee types and some sort of default keep at range logic in ranged types that doesn't require fiddling around with sliders to make happen.

[c0bra951]

This isn't a UI issue or a console issue or anything else. It is a flat out design decision to impose limits and choices on what players can do and even then because of the ability to swap out of combat this isn't nearly as limiting as the ADD "I memorized fire spells and wandered into a fire salamander lair now I need to go find somewhere to sleep to get my ice spells".

I think the mix of the limit on powers and the loss of the if-then tactics wasn't good. The power limit would make running tactics a much easier process so while I am sure tactics were "underutilized" by a massive percentage of the population who played a lot of that was the huge number of options to "code" for.

 

We can't really tell how this was decided,  but in view of the design of the previous games, I find the claim that the decision was strictly gameplay design rather suspect.  More likely, it was decided that the least-common denominator should define the limits of what would be allowed in combat, and that decision was rationalized as a tighter gameplay experience.  Perhaps they even thought that 8 abilities were plenty.  But the moment a new DLC raises the soft level limit by like 5, this logic falls apart.  8 is just shy of enough.  12 would be acceptable.  Even allowing focus abilities only on the selection wheel would alleviate the issue.  As it stands, I routinely throw away 2 of the 3 focus abilities on my Inquisitor (rift, Hakkon shield and class/specialization-specific) because they're so seldom-used.

[Sidney]

We can't really tell how this was decided,  but in view of the design of the previous games, I find the claim that the decision was strictly gameplay design rather suspect.  More likely, it was decided that the least-common denominator should define the limits of what would be allowed in combat, and that decision was rationalized as a tighter gameplay experience.  Perhaps they even thought that 8 abilities were plenty.  But the moment a new DLC raises the soft level limit by like 5, this logic falls apart.  8 is just shy of enough.  12 would be acceptable.  Even allowing focus abilities only on the selection wheel would alleviate the issue.  As it stands, I routinely throw away 2 of the 3 focus abilities on my Inquisitor (rift, Hakkon shield and class/specialization-specific) because they're so seldom-used.

I agree the focus does mess with the system. It feels like the 8 slots were designed with the standard build model and the focus stuff got tacked on and didn't much fit. I really don't like the focus powers anyway so not using them doesn't bother me that much.

I really doubt it was LCD on gameplay. I'm sure they had metrics where they figured out x% don't ever use more than 8 powers -- and truth be told I'd guess x > 90 -- but really even at that there is no major extra cost to allowing access to all powers as opposed to writing a complex tactics engine which does add cost. That is why I think that was a design goal and not a race to the bottom thing.

I don't much care for it as I said. It doesn't really bother me but then again for like 90% of the fights in DAO I likely used less than 8 powers -- but I might have just been so bored I stopped caring about combat.

[Uccio]

For tactics I think it boiled down to basically metrics IIRC that showed other than a super tiny percentage no one really used them.

 

Probably because it worked on it´s own without interference from the players in DAO and DA2. Some wanted to tweak it sure, but most just went along with the presetting since it worked. Now it doesn´t. So the point Bio should have noted was that the system worked, very well actually, and keep it.

[Cmpunker13]

Tactics are nice to have, but I'm not convinced they're necessary. I never used them in either of the first two games. And Obsidian certainly doesn't seem to think so, and I don't see anyone questioning them about their bonafides with PoE.

 

 

If you never used tactics in DA2 you missed the cross class combos, which imo are the best gameplay implementation in the game. Also I question how you used the tank and the healer in DAO.

 

Tactics are a must: you must tell your tank to use War Cry only when the targets are in range; otherwise you see how it happens now: a tank uses War Cry on pull, target is out of range, no one is taunted. What's the use in that?

[N7Revenant]

Well, I think tactics went out of the window because of the limited amount of usable abilities at one time.

"If it is not on quick bar, it does not exist in the combat", hence it was rendered useless.

I did not enjoy putting in every tactic I wanted in the beginning to be honest, but when it was finally there, it worked brilliantly - without me telling each and every party member what to do, and I could just control my main character (with just occasional direct command to others) to an enjoyable combat experience in DAO and DA2.

 

If people bring out that it is not more tactical now.... well it's not - planning ahead yes, but not for every encounter. To faff about picking your skills in the so called tactics menu, against enemy that you see in the distance is not as good as "you have all these abilities in your disposal, but only some will be effective - chose wisely!"

They may have put in things like about not using fire against rage demon, as it makes him stronger, instead of being immune (which obviously would be bad for people with all abilities in fire class mage), but it would force you to think and be careful - but I guess too many people whined about that...

[GithCheater]

If you never used tactics in DA2 you missed the cross class combos, which imo are the best gameplay implementation in the game. Also I question how you used the tank and the healer in DAO.

 

I never used tactics, and I used cross-class combos frequently

[Cmpunker13]

I never used tactics, and I used cross-class combos frequently

 

It means you had to pause the game to switch character. That's ok. However there are some of us that don't want to pause and tactics allowed you to do that (even in DAO, even on nightmare). In DAI I don't pause as it's not necessary, but tactics would have made things smoother since the AI is so stupid.

[Ursulawinn]

Anyone can walk into a fight slam down two AoEs on the party without any danger of roasting allies alive and win.  That's called an easy button.  Toggle splash damage.  Splash on or off, easy.  Everyone wins.

 

Tactics.  Toggle of a sort.  Use them or don't, but put them back and make nightmare (with splash damage) REQUIRE it.  Nightmare in DA:I is an absolute joke.

 

The DAs were never too complex.  For those who did find it to be too complex there was always Candy Crush.  In this game more buttons are better.  Toggle to a Bow, from Daggers...there's one from DA:O that should've stuck all the way through.  I personally prefer an explosion of abilities across hotbars.  Fill half the screen with hotbars.  That's how I played old Bioware games and that current old monster DDO.  Can't see a 1/4 to 1/3 of the screen for hotbars and maps and open bags and it's beautiful. 

 

8 abilities with no tactics because developers think anything more is too complex is kind of insulting.  Especially for a magic user.  I can't even play a mage in DA:I.  It's horrid for that very reason.

 

Honestly, the UI needs to have options kind of like your basic desktop.  There are those who want 1/2 to 1 line of items on their desktop and they start to twitch uncontrollably when more appear.  And there are those who bury their desktop in a wall of icons, they would twitch uncontrollably if things weren't laid out thus.  Both versions should be possible, player's choice.

[Sidney]

It means you had to pause the game to switch character. That's ok. However there are some of us that don't want to pause and tactics allowed you to do that (even in DAO, even on nightmare). In DAI I don't pause as it's not necessary, but tactics would have made things smoother since the AI is so stupid.

The AI isn't stupid. The real problem is that the default settings in tactics are worthless. Once you get the proper grossly non-intuitive settings into the system it actually performs pretty well for 90+% of the fights in the game. Just like in DAO when there were limited tactics slot the AI was good enough for trash mobs not very useful for bosses. If the base settings had been better and the options clearer there would have been a lot fewer problems early on.

[Cmpunker13]

The AI isn't stupid. The real problem is that the default settings in tactics are worthless. Once you get the proper grossly non-intuitive settings into the system it actually performs pretty well for 90+% of the fights in the game. Just like in DAO when there were limited tactics slot the AI was good enough for trash mobs not very useful for bosses. If the base settings had been better and the options clearer there would have been a lot fewer problems early on.

 

Maybe it's not stupid, but it's not working fine. War Cry is always a random execution, while sometimes the tank is able to roll out of a dragon's fireball. Why (sometimes) can it execute Combat roll? The AI is not consistent and tactics would have been helpful.

I agree that in DAO tactics were not so good and some never worked (clustered enemies), but they were sufficient to performs fine for almost all fights. In DAI the AI doesn't perform fine imo, simply the difficulty is not challenging enough to create troubles; the few times when things get troublesome (trebuchet defense in Haven) the dumb AI can cripple your game. And now that I think about it, the "dumb AI" is mostly a tank issue, as other classes can perform in a sufficient way.

[Sidney]

Maybe it's not stupid, but it's not working fine. War Cry is always a random execution, while sometimes the tank is able to roll out of a dragon's fireball. Why (sometimes) can it execute Combat roll? The AI is not consistent and tactics would have been helpful.
I agree that in DAO tactics were not so good and some never worked (clustered enemies), but they were sufficient to performs fine for almost all fights. In DAI the AI doesn't perform fine imo, simply the difficulty is not challenging enough to create troubles; the few times when things get troublesome (trebuchet defense in Haven) the dumb AI can cripple your game. And now that I think about it, the "dumb AI" is mostly a tank issue, as other classes can perform in a sufficient way.

A lot of the inconsistency comes from the preferred/normal/don't use category. Basically with only those 3 options you can't get consistent behavior. Think we may basically be saying the same thing just using different terms (tactics vs AI) where I think the AI executes the tactics it is given properly but the tactics are both inadequate and poor in their default state. I also agree that tanks seem to suffer more from the short comings of the tactics perhaps because those needs are so situational.

I agree that trash mob fights don't expose the tactical limits but neither did DAO's encounters. Something like the trebuchet defense is clearly a "boss" fight and even in DAO or DA2 I would not have trusted to tactics alone to handle those fights. Dragons, revenants, Gaxxkang were never good candidates for tactics (DA2 handled bosses better because of the unlimited slots in fairness).

[BluBlaBlu]

Fact is: People who agree with this system don't know squad.
"8x4=32" wtf is that retarded math? This isn't about the amount of spells you have in the entire party, it's about the amount of spells you have on the character and you can't use because of the lack of space, the only way that the character uses those missing spells is with the poor behavior system, at least if the behavior system were like Origins you could set the missing spells to be used on a tactical way, but now you depend on the game to be smart to use them when necessary.

To be clear: I'm not saying the game's ****, in fact I love it, I'm just not that kind of person on goes all the time making comparisons between games, because if I did it I could go on and on with all the flaws this game has.

The real fact here is Bioware making the game to reach more casual people, that's why the poor behavior system, and few space for spells, the preasigned stats, etc.
Whoever played DA: Origins knows what I'm talking about, It's not about lore or combat system (btw, saying that DA2 had a good combat system it's lame, it was more like a Beat'Em Up game), It's about falling in the need to grab more money and leaving some stuffs unfinished and others made on an easy way for casual players, but well... in EA Games they don't care about that, seems like they are trying to find a middle point between hardcore RPG Baldur's Gate lovers and normal or casual players.
I love the game, but I think how bigger it could have been with more customized options like stats to upgrade, Skyhold with more features or finishing it at least (seriously, it wasn't THAT hard to filling the hole in the hallway to the War Room).
But whatever.