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[Violetbliss]

Agreed.

Horns are love, horns are life.

 

I so liked that phrase, and then I looked up its recent origins.

 

Anyway, did you know Qunari can leap across stretches of water? All you need is your essential hook & tackle, and a helpful wraith:

 

[Qun00]

Horns.

[ruggly]

Just made another one out of boredom, BarBar Adaar

 

[Qun00]

You know... despite the fact that Adaar is only Vashoth, truth is that she was raised by Tal-Vashoth parents and spent years working with others of their kind.

Someone like that is very unlikely to have a neutral opinion regarding the Qun as one might expect from the Vashoth. Certainly not like the one from the codex:

Spoiler

"Why do you keep asking me about the Qun? I'm not Qunari. I met a human once who made shoes. Why don't you tell me about shoe-making?

You've met more Qunari than I have. I've lived my whole life here in Nevarra.

No, I'm not Tal-Vashoth. Tal-Vashoth are rebels. You can't rebel against something you've never seen. I'm Vashoth.

No, I didn't use the same word. It's "Vashoth," not "Tal-Vashoth." Nobody told me humans couldn't hear speech.

No.

No.

I hate humans.

—Unused portion of a transcript from an interview with Issala, a Qunari goat herder, found in the notes of Brother Genitivi"

[Pevesh]

You know... despite the fact that Adaar is only Vashoth, truth is that she was raised by Tal-Vashoth parents and spent years working with others of their kind.

Someone like that is very unlikely to have a neutral opinion regarding the Qun as one might expect from the Vashoth. Certainly not like the one from the codex:

Spoiler

"Why do you keep asking me about the Qun? I'm not Qunari. I met a human once who made shoes. Why don't you tell me about shoe-making?

You've met more Qunari than I have. I've lived my whole life here in Nevarra.

No, I'm not Tal-Vashoth. Tal-Vashoth are rebels. You can't rebel against something you've never seen. I'm Vashoth.

No, I didn't use the same word. It's "Vashoth," not "Tal-Vashoth." Nobody told me humans couldn't hear speech.

No.

No.

I hate humans.

—Unused portion of a transcript from an interview with Issala, a Qunari goat herder, found in the notes of Brother Genitivi"

Interesting topic. I think how much your character dislikes that Qun would depend on how much your parents talked about it with you really, some of them could have been too traumatized or conflicted about it to really bring it up much with your Inquisitor. I think that's why, the writers chose to keep that information very vague so you could headcanon a lot of different relationships with the Qun. It is perfectly reasonable to imagine that your Inquisitor grew up feeling really isolated, among so many humans who mistrusted them (it wouldn't be unusual for your family to rarely meet other Vashoth, after all), and resented their parents for leaving the Qun for lives as outsiders.

 

Personally, the background I imagine for my QunQuisitor is that her parents did raise her with lots of horror stories about the Qun and so she really isn't fond of it. She doesn't necessarily have problems with individual members of the Qun or working with them, which is why she keeps Bull around, but she still hates how some people are treated under the Qun. She even saves the alliance with the Qunari because she is a very diplomatic type (romanced Josephine) and thinks she could help more people that way and maybe even by having an alliance with an Inquisition that works with freed mages, people under the Qun will start questioning why their mages are treated the way they are. Honestly, her feelings about the Qun aren't really at all different than her feelings about the Chantry. She's an atheist who doesn't have problems with people believing whatever they like, but she doesn't like what she sees religious organizations like the Chantry doing. As Inquisitor she, of course, has no choice but to work with them.

 

How do others imagine their Inquisitor's relationship with the Qun?

 

What I still haven't figured out about my Inquisitor's background yet is how in the world exactly my Vashoth mage Inquisitor would have gotten trained outside of both the Qun and the Circle. Best I can come up with so far in some random apostate hermit in the woods...

[Qun00]

By others of their kind I meant your Tal Vashoth buddies from the Valo-Kas company.

[Pevesh]

By others of their kind I meant your Tal Vashoth buddies from the Valo-Kas company.

Ah yeah, true. I wasn't thinking about them. While I think your years as a merc do make it so you'd be inclined to disagree with Iron Bull about the Tal Vashoth being pretty much wild beasts (that line really made me mad), I don't think it would be impossible for a Vashoth Inquisitor to have a more neutral opinion on the Qun. Still that is all subjective, of course.

[Aimi]

How do others imagine their Inquisitor's relationship with the Qun?

I find it impossible to roleplay a qunari Inquisitor who is okay with the Qun. There isn't any room for cis women who fight. There isn't any room for mages. And that's without getting into the collectivism thing, or the "your parents are defectors" thing.

[Cypher0020]

This.

 

Mine is a mage, so there's noooooooooo way she can accept the Qun. Heck, the dialogue points out "' I've met mages that were living with the Qun."

 

Leash  + chains. Nope! The Circles are heaven compared to that life.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

My qunari mage is very anti-qun, she's seen how they treat their mages her worst nightmare is to caught and collared (although based on what we saw in DA2 the qunari would see her as too dangerous and just kill her). She doesn't trust Bull, she only hires him on the condition that Leliana watches him closely. She only really started to like him after his personal quest where she chose to help his crew. I'd probably describe Wren's alignment as chaotic good, I intended her to be chaotic neutral but she ended up being nicer than I was expecting. I think of her as being something of a gentle giant. I like the idea of her not being what you'd expect from her appearance. She has the English accent and mostly uses the charming or funny responses. I assume her parents must have found an apostate to teach her to use magic because it seems unlikely to me that either of them would have been a mage. 

[Qun00]

About mage Adaar:

"When [player name] manifested a gift for magic, his/her parents arranged for a mage among the Tal-Vashoth to teach him/her how to control his/her talents."

[Sarcastic Tasha]

Lol now you say that I realise I had read that. Evidently I didn't assume I'd actually just read it.  

[Pevesh]

This.

 

Mine is a mage, so there's noooooooooo way she can accept the Qun. Heck, the dialogue points out "' I've met mages that were living with the Qun."

 

Leash  + chains. Nope! The Circles are heaven compared to that life.

Mine's a mage too so she also doesn't like the Qun by default, though I don't think she would even if she weren't one. I think it would be very bizarre to play a Qunari mage Inquisitor who isn't against the Qun...I don't know how that would work. Doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

About mage Adaar:

"When [player name] manifested a gift for magic, his/her parents arranged for a mage among the Tal-Vashoth to teach him/her how to control his/her talents."

Thank you! I'd either missed that or forgotten about it.

[Cypher0020]

Also a mage!qunari I believe says "tal vashoth have their own forms of magic" or something along those lines

 

That really got me intrigued, what is qunari magic..... who began to teach the qunari PC about magic? Since they're not apostates by Chantry law, similar to dalish mages, but I'm sure humans give mage qunari PC's a wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide birth

 

Just thinking about the qunari's backgroun, male or female is so sad...... especially the stereotypes against the qunari in general 

[Sifr]

Also a mage!qunari I believe says "tal vashoth have their own forms of magic" or something along those lines

 

That really got me intrigued, what is qunari magic..... who began to teach the qunari PC about magic? Since they're not apostates by Chantry law, similar to dalish mages, but I'm sure humans give mage qunari PC's a wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide birth

 

Just thinking about the qunari's backgroun, male or female is so sad...... especially the stereotypes against the qunari in general 

 

Isn't there a line about being taught by a Saarebas who'd escaped the Qun?

 

Actually, Qunari and Dalish mages are still technically apostates under Chantry law and we know that Templars can and do attack Dalish clans from time to time to try and capture their Keepers? I suspect that any Qunari Mages is forced to either hide their magic or rely on their own community or a mercenary band to give them some kind of protection?

 

It wouldn't surprise me if the Vashoth are like the Dalish and protect their mages, rather than revile them? As a community of outsiders, they would presumably know the value of sticking together, due to the fear that most races have of them, as well as to avoid being accidentally mistaken and hunted down as Tal-Vashoth by any Ben-Hassrath agent?

[Sarcastic Tasha]

It wouldn't surprise me if the Vashoth are like the Dalish and protect their mages, rather than revile them? As a community of outsiders, they would presumably know the value of sticking together, due to the fear that most races have of them, as well as to avoid being accidentally mistaken and hunted down as Tal-Vashoth by any Ben-Hassrath agent?

 

When talking to (or maybe I should say arguing with) Vivienne after siding with the mages the inquisitor can point out that she's lived as a free mage with the Tal Vashoth and Vivienne says something about how even the Tal Vashoth cut out the tongues (or something like that I'm not sure) of mages they think can't control their powers. Seems like they protect their mages but also treat them harshly if they deem it necessary. Maybe Solas wasn't completely out of line when he said most Tal Vashoth were barbarians (or words to that effect).

[Cypher0020]

But how can the Chantry enforce their laws on groups that don't even belong to them?

 

Yes, I know *why* they can,  the plains/graves being examples, but still.....

 

templars just can't go about harrassing groups that don't even believe what they believe, then get shocked when the other side retaliates against them 

[Sifr]

When talking to (or maybe I should say arguing with) Vivienne after siding with the mages the inquisitor can point out that she's lived as a free mage with the Tal Vashoth and Vivienne says something about how even the Tal Vashoth cut out the tongues (or something like that I'm not sure) of mages they think can't control their powers. Seems like they protect their mages but also treat them harshly if they deem it necessary. Maybe Solas wasn't completely out of line when he said most Tal Vashoth were barbarians (or words to that effect).

 

Yeah, but Vivienne says a lot of things.

 

From her point of view, any mage not in the Circle has zero self-control and is barely two steps away from becoming an abomination. She's also got a dim and slightly condescending view of anyone who's not been trained in the "proper" Circle method, treating mages like Solas like backwards hicks and not capable of doing the simplest spells.

 

I tend to take most of her comments with a grain of salt. After all, this is the same woman who doesn't see any hypocrisy in how she thinks the rebels are petty for wanting freedom, when her status as First Enchanter, advisor to the Empress and lover of a Duke, has basically giving her a get-out-of-jail-free card anytime she wants?

 

Biased Vivienne is Biased.

 

 

(As much as I might gripe about her, I do like her character, I just take umbrage with her hypocrisy and condescending manner)

[Sifr]

But how can the Chantry enforce their laws on groups that don't even belong to them?

 

Yes, I know *why* they can,  the plains/graves being examples, but still.....

 

templars just can't go about harrassing groups that don't even believe what they believe, then get shocked when the other side retaliates against them 

 

Very easily, religion being used to enforce rules and punish those who don't follow them is as sadly true in the history of Thedas as it's often been in our own? It's why Thedas has had Exalted Marches and our world had several Crusades, for example? (Although there were also political and economic reasons for both, aside from religion.)

 

After all, if it was as simple as a mage telling Templars that they didn't believe in Andraste and didn't want to go with them into the Circle, would it really stop them from being taken? If it was, everyone would be doing it and Anders wouldn't have needed to escape seven times and join the Wardens?

 

In DA2, if Hawke sent Feynriel to study magic with the Dalish, they are later forced to intervene between some Templars and Dalish who are nearly at each other's throats over the matter, because the Templars aren't happy with the Dalish for harbouring apostates.

[Qun00]

Yeah, but Vivienne says a lot of things.
 
From her point of view, any mage not in the Circle has zero self-control and is barely two steps away from becoming an abomination. She's also got a dim and slightly condescending view of anyone who's not been trained in the "proper" Circle method, treating mages like Solas like backwards hicks and not capable of doing the simplest spells.
 
I tend to take most of her comments with a grain of salt. After all, this is the same woman who doesn't see any hypocrisy in how she thinks the rebels are petty for wanting freedom, when her status as First Enchanter, advisor to the Empress and lover of a Duke, has basically giving her a get-out-of-jail-free card anytime she wants?
 
Biased Vivienne is Biased.
 

 
(As much as I might gripe about her, I do like her character, I just take umbrage with her hypocrisy and condescending manner)

And yet most people like her. Go figure.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

Yeah, but Vivienne says a lot of things.

 

From her point of view, any mage not in the Circle has zero self-control and is barely two steps away from becoming an abomination. She's also got a dim and slightly condescending view of anyone who's not been trained in the "proper" Circle method, treating mages like Solas like backwards hicks and not capable of doing the simplest spells.

 

I tend to take most of her comments with a grain of salt. After all, this is the same woman who doesn't see any hypocrisy in how she thinks the rebels are petty for wanting freedom, when her status as First Enchanter, advisor to the Empress and lover of a Duke, has basically giving her a get-out-of-jail-free card anytime she wants?

 

Biased Vivienne is Biased.

 

 

(As much as I might gripe about her, I do like her character, I just take umbrage with her hypocrisy and condescending manner)

 

True she is biased but when Vivienne makes that comment the inquisitor doesn't tell her she's wrong which made me think it might be true.

 

 

My qunari inquisitor really didn't get along with Vivienne at all but I thought she was fabulous. I love all her scathing remarks. But equally I'm thoroughly enjoying being friends with her as a pro-chantry human inquisitor, she can be really nice when she wants to be.

[Aimi]

It's why Thedas has had Exalted Marches and our world had several Crusades, for example? (Although there were also political and economic reasons for both, aside from religion.)

economic reasons for Crusades? lol

sorry I'll just

yeah

[Sifr]

economic reasons for Crusades? lol

sorry I'll just

yeah

 

Yeah, in the Twelfth Century, the Church knew that a good way of getting a bob or two was through donations from, and selling indulgences to, wealthy patrons who were embarking on one of the latest Crusades, which was an incentive to keep having them, as long as the money coming in offset the massive cost of the military campaigns.

 

The Knight's Templar even made most of their original fortune by establishing the banking system for Crusaders, gaining them a lot of wealth and power, indeed enough so that eventually they became a threat to the Church itself in the end.

 

Plus, invading a country and plundering it for wealth and resources isn't exactly something new, people have been doing it for centuries (for the last hundred years, it's been for oil). For example, Richard the Lionheart conquered and later sold Cyprus to the Templars during the Third Crusade, gaining a ton of wealth for himself and also ensuring a strategic foothold in the Med. Lastly, numerous states rose and fell in the Middle East, as the territories moved back and forth between the various armies.

 

To use the Dragon Age equivalent, such as the Exalted March on the Dales, not only did the Orlesians crush the Dalish and prevent them for ever being a threat again, but by dissolving the Dalish nation, they were free to seize all it's wealth and territories as spoils of war.

 

And while not an Exalted March in the traditional sense, as they don't seize any lands or territories (officially), the reformed Inquisition isn't shy about using the fact that people believe the Inquisitor is the Herald of Andraste (whether true or not) to levy that belief into real political power. This allows them to challenge the Chantry and gain a ton of wealth, prestige and influence across Thedas, all while commanding an army of faithful followers who honestly have come to see their leader as a kind of religious figure.

 

So yeah, religion does play a part, but it's not the only motivation and incentive for a Crusade?

 

(And I fear we've gone vastly off-topic here... erm... Female Qunari's are woof!)

[Qun00]

True she is biased but when Vivienne makes that comment the inquisitor doesn't tell her she's wrong which made me think it might be true.
 
 
My qunari inquisitor really didn't get along with Vivienne at all but I thought she was fabulous. I love all her scathing remarks. But equally I'm thoroughly enjoying being friends with her as a pro-chantry human inquisitor, she can be really nice when she wants to be.

She's tolerable when you agree with her. It's not much of a statement.

[Aimi]

okay so this might be the most crucial part of the entire post and the reason why "economic factors" are not a particularly persuasive argument in this context or most military contexts
 

as long as the money coming in offset the massive cost of the military campaigns.

the key point here is that the money rarely did anything but offset the massive cost, certainly did not pay for the campaigns entirely; Crusades did not break even and they did not turn a profit for the people who started them or did the fighting, not even for the beati possidentes like Ramon IV

the bizarre Schumpeterian plunder-as-profit schematic rarely if ever explains things satisfactorily; I know work on Hellenistic history has fairly comprehensively disproven it there and it's essentially worthless in early modern Europe as well

Crusades were insanely risky ventures that more often than not required rulers to establish entire new fiscal machinery to have a chance at funding the principal for the military campaigns, with the most salient examples being Louis IX and the aforementioned Richard I

to suggest that there was no plunder of any kind would be laughable, of course there was plunder, and of course people like Richard tried to broker whatever deals they could manage but these were in the service of trying to defray costs that had already been incurred, not in the service of actually causing the fighting

anyway the fundamental problem I have here is the suggestion that these 'economic' issues were causative factors

on a macro scale, the expectation of profit was not why churches backed Crusades; in fact, the indulgence issue would seem to militate toward Church authorities opposing Crusades on the grounds that they could farm indulgences for great profit but would never have to actually put that profit toward any purpose unless a Crusade were actually called

a stronger 'economic' argument for Church backing of Crusades wouldn't focus on indulgences but rather noble property remittances; when aristocrats went east they tended to leave their lands in the care of the Church, and the Church usually managed to acquire all or part of the property upon the holder's death if the holder died on the Crusade, but the actual amounts of property involved in these transfers isn't nearly adequate to be a significant causative factor

similarly, the Crusades in the Holy Land were basically never viable fiscal ventures for western European nobles and monarchs; you could make a stronger argument about the Baltic Crusades (where the German Order expected to gain actual territory, although YMMV as to whether it was worth it) or Iberia (where Castile, Aragon, and Portugal expected the same) and of course other conflicts (like the Albigensian Crusade Occitan Wars and the various medieval civil wars that were dignified by the title of 'crusade' because reasons) wouldn't follow the same general path, but those aren't really the ones we're talking about here especially if the emphasis is on causation because none of those would've happened without the Levantine Crusades

this isn't just in terms of direct campaigning cost, mind you, but also opportunity cost; if plunder was the goal, plunder might have been easier to gain at less cost by fighting at home rather than in the ass end of the Mediterranean

a more realistic argument about plunder would center on claims that rulers were not particularly rational actors and wished to gain plunder even though they had little hope of even recouping their costs, but that's a very different argument and it's also very hard for me to take that seriously as an 'economic factor'...maybe a psychological one but imaginary plans to do something that would be a drop in the country's economic bucket doesn't really qualify as 'economic' for me

more cogent thoughts on Crusading are buried in this post from awhile ago
 

(And I fear we've gone vastly off-topic here... erm... Female Qunari's are woof!)

they sure are