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what do you think the black city is


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#51
Yermogi

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I read the elves (In DA: world of Thedas) lost their immortality the more they stayed around the first humans so they retreated into their territory to extend their lives this gave the Tevinster Imperium more land to conquer and drove the elves to infighting which led to their demise and the Tevinter Imperium to clean up the leftovers. Also I'm not sure the fade and the 'real world' were ever not separated by the veil.

They say this, but so much of what the Elves believe is proven to be completely wrong, i.e., Tevinter didn't cause the downfall of the elves, the elves did it mostly to themselves. Now, some of the elves were apparently being helped by Tevinter, but Tevinter didn't start the war and didn't cause the fall of Arlathan. The elves just pushed all the blame them for whatever reason. Probably because it was easier to completely blame a different group than to admit that you were in the wrong to begin with.



#52
Tielis

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Now, I haven't finished the game all the way through. Does Solas actually say he sealed the other gods away? Or, since he doesn't think of them in terms of gods, that he sealed the others like him away?

 

It's in Cole's banter after the last scene of the Solas romance.


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#53
Aisabel

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Wouldn't it be cool if in either a DLC/expansion/next game they allowed you to go there? I would totally get Baldur's Gate vibes from the Dragon Age games if they did.



#54
herkles

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Wouldn't it be cool if in either a DLC/expansion/next game they allowed you to go there? I would totally get Baldur's Gate vibes from the Dragon Age games if they did.

I doubt it because gaider has no intention of revealing the truth of the maker. Which I hope they stick to. I don't want to know the truth. I like the mystrery of not knowing :P


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#55
gothicshark

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That wasnt skyhold. It was haven. (I think?)


Actually its the remains of the Temple of the Sacred Ashes.

#56
Kantr

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Actually its the remains of the Temple of the Sacred Ashes.

Ah, thats right.



#57
rolson00

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did ne1 rescue solas spirit friend? in that mission solas tells you how a daemon becomes what it is and thats a good spirt denied its original purpose. with that in mind i think the golden city was turned black by mages trying to control spirts of the fade and that the darkspawn are somthing else  (in DA:O the darkspwan built a weird statue wyy i ask?) 



#58
Uriko128

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Some contradictions here indeed. To understand what the Black City is, we first need to understand the nature of the Maker. This is a difficult task because we don’t even know if the Maker truly exists.

 

On one side, I can only see 3 “proofs” that the Maker does exist: Andraste’s ashes had miraculous powers, The Old Gods are trapped underground, and the Blight exists, which seems evidence that the Chant of Light is true.

 

 

But then, we have an eyewitness: Corypheus, who says there’s no Golden City, it was always black, and there was no maker there.

 

If Corypheus is right, why are Andrastes ashes magical? Was she an avatar for another God (maybe Mythal or any other elf God)? why are the Old Gods trapped underground? Why does the Blight exist, was it really a punishment? For Corypheus, the Blight doesn’t seem like a punishment at all, thanks to the Blight, he can control people, darkspawn, and he could even turn an Old God into an Archdemon if he wanted to. So is the blight a punishment or rather a power stolen from the Black City?



#59
fhs33721

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Yeah I don't think it is a prison of any sort. Prisions usually aren't empty. Yet the only person we meet that has actually been in the black city, namely Corypheus, claims that "Beg that I suceed, for I have seen the throne of the gods and it was empty." If it was really intended to hold someone inside, why would it be empty?



#60
Dean_the_Young

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Yeah I don't think it is a prison of any sort. Prisions usually aren't empty. Yet the only person we meet that has actually been in the black city, namely Corypheus, claims that "Beg that I suceed, for I have seen the throne of the gods and it was empty." If it was really intended to hold someone inside, why would it be empty?

 

Considering that Corypheus wasn't blighted before but was blighted after, the 'prison' could have been less to hold a person or being and more to hold the force and corruption of the blight. It seems pretty reasonable/obvious to me that the Blight was what the magisters found in the city. (There is also the possibility that there was something, but that Corypheus can't remember.)

 

 

Which, if true, begs the question of what are the origins of the Blight proper? For it to have been contained in the Black City, there's an implication that someone must have put it there- especially since the Red Lyrium Idol in the primevial thaig implies may be evidence that the Blight does, in fact, pre-date the first Blight.

 

For those who missed it, Red Lyrium is regular lyrium infected by the Blight. Which also proves that lyrium is in some fashion alive, because the Blight doesn't infect metals and minerals. For there to have been a Red Lyrium idol in the primevial thaig, there must have been Blight as far back as then.

 

If we reach back to the myths and indications that the Veil is a construct, then I suspect the Black City was a prison for the Blight/other forces that was the basis for the Fade being created in the first place.


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#61
Wissenschaft 2.0

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In elven lore there were two sets of gods. The Elven gods and the forgotten were banished to different places. I believe the archdemons are simply the prisons for the souls of the forgotten. Flemeth mentions that a soul can not occupy the unwilling. I suspect this means the Archdemons have no souls and are meant only to serve as vessels to keep the forgotten asleep. Whatever the blight is......it seeks out the Archdemons to corrupting the vessel holding that ancient soul.

 

The Black City could be many things. Perhaps the fade is an artificial creation and the city is where the machinery to create it lies. What we do know is that your can physically enter the fade without being corrupted by the blight. So whatever the blight is, it has to originate from the black city. Also, Cory is still uncertain if Dumat was ever real. It seems someone tempted him into going to the black city. However, that does not mean it was Dumat. The question then becomes, what reason would someone have to cause the blights? Ancient Elves seeking revenge on Thedas, who don't consider the elves left there as real elves?



#62
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If we reach back to the myths and indications that the Veil is a construct, then I suspect the Black City was a prison for the Blight/other forces that was the basis for the Fade being created in the first place.

 

Thats also a possibility, which means the blights were started when someone told Cory to go to the black city. This was quite possibly done with full knowledge it would start the blights.

 

Another question left on answer is why did Cory believe going to the black city again would allow him to become a god? If the fade is artificial then perhaps the City holds the key to controlling it or merging the fade with the physical world.



#63
fhs33721

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Considering that Corypheus wasn't blighted before but was blighted after, the 'prison' could have been less to hold a person or being and more to hold the force and corruption of the blight.

Then it would be more of a tightly sealed canister with a biohazard-symbol on it instead of a prison, wouldn't it? :P

 

 

Also, Cory is still uncertain if Dumat was ever real. It seems someone tempted him into going to the black city. However, that does not mean it was Dumat. The question then becomes, what reason would someone have to cause the blights? Ancient Elves seeking revenge on Thedas, who don't consider the elves left there as real elves?

I'm pretty sure that Corypheus is 100% sure that Dumat was(?) real. It's established in-universe that the old gods are real and exist, though they might not be on actual god-level. However it is a god question if it really was him that sent Corypheus to the black city.

 

As to the question, who would benefit from it:

The only one I can thik of is the nightmare-demon that works with Corypheus in DAI. After all the fear of the blight and of Darkspawn allowed him to become immensly powerful. Also codex entires in his realm imply that Corypheus attempted the whole thing because he himslef was afraid for the future of Tevinter and wanted to lead it back to glory. However while this theory does make some sort of sense, I myself doubt that the nightmare would have that sort of influece on Thedas.

Which leaves me at the conclusion that I don't know anyting for real. Might as well have been Dumat or anyone else.



#64
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I'm leaning more towards prison.

#65
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I'm pretty sure that Corypheus is 100% sure that Dumat was(?) real.

 

Actually, Cory states during "In your heart shall burn" that he discovered nobody was in the black city, there was no god there. He took this to mean there are no gods and therefore plans to become one himself. Also, at the end of the final battle, Cory asks, if Dumat really exists, for him to aid Cory. There obviously is no answer. Cory believed it as Dumat who lead him to the black city but oddly enough, Cory's gods fell silent after he reached the city. So I wonder if it really was Dumat or someone else leading Cory astray.



#66
fhs33721

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Actually, Cory states during "In your heart shall burn" that he discovered nobody was in the black city, there was no god there. He took this to mean there are no gods and therefore plans to become one himself. Also, at the end of the final battle, Cory asks, if Dumat really exists, for him to aid Cory. There obviously is no answer. Cory believed it as Dumat who lead him to the black city but oddly enough, Cory's gods fell silent after he reached the city. So I wonder if it really was Dumat or someone else leading Cory astray.

Of course the old gods weren't in the black city. He specifically went there to claim it for Dumat, who was trapped underground in Thedas. (Wether Dumat really was the one who made him do it is unclear though) Then he became Darkspawn, the first blight happened and he became trapped and when he was freed Dumat was already dead. Just then did Corypheus decide to become a god himself.

We know that Dumat existed. The Wardens eventually killed him at the end of the first blight. The old gods were always real in the setting. You even kill one yourself in DAO.



#67
Dean_the_Young

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Then it would be more of a tightly sealed canister with a biohazard-symbol on it instead of a prison, wouldn't it? :P

 

It depends. The Blight is effectively a hive-mind: can a have-mind be imprisoned?

 

 

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure that Corypheus is 100% sure that Dumat was(?) real. It's established in-universe that the old gods are real and exist, though they might not be on actual god-level. However it is a god question if it really was him that sent Corypheus to the black city.

 

As to the question, who would benefit from it:

The only one I can thik of is the nightmare-demon that works with Corypheus in DAI. After all the fear of the blight and of Darkspawn allowed him to become immensly powerful. Also codex entires in his realm imply that Corypheus attempted the whole thing because he himslef was afraid for the future of Tevinter and wanted to lead it back to glory. However while this theory does make some sort of sense, I myself doubt that the nightmare would have that sort of influece on Thedas.

Which leaves me at the conclusion that I don't know anyting for real. Might as well have been Dumat or anyone else.

 

 

 

I don't see why unleashing and mastering the Blight couldn't have been a deliberate ploy and ambition of the Old Gods. It may not even have been a case of 'suceeeded too well'- if you're a power-hungry megalomaniac who wants to be an absolute ruler above all else, the Blight has a number of appealing aspects.



#68
Silcron

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I don't know if it has been mentioned, but in the comics they introduce Great (maybe Grand, I don't remember the exact term quite well) Dragons. Flemeth kept the dragons alive and her daughter Yavanna was in charge of waking them up. She effectively started the Dragon Age when she did.

Point being, Yavanna talks of a time when Dragons were common, when they ruled the world, and it kind of seems there wasn't a Veil back them.

This leads me to think that the Elven gods, with all that knowledge of the Fade, the Veil, the Eluvians actually created those (we know they did one). So maybe the Old Gods predate the Elven ones, and this is a war between them. OG rule, Elven fight their way to power, OGs take advantage of Elves infighting and humans to take back power, using later the magisters to try and restore things as how they used to be.

It explains Flemeth/Mythal's interest on Urthemiel's soul. If she can dominate or warp one of her enemies (by making it live in a child she's raising up, or Morrigan) that would give them a great advantage. As to why transform into dragon form? Irony? Aknowledgement of their physical prowess?

Now, the Taint. Maybe the OGs created it as a weapon against the Elven gods? A way to dominate everyone and everything into serving them? It does have many advantages, specially for them, as darkspawn they don't even have to eat anymore, it sustains them, plus being able to respawn if their killed, huge armies willing to obey their every thought...Thus it makes sense for the Elven Gods to create something to hold it outside of the world, the City (Golden because it succceds in containing it, Black because of what it contains)

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd say DA is building towards this deity war conclusion (the point of view may be to free ourselves from all gods, or maybe beating both will finally give us that happy ending with the Maker the Chantry preaches about, or maybe allign ourselves with any of them, or the Qun).

#69
ryno113

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They say this, but so much of what the Elves believe is proven to be completely wrong, i.e., Tevinter didn't cause the downfall of the elves, the elves did it mostly to themselves. Now, some of the elves were apparently being helped by Tevinter, but Tevinter didn't start the war and didn't cause the fall of Arlathan. The elves just pushed all the blame them for whatever reason. Probably because it was easier to completely blame a different group than to admit that you were in the wrong to begin with.

 

We know that the ancient elves do blame the humans for the quickening and we know they lost their immortality around the time of the formation of the tevinter empire. The reason the elves retreated was to extend their lives so we can assume the even if the human appearance didn't start the quickening moving away from them slowed it (which is why the Tevinter Imperium was able to cover so much land so quickly).

 

I would guess (complete speculation) that around this time the elven 'gods' were imprisoned so perhaps it is a combination of the humans appearing and the disappearing of Mythal & co. that has a lot to do with it. I would say everything after that regarding the Elven 'gods' is lore collected by the Dalish which is either wrong, misunderstood or we have no way of knowing whether it is true.



#70
Ranadiel Marius

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Personally my current theory is that it is an elven city that was abandoned (and possibly sealed off with the veil) after being infected by the blight during the wars that ended the elven empires.

Actually, Cory states during "In your heart shall burn" that he discovered nobody was in the black city, there was no god there. He took this to mean there are no gods and therefore plans to become one himself. Also, at the end of the final battle, Cory asks, if Dumat really exists, for him to aid Cory. There obviously is no answer. Cory believed it as Dumat who lead him to the black city but oddly enough, Cory's gods fell silent after he reached the city. So I wonder if it really was Dumat or someone else leading Cory astray.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a bit which mentions that Cory was having a crisis of faith because he couldn't hear Dumat despite being his high priest, and then he suddenly heard a whisper in the back of his mind saying to go to the Golden City which he interpreted to be Dumat's voice. I like the theory that that voice was actually Nightmare.

#71
Taleroth

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Old magical experiment gone wrong.

#72
Fisva

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Guys, your points and hints are so interesting and logical that now I won't be able to sleep, because I will be thinking how my Warden can stop the Calling of these Old Gods that Solas imprisoned... :D

Now I wish there was an important role for my Warden in the future, but I'm afraid that Bioware will not make a happy ending out of it...



#73
Kel Eligor

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I for one, was always curious as to why the famous Golden/Black City is located within the Fade - a twisted and haunting dimension where spirits and demons thrive - and also the source of dreams. If the city is analogous to the kingdom of heaven, it seems strange to me that it would share real-estate with a dimension that has been confirmed to be where souls do not come to rest for eternity. 

 

I'm tempted to say Corypheus is right and that the Black City was never golden, but I also believe that it is not a seat or throne for a god at all. Given that he's only seen a glimpse of it before being corrupted, I'm quite certain Corypheus doesn't know that either. 



#74
ColloquialAnachron

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Here's my theory, which is an edited cross post:  The Black City is a living thing which used to be Golden but turned Black after Solas/Fen'Harel locked the Old Gods out of it.

 

Solas and Mythal were/are trying to revive the Golden City and thus the Old/Elven Gods.  When the post credit scene first opens, Flemeth is seen pushing a soul (likely Keiran's/Urthemiel's) through the Eluvian.  Now, whatever happens to FleMythal, what happens to Flemeth's body once the soul leaves it?  It turns completely black.  Black, like a certain city a certain blighted Magister found "empty."  So the city was Black and empty before the Magisters entered it.  But what about the Blight?  Consider Dorian's explanation of how the Tevinter choose to remember how the Blights started.  Essentially they disavow responsibility.  What if this is more or less correct? They did become tainted, but their actions did not in and of themselves create that taint.  If the city was a living thing in and of itself, and Fen'Harel, in his rage locked away the things which kept it "alive" and healthy, then like Flemeth, it would turn black.  However, much like lyrium, it would still have power and still have the power to effect other beings.  What if the City, like red lyrium, basically became infectious?  So when the Magisters enter the Black City, they become infected with a warped version of what used to be a "natural" biological response for the elves. The Blight and Darkspawn which came from that, resulted in a cycle Fen'Harel had not anticipated - the old gods were now not merely locked away any more, they were being sought out by the Blighted Magisters and Darkspawn, corrupted and, shockingly, eventually destroyed. 

 

 

Lyrium, being a living thing, is actually a result of some kind of proximity to an old god soul.  It of course grows out from the spot, but how else could living magically potent rock come to exist if not a close proximity to beings for whom magic was a natural as breathing...indeed magic was a biologic function).

 

This explains not only Solas's sadness when talking to the Inquisitor at the end, as he more than any others realises that the return of the old gods is far from ideal, but he sees the world, and Flemeth, decaying and degrading.  So Flemeth returns an old god's soul to the City, and becomes as much a part of Solas as his heart.  Solas not only apologises to the Inquisitor - If you go through certain dialogue choices and express the belief that even with great power so long as one continually tries to do better, learn from their mistakes, and keep going, everything can be made right and good - Solas expresses warm admiration and agreement.  Solas has been trying to find a way to help his friends (the old/elven gods) and his people (at this point basically all people not just the Elves {who he certainly does not see as "like him"}), and has been failing despite having great knowledge and power.  Things have not been going according to plan for Fen'Harel and Mythal, but that doesn't mean they won't keep trying.

 

TL;DR - Solas/Fen'Harel, thinking the Old Gods/Elven Gods had gone too far (believing Mythal dead), tricked and imprisoned them by, in part, separating the Fade and "Real" Worlds.  The Golden City, like Flemeth after Mythal left her body, went Black.  Lyrium grows out from imprisoned Old Gods in real world.  Magisters enter Black City, are warped, corrupted, and Blighted by it.  Many return to real world as Blighted Darkspawn and seek out Old Gods for a variety of possibilities.


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#75
Fisva

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Here's my theory, which is an edited cross post:  The Black City is a living thing which used to be Golden but turned Black after Solas/Fen'Harel locked the Old Gods out of it.

 

Solas and Mythal were/are trying to revive the Golden City and thus the Old/Elven Gods.  When the post credit scene first opens, Flemeth is seen pushing a soul (likely Keiran's/Urthemiel's) through the Eluvian.  Now, whatever happens to FleMythal, what happens to Flemeth's body once the soul leaves it?  It turns completely black.  Black, like a certain city a certain blighted Magister found "empty."  So the city was Black and empty before the Magisters entered it.  But what about the Blight?  Consider Dorian's explanation of how the Tevinter choose to remember how the Blights started.  Essentially they disavow responsibility.  What if this is more or less correct? They did become tainted, but their actions did not in and of themselves create that taint.  If the city was a living thing in and of itself, and Fen'Harel, in his rage locked away the things which kept it "alive" and healthy, then like Flemeth, it would turn black.  However, much like lyrium, it would still have power and still have the power to effect other beings.  What if the City, like red lyrium, basically became infectious?  So when the Magisters enter the Black City, they become infected with a warped version of what used to be a "natural" biological response for the elves. The Blight and Darkspawn which came from that, resulted in a cycle Fen'Harel had not anticipated - the old gods were now not merely locked away any more, they were being sought out by the Blighted Magisters and Darkspawn, corrupted and, shockingly, eventually destroyed. 

 

 

Lyrium, being a living thing, is actually a result of some kind of proximity to an old god soul.  It of course grows out from the spot, but how else could living magically potent rock come to exist if not a close proximity to beings for whom magic was a natural as breathing...indeed magic was a biologic function).

 

This explains not only Solas's sadness when talking to the Inquisitor at the end, as he more than any others realises that the return of the old gods is far from ideal, but he sees the world, and Flemeth, decaying and degrading.  So Flemeth returns an old god's soul to the City, and becomes as much a part of Solas as his heart.  Solas not only apologises to the Inquisitor - If you go through certain dialogue choices and express the belief that even with great power so long as one continually tries to do better, learn from their mistakes, and keep going, everything can be made right and good - Solas expresses warm admiration and agreement.  Solas has been trying to find a way to help his friends (the old/elven gods) and his people (at this point basically all people not just the Elves {who he certainly does not see as "like him"}), and has been failing despite having great knowledge and power.  Things have not been going according to plan for Fen'Harel and Mythal, but that doesn't mean they won't keep trying.

 

TL;DR - Solas/Fen'Harel, thinking the Old Gods/Elven Gods had gone too far (believing Mythal dead), tricked and imprisoned them by, in part, separating the Fade and "Real" Worlds.  The Golden City, like Flemeth after Mythal left her body, went Black.  Lyrium grows out from imprisoned Old Gods in real world.  Magisters enter Black City, are warped, corrupted, and Blighted by it.  Many return to real world as Blighted Darkspawn and seek out Old Gods for a variety of possibilities.

 

Fantastic speculations. I would only add my recent idea: we do know that elves rarely bear the taint. It is stated in Origins (Alistair says it, as I recall) that there are almost no Grey Warden elves. I think we know only Fiona (who somehow removes the taint) and possibly the Warden from DA:O. Oh, and Tamlen, but that was an accident. Maybe this is also a clue.


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