55 réponses à ce sujet

[TyroneTasty]

Bibdy wrote...
Why CAN'T Genlock A you face at the start be weaker than Genlock B you meet later on?

Especially considering that the Blight has only grown stronger. Those spawn in the Korcari Wilds were only scouts, obviously.

[Paromlin]

ladydesire wrote...


Hooray... You can have your "linear" game (because that's what this mod pretty much does to DA:O ), and I'll play it the way I like it, including using the custom class I've been working on lately (currently a level 9 Warden).

It doesn't become linear when you install this mod.. what are you talking about?

This is the most common misconception about non level scaled games. That they're linear. I wonder where this confusion comes from.
It's funny .. I bet you've played rpgs that have no level scaling and are much more non-linear than DA. From Bioware even. Perhaps you forgot.

Regarding your warden class mod.. good for you, good for you.  Enjoy playing the warden you always wanted to be.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Bibdy wrote...

Sounds like you've had common RPG elements drilled into your head too deeply. Where's the logic in assuming that every genlock is absolutely 100% identical to the last in combat ability?

Why CAN'T Genlock A you face at the start be weaker than Genlock B you meet later on?

There's no reason why Genlock A can't be more powerful than Genlock B.  But why is Genlock B always more powerful?  Why is Genlock B never less powerful?

It's not the variability that's the problem - it's the patterns within that variability.

[Mordaedil]

Level scaling is a fine thing if it also scales player-side factors. Like SPELLS. My spells should get equally more powerful along with my enemies. Or my other abilities as a rogue or fighter.

[Dargar21]

What level did you make the High Dragon?

[Paromlin]

I didn't adjust the levels, it's not my mod.
Why don't you discover for yourself? I only looked at the 2da after I completed all the main quests. I didn't want to metagame. Be sure it's not like Baldur's Gate where you get slaughtered in 2 seconds if you go to the "wrong" area - not saying that's not exciting as well.
If you want I can send you a pm though.

Also, guys, the least you can do is click the "+" for popularity when you download the mod. It takes 1 second. As it stands, there are 3 times more downloads than clicks on the "+" button.

Mordaedil wrote...

Level scaling is a fine thing if it also scales player-side factors. Like SPELLS. My spells should get equally more powerful along with my enemies. Or my other abilities as a rogue or fighter.

Like.. in every game. Spells scale with your level / attributes and that's a staple of rpgs. 
You're aware that enemies' spells and talents scale as well, as you level up, right?

[harlath]

Spoiler










I made him her level 18.

Modifié par harlath, 28 janvier 2010 - 09:04 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Paromlin wrote...

Like.. in every game. Spells scale with your level / attributes and that's a staple of rpgs. 
You're aware that enemies' spells and talents scale as well, as you level up, right?

That's the problem.  The scaling in DAO is based on level, but the advancement of the party's abilities are based on attributes and talents.  So it's entirely possible for the enemies to grow stronger in combat while the PC does not.

[Bibdy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

That's the problem.  The scaling in DAO is based on level, but the advancement of the party's abilities are based on attributes and talents.  So it's entirely possible for the enemies to grow stronger in combat while the PC does not.

Wait what? Your attributes and talents COME from your level...you don't magically go up in level without getting some new talent and attribute points to spend and you also get those usable books to stay ahead of the curve.

You're not honestly going to tell me this system is making the game impossible for you, are you? The game would be even harder without it, if all of the enemies right at the end of the game were level 25 and you missed some side-quests. Level-scaling makes things easier than they could potentially be, not harder.

[ladydesire]

Paromlin wrote...

ladydesire wrote...


Hooray... You can have your "linear" game (because that's what this mod pretty much does to DA:O ), and I'll play it the way I like it, including using the custom class I've been working on lately (currently a level 9 Warden).

It doesn't become linear when you install this mod.. what are you talking about?

This is the most common misconception about non level scaled games. That they're linear. I wonder where this confusion comes from.
It's funny .. I bet you've played rpgs that have no level scaling and are much more non-linear than DA. From Bioware even. Perhaps you forgot.

Out of the last 7 RPGs I bought, 4 were Bioware games (two of the others were from Obsidian, the last was from CD Projekt); out of the four Bioware games i've only completed one to the point where I could see if it was linear or not (Mass Effect, which I did beat). The other three are Dragon Age: Origins (I've got two characters to the level 9-10 range), Neverwinter Nights and Knights of the Old Republic; I never got past the first act in NWN and didn't get off the first planet in KotOR. I've got more chance to complete this game than I do those two, since they aren't installed anymore.

Regarding your warden class mod.. good for you, good for you.  Enjoy playing the warden you always wanted to be.

It will be available for lots of folks to try in a few days. :happy:

[Sylvius the Mad]

Bibdy wrote...

Wait what? Your attributes and talents COME from your level...you don't magically go up in level without getting some new talent and attribute points to spend and you also get those usable books to stay ahead of the curve.

Right, but that means that I could level up (and thus make everything else in the world generally stronger), but have specific abilities that are now less effective.

I mentioned Fireball earlier.  If I can one-shot Genlocks with a Fireball, but then I level up, but no points in Magic, and now I can't one-shot Genlocks with a Fireball, what just happened?

Not to mention that it's the PC's level that seems to matter, and it can change irrespective of the companions' levels.  Morrigan might not have levelled at all and seen her spells grow less effective.

You're not honestly going to tell me this system is making the game impossible for you, are you?

This has nothing to do with difficulty.  The issue is congruity.

[Bibdy]

How is that any different than any other RPG? You get fireball in AD&D and you can obliterate level 1 goblins in one shot, but then you level up and you're facing level 5 goblins and all of a sudden you can't one-shot them.



Every example you seem to be giving me can be traced back to operate the exact same way in any other RPG.



The only real difference here is that creatures aren't chained to a specific level at a specific geographical location. Do you genuinely LIKE wandering around only to come into contact which creatures that one-shot you? Or that you get to go around one-shotting other creatures? Where's the fun in that?

[Fumbleumble]

Harlath.. I doff my hat to thee.



Good one mate.. Scaling makes a game pointless.. removes all the fun and apprehension from an rpg.. I love the feeling of not knowing what's round the corner...walking into a cave and getting royally ****ted ..."Opps.. can't go in there yet :/"...or nothing but fodder.. "meh".. class in a glass.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Bibdy wrote...

How is that any different than any other RPG? You get fireball in AD&D and you can obliterate level 1 goblins in one shot, but then you level up and you're facing level 5 goblins and all of a sudden you can't one-shot them.

Since when do goblins have levels?  Goblins are 1HD creatures in AD&D.  They have 1-8 hp all the time.

But if AD&D did behave as you describe, that would be a problem.  Where did the level 1 goblins go?  Where were the level 5 goblins before?  The setting doesn't make any sense if all the scale with you.

Do you genuinely LIKE wandering around only to come into contact which creatures that one-shot you?

I dislike that there appear to be no powerful creatures in the world until I'm powerful.  Why didn't the high level warriors already solve this problem back when all the darkspawn only had 20 hit points?

Or that you get to go around one-shotting other creatures? Where's the fun in that?

The fun in achievement?  The fun in growing stronger?  You really don't see that?

[Bibdy]

I don't see the enjoyment in gameplay from that, no. I've played enough RPGs that give you a big map to explore, but still restrict your exploration due to the levels of the creatures they throw around the place. Games where I'm expected to wander around, stumbling in the dark, trying to find where I'm supposed to go next. It gets very irritating and its why I didn't get very far in games like Gothic 2 or 3. The Gothic series kind of felt like a single-player MMO-type world, but that kind of world is just old and irritating to me now.



I'm fine with thinking of levels more abstractly, in that its more of a representation of time passing and your experience in battle, not necessarily your POWAR LEVUL where you're only going to find a challenge when you stumble on creatures who have a larger POWAR LEVUL than you.



I bought the game expecting a tactical RPG and I like the constant challenge, because it means that when things get easier, its because I'm getting better at the game, not because I've found the correct route through the game.



To each their own.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I don't see challenges as any sort of reward. I don't want my boss to come in and say "Hey, great job! As a reward, we're going to cut your salary to make your life that much more of a struggle."



I think that's crazy. The game needs to give my character some incentive to get better at things. Why else would he bother doing it? It's a roleplaying game; my character's preferences carry a lot more weight than mine do.

[BooPi]

I'm just not sure that fits with this game.

The idea of static enemies works, but only if there is little increase in power between levels. For example, if Genlocks stay level 2, and then you're level 25, you can stand there and let a pack of Genlocks hack away at you for 20 minutes, and not be any worse for wear. To me, this is less realistic and desirable than gaining levels. Even for experienced fighters, all combat should be dangerous, it's just experienced fighters have a larger repertoire of tactics and "moves" they can use to exploit the situation at hand.

So, if you make enemies static, then you have to rethink what leveling means. It can't be a "more HP and damage and more powerful abilities" deal anymore, but rather a "slightly more power but mostly more options" deal. As in, where I used to only be able to hack away at you, now I can stun and backstab, or hide and ambush from a superior position, or hit with strong ranged attacks before closing to melee, and do whatever it takes to engage in a way that exploits your weaknesses and my strengths.

A Genlock, even a low level Genlock, should never become trivial. Combat should always be a matter of "we need to **** them up before they **** us up, and fast." Otherwise, to be honest, it becomes boring and doesn't feel worth it--and, though I hate to use this word, doesn't feel "realistic" to the way that we know combat really should be.

And, unless you're willing to change all that along with giving the AI static leveling, then it's probably better to stick with the more simplified "moar power!" setting.

Modifié par BooPi, 29 janvier 2010 - 05:37 .

[booke63]

There is at least one main part of the game where you can't back out once you pass a certain point. So while you, the player, might know to avoid that area too soon in the game, your Toon probably should NOT know that. So what if you go to one of these spots where you can't back out and can't kill the bad guys? You're done! You'll be stuck in that area.



Yes you can load a old save game, but here you're undermining the point of the mod which is to make the game more "realistic," no?

[Bibdy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't see challenges as any sort of reward. I don't want my boss to come in and say "Hey, great job! As a reward, we're going to cut your salary to make your life that much more of a struggle."

I think that's crazy. The game needs to give my character some incentive to get better at things. Why else would he bother doing it? It's a roleplaying game; my character's preferences carry a lot more weight than mine do.

That's why its a story-driven game, and why level-scaling fits within this model. Its a 'pick-your-own-path' adventure book, and when you start limiting the directions the player can go in, you limit the number of paths they can enjoy the story in. Because of level-scaling and the multiple paths, there's essentially no WRONG direction, although there are still some limitations due to some creatures having a minimum level.

Static strength works well in a loot and level-driven game like World of Warcraft, or any other MMO, but when you're trying to tell a story, and give the player lots of choice within that story, restricting their path with static levels kind of defeats the purpose.

Gameplay should always trump realism. Gameplay makes sales and generates far more enjoyment from the masses than realism. A game can have the most amazing graphics and realism mechanics in the world, but if the game itself sucks, its going to be a flop.

Modifié par Bibdy, 29 janvier 2010 - 06:29 .

[Yozaro]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Bibdy wrote...

I don't really get the logic behind disliking level scaling.

That's funny, because the source of the dislike is logic.

Why are these genlocks more powerful than those other genlocks by exactly the amount my party grew more powerful in the intervening time?  Why do these genlocks not die from a single fireball but those previous genlocks did?

Level scaling breaks the internal consistency of the setting.

Source of disliking a feature should be the thought "this is not fun", not "this is not logical." Making the game more linear (and maybe boring, if you go into a low level area when your level is too high) in order to get the feeling of progression... If you find it fun and worth it, then this mod is good (assuming that it does the changes well). Don't try to put logic into the idea.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Not Logical == Not Fun

[SheffSteel]

I was so happy when my first mage got to use Crushing Prison - but only for a very short while, until I met a Genlock mage who of course used the spell against me. Fights against enemy groups including mages became harder from that point. A good game design doesn't punish your character for "advancing".

Perhaps the compromise solution is the best - scaling the enemies' toughness by 50% of the player's level, i.e. every time you gain a level, the enemies gain half of one. This prevents the game getting too far out of balance when players wander into areas too early or too late in the game, and it makes sure that going up a level still means you're getting tougher compared to the bad guys.

Anybody like to write that mod? It shouldn't be too hard...

[Bibdy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Not Logical == Not Fun

The Borg have spoken

[Mordaedil]

Bibdy wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Not Logical == Not Fun

The Borg have spoken

You *did* read his signature, right?

[Dark_Ansem]

I'll download it if this mod does to Dragon Age what FCOM does to Oblivion, which had a very similar problem: too many bandits armed with top-tier equipment that could only be found in some rare places. and actually toned down enemies that were supposed to be very tough.