399 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

I guess that what happens when you follow traitors and greasy dudes who punch old ladies in public.

Was not the real Lord Seeker....

[TheJediSaint]

Was not the real Lord Seeker....

The real one still wasn't exactly a ray of sunshine.

[The Baconer]

Was not the real Lord Seeker....

 

Note the "and". It's not like the real Lucius was even an improvement.

 

And the Seekers are still traitors regardless of the Cory business.

[Mr.House]

The real one still wasn't exactly a ray of sunshine.

Considering what he learned in the book, I don't blame him that his very world shattered. Even Cass was disgusted by what she learned.

[TheJediSaint]

Considering what he learned in the book, I don't blame him that his very world shattered. Even Cass was disgusted by what she learned.

Disgusted, not driven mad. That's a key difference.

[RenAdaar]

You guys are making me feel like I'm the only one who sided with the mages :/

 

I feel bad for both groups though sucks to be either of them.

[TheJediSaint]

You guys are making me feel like I'm the only one who sided with the mages :/
 
I feel bad for both groups though sucks to be either of them.

I sided with the Mages. But it wasn't out of sympathy.

[rpgfan321]

I don't think there's a correct answer on which group was in the right. They both had their issues and good intentions. I choose Templars, but that's because I saw it played out so much in streams etc that I went with Templars to see that side. 

[Dean_the_Young]

I admit, it's a rather pleasant sight to see virtually the entire Templar Order join Corypheus.

 

You mean, besides all the ones who joined the Inquisition or who went AWOL or were with the Loyalists who didn't?

 

'Majority' and 'virtually the entire' are different things, and only one of the descriptions is supported in the game.

 

Not sure why you want to consider mind control 'joining' either. The mages willingly sold themselves into slavery to the Venitori. The Templars were tricked and drugged into compliance.

[Milan92]

I sided with the Mages. But it wasn't out of sympathy.

 

it was because of Dorian, wasn't it?  

 

The only reason why I would side with the mages for once is because of extra time with Dorian. Mission-wise I vastly prefer Champions of the Just.

[Dean_the_Young]

That could be some good kink in the bedroom...

 

'So I hear you're looking for a woman who can, and I quote, "Light your loins afire." Well, lucky for you...'

[Lulupab]

You mean, besides all the ones who joined the Inquisition or who went AWOL or were with the Loyalists who didn't?

 

'Majority' and 'virtually the entire' are different things, and only one of the descriptions is supported in the game.

 

Not sure why you want to consider mind control 'joining' either. The mages willingly sold themselves into slavery to the Venitori. The Templars were tricked and drugged into compliance.

 

Mages didn't even know Venatori existed until the end parts, also it was Fiona who sided with Alexius, mages just went with it because there was no other choice. The game tells us the Templars were getting ready to attack the mages, with that in mind mages couldn't afford to fight among themselves. The Templars didn't have to follow their corrupt leaders but the desire for their junk or possibly getting paid as well motivated them. Any Templar with enough humanity or willpower left the order long before we choose to help either mages or Templars. Those who have remained are junkies whom their first priority is satisfying their addiction.

 

Both sides are portrayed equally and people need to deal with it. We don't accept excuses from drug addicts and we shouldn't from Templars as well.

[Dean_the_Young]

Mages didn't even know Venatori existed until the end parts, also it was Fiona who sided with Alexius, mages just went with it because there was no other choice. The game tells us the Templars were getting ready to attack the mages, with that in mind mages couldn't afford to fight among themselves. The Templars didn't have to follow their corrupt leaders but the desire for their junk or possibly getting paid as well motivated them. Any Templar with enough humanity or willpower left the order long before we choose to help either mages or Templars. Those who have remained are junkies whom their first priority is satisfying their addiction.

 

Both sides are portrayed equally and people need to deal with it. We don't accept excuses from drug addicts and we shouldn't from Templars as well.

 

Uh, there is a distinct difference between people who do bad things from coercion and being mind controlled, and people who do bad things because they need to rationalize their shitty planning and put themselves into a corner (which they could later have left).

 

Fiona didn't 'side' with Alexius- she sold herself and the magi into slavery. She claims it was for an imminent attack, but that attack never comes- she was simply wrong about the need to do it, just like she was wrong about having no choice. She had a choice before (to rebel or not rebel), her rationalization of not having allies was a consequence of her previous choices on when and how to rebel, and she and all the other magi who sold themselves into servitude could have left for the Inquisition the moment it became a force. Which is to say, the point the Inquisitor can walk to Redcliffe. I am pending my own re-playthrough to see if the magi are put through anything like the enslavement the Warden mages go through, whether they had a choice or chance to abandon ship, but their entry into Corpheus's ranks was a matter of choice. No one locked them in a cage to use an addition to fill them with mind-control drugs.

[Lulupab]

Uh, there is a distinct difference between people who do bad things from coercion and being mind controlled, and people who do bad things because they need to rationalize their shitty planning and put themselves into a corner (which they could later have left).

 

Fiona didn't 'side' with Alexius- she sold herself and the magi into slavery. She claims it was for an imminent attack, but that attack never comes- she was simply wrong about the need to do it, just like she was wrong about having no choice. She had a choice before (to rebel or not rebel), her rationalization of not having allies was a consequence of her previous choices on when and how to rebel, and she and all the other magi who sold themselves into servitude could have left for the Inquisition the moment it became a force. Which is to say, the point the Inquisitor can walk to Redcliffe. I am pending my own re-playthrough to see if the magi are put through anything like the enslavement the Warden mages go through, whether they had a choice or chance to abandon ship, but their entry into Corpheus's ranks was a matter of choice. No one locked them in a cage to use an addition to fill them with mind-control drugs.

 

Taking the drug is a choice, your entire post is based on this which is false. There was more than enough time to leave Templar ranks and don't give in to addiction.

 

Look how I replace mages with templars in your 2nd paragraph and how true it sounds:

 

The Templars accepted the consequence of satisfying their addiction and sold themselves to slavery too. They had a choice to leave and no take the drug. Its wrong to claim Templars had no choice. Templars had a choice to separate or not separate from chantry aka their lyrium source. Their rationalization of not having access to blue lyrium is the consequence of their previous actions of how and when to separate. Templars who became absolute junkies with no purpose but to follow and feed on Lyrium could leave at any time when inquisition became a force.

 

Rebel mages would get killed and lynched if they lost the rebellion, on the other hand templars who step down wouldn't share the same fate.

 

No matter how much logical you'll try to make it sound, both sides are portrayed equally.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

it was because of Dorian, wasn't it?

 

The only reason why I would side with the mages for once is because of extra time with Dorian. Mission-wise I vastly prefer Champions of the Just.

 

I like Dorian's entrance better when you meet him outside the gates of Haven before the battle. It's better than Cole's IMO.

[Dean_the_Young]

Taking the drug is a choice, your entire post is based on this which is false. There was more than enough time to leave Templar ranks and don't give in to addiction.

 

 

Capitulation to addiction is as much a choice free from coercion as confessing after beatings.

 

Nor did the Templars have an opportunity to leave when the addiction was being used against them. By the time addiction would set in, they were captives.

 

 

 

 

Look how I replace mages with templars in your 2nd paragraph and how true it sounds:

 

The Templars accepted the consequence of satisfying their addiction and sold themselves to slavery too. They had a choice to leave and no take the drug. Its wrong to claim Templars had no choice. Templars had a choice to separate or not separate from chantry aka their lyrium source. Their rationalization of not having access to blue lyrium is the consequence of their previous actions of how and when to separate. Templars who became absolute junkies with no purpose but to follow and feed on Lyrium could leave at any time when inquisition became a force.

 

 

It doesn't sound like what the mages were faced with, probably because the mages weren't tricked into being physically trapped with a coercive device to create a mindcontrolled army. Being locked into a cage with red lyrium but no blue is not an easily predictable consequence that any reasonable person could be expected to predict. Being backed into a corner with the prospect of military enemies and no allies is exactly what the mage rebellion should have expected, and was being called out on more than a year ago.

 

Rebel mages would get killed and lynched if they lost the rebellion, on the other hand templars who step down wouldn't share the same fate.

 

 

Rebel mages also chose rebellion- to join it, to fight in it, and (assuming we're talking about non-brainwashed mages here) to not leave it. Those who stepped away from rebellion, such as Vivienne's loyalists and those that chose the Inquisition regardless of Mage/Templar, were not killed and lynched.

 

 

No matter how much logical you'll try to make it sound, both sides are portrayed equally.

 

 

'Equally' doesn't mean 'the same.' The Templar fall to Corypheus is different, in manner and cause and reasoning, than the Circle fall to Corypheus. Those differences can be evaluated and weighed accordingly.

 

Personally, I consider 'faced with the fear of a losing a rebellion they chose' a much weaker justification than 'medically tortured into mind control,' not only on its own grounds but also in the context of the mages and what the mage rebellion was supposed to be a rebellion against.

 

The greatest danger of mages is the prospect of abominations, and fear and stress is one of the greatest influences to creating one. Mage independence arguments have for years have revolved around that Mages wouldn't compromise to fear. That they could be counted to not make deals with demons or turn towards the horrific just because they were desperate, that they could and should be trusted in thick and thin to not succumb to temptation and fear. That they should be given a chance, and if no chance would be given that they would be justified in making their own chance and proving themselves that way.

 

The mage rebellion was not only a chance for mages to become independent, but the chance for the mage collective to demonstrate that stress and fear and the prospect of failure wouldn't lead them to throw away their principles and make deals with devils for short term gains and survival. It wasn't just a rebellion against Templar police policies, but a rebellion against the cynicism and suspicions that mages couldn't be trusted not to place themselves first at the expense of non-mages.

 

That... failed.

[Pierce Miller]

Br3admax, on 30 Nov 2014 - 01:53 AM, said:

Except not a single mage alive today is immortal because of their own power, and most certainly not the ones that help close the Breach. 

That's got more to do with the chantry standing in the way of progress.

[draken-heart]

Here are my thoughts on the groups:

• Templars: The Templars are soldiers, they are oath-bound to listen to their leaders and follow orders. They "chose/sold" themselves into slavery because that is their power. They need the lyrium to fight the mages and stop their magic. The red lyrium was just the one they had to take.
• Mages: Fiona never even knew you were coming (she claims). If that is true, then the mages basically signed themselves over to the Venatori because they made that choice. Before this mess, maybe I would have sided with them, but the Time travel just makes my head hurt, I will take addicted Templar over a grand enchanter who may not have even invited the Inquisition in the first place.

[Xilizhra]

The mage rebellion was not only a chance for mages to become independent, but the chance for the mage collective to demonstrate that stress and fear and the prospect of failure wouldn't lead them to throw away their principles and make deals with devils for short term gains and survival. It wasn't just a rebellion against Templar police policies, but a rebellion against the cynicism and suspicions that mages couldn't be trusted not to place themselves first at the expense of non-mages.

 

That... failed.

Hardly. They didn't make any deals with demons, which was the main argument up until now. Also, it seems fairly clear that Alexius lied about his actual terms, and went much farther once he was in Redcliffe than he said he would go--not to mention that there was never any hint of his enslaving people, so I don't know where anyone got that idea.

 

In any case, the templars started out evil. The mages screwed up, but there's no way in any hell or earth that I'd side with the templars.

[Yinello]

I have done the Mage side and enjoyed it a lot. Dorian is as always awesome and it was enjoyable to see a grim dark future that would never happen. I am convinced it was truly Fiona who invited us to meet the Mages only to have time reverted on her by Corypheus and thus manipulated in seeing Tevinter as the only way out. (There's no way she could've known they were Venatori, for all she knew the mages were just going towards a life of hard work and freedom.) That's why she feels weird when you ask her about it. I ended up allying with the Mages because I felt giving them a chance would work better in the long run than imprisoning them again. I loved how later on I was called brave for it. xD

 

Plus I like that they started their own school type thing in the epilogue. Mages governing mages is my preferred type of 'Circle'. I just wish I could've also saved some Templars to aid in their protection - I hate being forced into these situations where you know it's going to end up unbalanced because you can't negotiate peace.

 

Both sides seem to have the theme of following the leader with the wrong decisions. I'm going to play the templar part in my second playthrough and see how that works out.

[raging_monkey]

You guys are making me feel like I'm the only one who sided with the mages :/ I feel bad for both groups though sucks to be either of them.

i sided with the mages cause mages should stick together and helping mundanes who dont like us is a exercise in futility

[Dark Helmet]

Hardly. They didn't make any deals with demons, which was the main argument up until now. Also, it seems fairly clear that Alexius lied about his actual terms, and went much farther once he was in Redcliffe than he said he would go--not to mention that there was never any hint of his enslaving people, so I don't know where anyone got that idea.

 

 

 

The Tevinter magister wasn't dealing in good faith?

 

How could someone like poor innocent Fiona ever be able to expect that!?!

[Xilizhra]

The Tevinter magister wasn't dealing in good faith?

 

However could someone like poor innocent Fiona ever be able to expect that!?!

Because Tevinter couldn't possibly hold onto an outpost that far south with no supply lines, and because the option to get a huge load of indentured southern allies would be a major boon to Alexius' power base. The deal when played straight would seem quite beneficial to him. Actually holding Redcliffe would make no sense at all--unless he had a completely different plan in mind that Fiona would have had no way of knowing about, which he did.

[Barquiel]

Rebel mages also chose rebellion- to join it, to fight in it, and (assuming we're talking about non-brainwashed mages here) to not leave it. Those who stepped away from rebellion, such as Vivienne's loyalists and those that chose the Inquisition regardless of Mage/Templar, were not killed and lynched.
 

 

That is completely false. We meet several mages (both in the Hinterlands/Redcliffe and during wartable missions) who don't support Fiona's rebellion but are still hunted.

[Dark Helmet]

Because Tevinter couldn't possibly hold onto an outpost that far south with no supply lines, and because the option to get a huge load of indentured southern allies would be a major boon to Alexius' power base. The deal when played straight would seem quite beneficial to him. Actually holding Redcliffe would make no sense at all--unless he had a completely different plan in mind that Fiona would have had no way of knowing about, which he did.

 

And Fiona wasn't suspicious enough of Alexius' motives to do a little digging?
 

I suppose that's fair, you'd have to be a former slave or something to distrust a glorious magister!