The Venatori didn't seem to prevent the Inquisitor from comming and going (before "In Hushed Whispers" is started), so I'm gonna chalk the lack of mage initiative to leave, up to them not wanting to.
The Venatori don't even let the Inquisitor into Redcliffe until the fake projection of Fiona invites them in Val Royeaux, which is part of their plan for ambushing, and then capturing or killing the Inquisitor.
Its power and the reasons why one would turn to it are exactly what makes it an analogue to blood magic. Bioware themselves deliberately brought attention to the connection rather bluntly through Barris' dialogue.
And the Taint's do not? Pretty much every form of magic is dangerous. They aren't really the same, is my point, not that there aren't parallels.
My last word and opinion on the actual question which is better between Champions of the Just or In Hushed Whispers, since this current conversation is just a retread of Mage vs. Templar like every other thread.
1. Companion introduction: In Hushed Whispers > Champions of the Just
You get Cole during Champions of the Just and Dorian during In Hushed Whispers, and whomever you don't get is introduced during the attack on Haven. I liked both mission introductions, but Dorian wins out for me for being playable during In Hushed Whispers. I also preferr how Cole is introduced in Haven to how Dorian is if you went with the Templars first.
2. Plots: In Hushed Whispers > Champions of the Just
I'm not making a call on which is better, I was just more interested in seeing the Bad Future were The Elder One wins as opposed to a Battle in the Center of the Mind with the Envy Demon. That, and I feel it more urgent to liberate Redcliffe from Tevinter rule instead of going off in in the middle of nowhere to investigate some Templar compound.
3. NPCs: In Hushed Whispers = Champions of the Just
Ser Barras is probably the most badass Templar in the franchise, while the Envy demon is really creepy. I like Fiona, though I'm not blind to why other hate her, so it was nice to meet her finally, Nice to see Connor again too. Alexiuis and his son are tragic to me, but I can enjoy doing whatever punishment I please to Alexius afterwards.
4. Music: In Hushed Whispers < Champions of the Just
Just had better battle music to me.
5. Boss fights: In Hushed Whispers = Champions of the Just
The Envy Demon and Alexius are the same mechanically. Soak up damage, run and summon minions to beat up party, rinse and repeat.
scrying seemed benign how was that dangerousAnd the Taint's do not? Pretty much every form of magic is dangerous. They aren't really the same, is my point, not that there aren't parallels.
And the Taint's do not?
As in the Taint that the Grey Wardens infect themselves with? No.
They aren't really the same, is my point, not that there aren't parallels.
That they are the same was nobody's argument.
It is indeed. But you don't hear about any. You DO actually hear about Templars who spoke up, and what happened to them.
True.
There's also the templars who go around killing civilians out in the wilds and the mages who do the same, away from each groups.
The mages also have those who remained loyal to the Chantry and the Circle's via Vivienne and her followers. Both groups have their apples and their worms within.
Personally, when it comes to the individual quests, I liked the atmosphere of the future more than I liked the templar recruitment quest, and ultimately it doesn't matter which group we sign on as it keeps that group from becoming corrupted and prevents the leaders from making really, really stupid decisions.
Sure, Lord-Seeker Lucius kind of forced Red Lyrium on all his templars, but you would think his captains would take one look at that order and call it stupid, relieve him of command, but no, they were in it for their own power as well and it's the recruits and rank and file kind of had to suffer for it. Same with the mages trapped by Fiona's deal. Both sides kind of had the short end of the stick thanks to their leaders.
Also, I don't know how far others have gotten, but I have met the real Lord Lucius by doing Cassandra's personal quest....
With Cassandra's personal quest, the templar quest, and the mage quest, I think I can safely say that Fiona probably had made the most logical course of action between the two groups, even if her decision was a bad one.
I still sought the support of the mages simply to kick Tevinter out of Ferelden. I was far less than impressed with how they handled their freedom once it was declared.
sounds about right lol cant be worse than what mundanes do lolMages: figet to be free to own slaves for tevinter. Mundanes should obey us. If you don't make us the rulers and cast down the non mages the glorious imperium will occupy your lands
As in the Taint that the Grey Wardens infect themselves with? No.
Yeah it is. Especially given the experiments into the power of the blood. The same thing that powers that gives red lyrium it's properties.
That they are the same was nobody's argument.
The argument was that using red lyrium is "mundane blood magic" which it isn't. Blood magic has way more drawbacks, uses, and problems. It's a whole different ball game.
True.
There's also the templars who go around killing civilians out in the wilds and the mages who do the same, away from each groups.
The mages also have those who remained loyal to the Chantry and the Circle's via Vivienne and her followers. Both groups have their apples and their worms within.
Personally, when it comes to the individual quests, I liked the atmosphere of the future more than I liked the templar recruitment quest, and ultimately it doesn't matter which group we sign on as it keeps that group from becoming corrupted and prevents the leaders from making really, really stupid decisions.
Sure, Lord-Seeker Lucius kind of forced Red Lyrium on all his templars, but you would think his captains would take one look at that order and call it stupid, relieve him of command, but no, they were in it for their own power as well and it's the recruits and rank and file kind of had to suffer for it. Same with the mages trapped by Fiona's deal. Both sides kind of had the short end of the stick thanks to their leaders.
Also, I don't know how far others have gotten, but I have met the real Lord Lucius by doing Cassandra's personal quest....
Spoiler
With Cassandra's personal quest, the templar quest, and the mage quest, I think I can safely say that Fiona probably had made the most logical course of action between the two groups, even if her decision was a bad one.
I still sought the support of the mages simply to kick Tevinter out of Ferelden. I was far less than impressed with how they handled their freedom once it was declared.
No one are saying that the Templars are saints. The argument is that the mages have dug their own graves, while the Templars are being buried alive.
I thought they were both pretty epic, with that said, out of the two choices at the end for both you can probably accomplish more for mages in the grand scheme of things if you go with templars and make a particular choice.
what choice is this?
No one are saying that the Templars are saints. The argument is that the mages have dug their own graves, while the Templars are being buried alive.
The same can be said of both sides. Lucius is burying the templars alive with his decisions, and he did willingly and knowingly allow an Envy Demon to impersonate him while he works on making more Red Templars elsewhere.
Not to mention that they kidnap an entire mining town on the world map (with a frozen river, can't recall the name) and are forcing them to take Red Lyrium and join them, or become monsters working for them.
The templars have Borris, who is an epic and awesome templar we get to know. The mages have Felix and Dorian showing another side to Tevinter.
But to me, both sides are overloaded with dirty laundry, and neither is better than the other overall. Fiona's decisions in my mind, while bad, make more logical sense than Lucius'. But the underlings of both sides have it pretty bad.
And I don't buy that the rank and file templars couldn't leave if they wanted to. The Inquisition has templars in its ranks before making the choice (Lysette) and if you talk to that Chantry priest in Val Reyeaux before meeting phantom-Fiona (possibly a Fiona who time travelled) she'll tell us that there are some templars who chose to stay with the chantry and didn't rebel with Lambert and the Seekers, but not enough of them stayed to be called an actual order.
They had choices, just like the mages did.
That's my take at least.
Yeah it is. Especially given the experiments into the power of the blood. The same thing that powers that gives red lyrium it's properties.
And who knows of this power or can even make use of it? The Taint doesn't let a Grey Warden throw people around like action figures or boil their blood. They don't undergo the Joining so they can juice up or overclock their spells or make mindless slaves out of people. The Taint's cancerous, virulent properties are like Red Lyrium (and Red Lyrium is after borne from the same source), but there are reasons why those who turn to Blood Magic and Red Lyrium are regarded the way they are while Grey Wardens are not subject to the same implications.
The argument was that using red lyrium is "mundane blood magic" which it isn't.
It's not literally mundane blood magic, but it is mundane blood magic.
The argument was that using red lyrium is "mundane blood magic" which it isn't. Blood magic has way more drawbacks, uses, and problems. It's a whole different ball game.
Blood Magic may have more uses, but Red Lyrium is exceptionally more dangerous overall. This is a commentary on the material itself, not an attempt to shift blame between blood mages and methheads.
No one are saying that the Templars are saints. The argument is that the mages have dug their own graves, while the Templars are being buried alive.
They made their choice when they followed the orders the traitorous Seekers. They made the choice to give their men the Red Lyrium at said traitors' behest. They made their choice to stay and follow to the redoubt even after observing the behavior of their commander.
Saying that the Templars in general overall, though, would be no less fallacious than thinking the mages in general were cool with aiding Tevinter.
And who knows of this power or can even make use of it? The Taint doesn't let a Grey Warden throw people around like action figures or boil their blood. They don't undergo the Joining so they can juice up or overclock their spells or make mindless slaves out of people. The Taint's cancerous, virulent properties are like Red Lyrium (and Red Lyrium is after borne from the same source), but there are reasons why those who turn to Blood Magic and Red Lyrium are regarded the way they are while Grey Wardens are not subject to the same implications.
Actually, the Taint can do all these things. In the Architect's darkspawn, as I originally said, or in Grey Wardens. People just don't know it. Doesn't really change my point. The Templars didn't know of the side effects to Red Lyrium either.
It's not literally mundane blood magic, but it is mundane blood magic.
Except it's not exclusive to mundanes, and the only thing in common is that they are both dangerous.
Blood Magic may have more uses, but Red Lyrium is exceptionally more dangerous overall. This is a commentary on the material itself, not an attempt to shift blame between blood mages and methheads.
Blood magic is much more dangerous than red lyrium. One definitely invites in demons, who in turn bring more. Blood magic can destroy cities. The closest red lyrium has done to this on it's own is haunt a house. All the things Meredith did, bringing statues to life aside I guess, can be done with blood magic.
They made their choice when they followed the orders the traitorous Seekers. They made the choice to give their men the Red Lyrium at said traitors' behest. They made their choice to stay and follow to the redoubt even after observing the behavior of their commander.
And no one ever said the higher ups had no choice, but the men below need a source of lyrium to function and they will get that nowhere else. It's not as simple as just walking away. Those that survive that would be the exception. And the Seekers had every legal right to Annul the accord, and they had every right to take the Order they started with them. Just as the mages had every right to break away when it was presented to them. Justinia fucked up just as much as the leaders of either faction.
Saying that the Templars in general overall, though, would be no less fallacious than thinking the mages in general were cool with aiding Tevinter.
The mages don't need a mineral to function coherently. They certainly didn't have to let Fiona sell Fereldans to Tevinter, and unlike the Templars, they aren't in some far off remote fortress.
Actually, the Taint can do all these things. In the Architect's darkspawn, as I originally said, or in Grey Wardens. People just don't know it. Doesn't really change my point. The Templars didn't know of the side effects to Red Lyrium either.
Fine.
Except it's not exclusive to mundanes, and the only thing in common is that they are both dangerous.
Aside from using other people to use it for growth, mages are not seen consuming it or using it personally, aside from Cory who is himself a darkspawn. All the writings I have seen of mages encountering the material either leads to them dying or becoming violently ill.
Blood magic is much more dangerous than red lyrium. One definitely invites in demons, who in turn bring more. Blood magic can destroy cities. The closest red lyrium has done to this on it's own is haunt a house. All the things Meredith did, bringing statues to life aside I guess, can be done with blood magic.
Red Lyrium gives those inflicted with it supernatural strength, limited magical powers and homicidal aggression. Unlike Blood Magic, this spreads like a parasitic growth that gives this power and the corruption that follows to nearly every living thing that comes into contact. The growths alone can destroy cities, let alone the creatures it creates.
And no one ever said the higher ups had no choice, but the men below need a source of lyrium to function and they will get that nowhere else.
Except from the Chantry, you mean. Or the Inquisition.
And the Seekers had every legal right to Annul the accord, and they had every right to take the Order they started with them.
While they had the legal right to separate, the Seekers only have as much power over the Templars as the Order will allow them to have. That they would continue to follow the traitors after they turned their backs on the people of Thedas, and after the display at Val Royeaux, is their own fault.
The mages don't need a mineral to function coherently. They certainly didn't have to let Fiona sell Fereldans to Tevinter, and unlike the Templars, they aren't in some far off remote fortress.
The Templar host moved to the remote fortress after Lucius had a Chantry official punched in the face, declared for all to see that he was a megalomaniac, and then announced that they would be leaving the people of Val Royeaux to whatever fate awaited them.
All of this is literally the opposite of the Order is supposed to do.
Aside from using other people to use it for growth, mages are not seen consuming it or using it personally, aside from Cory who is himself a darkspawn. All the writings I have seen of mages encountering the material either leads to them dying or becoming violently ill.
Well yeah, but that wasn't my point. I'm sure that most people who use blood magic aren't trying to become abominations either. The point is they're making use of it in the way they use any other lyrium. Same with the Templars.
Red Lyrium gives those inflicted with it supernatural strength, limited magical powers and homicidal aggression. Unlike Blood Magic, this spreads like a parasitic growth that gives this power and the corruption that follows to nearly every living thing that comes into contact. The growths alone can destroy cities, let alone the creatures it creates.
Blood magic does those things as well. Surely you haven't forgotten Kinloch Hold already?
Except from the Chantry, you mean. Or the Inquisition.
Well yeah. But there are also other reasons why they may remain in the Order. See Ser Barris. They swore an Oath to the Order as much as they did to the Chantry. I'm not excusing it. You know I was originally in favor of culling both. I'm sure there are also reasons for selling out one's people and allies to Tevinter. One is just more sympathetic to me personally.
While they had the legal right to separate, the Seekers only have as much power over the Templars as the Order will allow them to have. That they would continue to follow the traitors after they turned their backs on the people of Thedas, and after the display at Val Royeaux, is their own fault.
As I said, principles. Stupid principles, but principles all the same.
The Templar host moved to the remote fortress after Lucius had a Chantry official punched in the face, declared for all to see that he was a megalomaniac, and then announced that they would be leaving the people of Val Royeaux to whatever fate awaited them.
I doubt most of the Templar Order was at Val Royeaux, and it's obvious that they have serious reservations after the event. I doubt any large amount of time passed between all of these events. There is no just up and leaving.
All of this is literally the opposite of the Order is supposed to do.
They're supposed to guard and protect mages and Thedas against mages. But as they are no longer a part of the Chantry, their leaders decide what they are supposed to do. All the same, they're leaders are dead. So are the mages after siding with them. Fresh starts for everyone.
They made their choice when they followed the orders the traitorous Seekers. They made the choice to give their men the Red Lyrium at said traitors' behest. They made their choice to stay and follow to the redoubt even after observing the behavior of their commander.
Saying that the Templars in general overall, though, would be no less fallacious than thinking the mages in general were cool with aiding Tevinter.
Except that we do not hear about a single mage so unhappy with the arragnement that he wishes to leave, yet is prevented. However, we DO hear about Templars who wished to leave, and what happened to them.
I suggest Templars as their recruitment mission is much more interesting; the difference seems so jarring that I'm wondering if originally the inquisitor was supposed to recruit both factions.
Well yeah, but that wasn't my point. I'm sure that most people who use blood magic aren't trying to become abominations either. The point is they're making use of it in the way they use any other lyrium. Same with the Templars.
They can't make use of it like they can regular Lyrium because they'd die. Their use of the red Lyrium is instead the much more glamorous prospect of force-feeding it to people to provide Cory with more servants.
Blood magic does those things as well. Surely you haven't forgotten Kinloch Hold already?
It doesn't.
Well yeah. But there are also other reasons why they may remain in the Order. See Ser Barris. They swore an Oath to the Order as much as they did to the Chantry. I'm not excusing it. You know I was originally in favor of culling both. I'm sure there are also reasons for selling out one's people and allies to Tevinter. One is just more sympathetic to me personally.
As I said, principles. Stupid principles, but principles all the same.
Misplaced principles can be as dangerous as outright malicious intent. The Seekers in the end are a separate entity from the Order. When they betrayed their purpose, the only obligation the Order had to follow them were the ones they fabricated themselves.
I doubt most of the Templar Order was at Val Royeaux, and it's obvious that they have serious reservations after the event. I doubt any large amount of time passed between all of these events. There is no just up and leaving.
I don't. The Inquisitor still has to travel back to Haven from Val Royeaux just to decide what to do, and from there Josephine has to make the arrangements with the noble houses so that they will all appear at the redoubt.
They're supposed to guard and protect mages and Thedas against mages. But as they are no longer a part of the Chantry, their leaders decide what they are supposed to do.
Which would make them a band of brigands. If they're fine going along with that, I certainly won't spare them any more sympathy than the mages.
Except that we do not hear about a single mage so unhappy with the arragnement that he wishes to leave, yet is prevented. However, we DO hear about Templars who wished to leave, and what happened to them.
The mages were going to be pressed into military service, including the children and those not even fit for combat. Alexius owns them by Tevinter law and aside from that, is looking to build Corypheus an army of mages. He's not going to let them leave.
The mages were going to be pressed into military service, including the children and those not even fit for combat. Alexius owns them by Tevinter law and aside from that, is looking to build Corypheus an army of mages. He's not going to let them leave.
Slaves cannot serve in the Tevinter army. By Tevinter law.
And all you are saying is speculation. I am talking about cold hard facts. We DO NOT hear about any mages, actively seeking to get out. We do hear about the Templars wanting out.
While true, Alexius would eventually brainwash the mages (as evidenced by their presence at the attack at Haven), the mages themselves put them into that situation. They retreated to Redcliffe, they sought the alliance with Tevinter.
The Templars did NOT actively seek an alliance with demons. They were manipulated and mind controlled.
I have played both sides and I like both actually for different reasons. Needless to say, both sides are wrong and I do feel bad for the grunts and little people on both sides due to the idiocy and incompetency of their leaders.
I myself had my Inquisitor make his choice for the mages based on the Templar leader being a dick and then going to Redcliff on fake Fiona's invitation. After that, he decided that he just couldn't leave the mages to the control of the Venatori. He ended up conscripting the mages after that since the mage rebellion had such a weak leader and did so based on their actions at the hinterlands.
Slaves cannot serve in the Tevinter army. By Tevinter law.
And all you are saying is speculation. I am talking about cold hard facts. We DO NOT hear about any mages, actively seeking to get out. We do hear about the Templars wanting out.
While true, Alexius would eventually brainwash the mages (as evidenced by their presence at the attack at Haven), the mages themselves put them into that situation. They retreated to Redcliffe, they sought the alliance with Tevinter.
The Templars did NOT actively seek an alliance with demons. They were manipulated and mind controlled.
They are not slaves, they are indentured servants. Alexius literally says that they will all be placed in the legion, there is no debating this. Also, this agreement with Tevinter was by no means "sought" out by the mages at Redcliffe.
Slaves cannot serve in the Tevinter army. By Tevinter law.
And all you are saying is speculation. I am talking about cold hard facts. We DO NOT hear about any mages, actively seeking to get out. We do hear about the Templars wanting out.
While true, Alexius would eventually brainwash the mages (as evidenced by their presence at the attack at Haven), the mages themselves put them into that situation. They retreated to Redcliffe, they sought the alliance with Tevinter.
The Templars did NOT actively seek an alliance with demons. They were manipulated and mind controlled.
Actually, they didn't seek the alliance with the Venatori. The Venatori came to them at their most desperate time and sent agents ahead of time to convince the rebel mages to side with the Venatori. Essentially, Fiona felt she had no choice but to accept the Venatori's offer (the idiot that she is didn't even consider the Inquisition). Also, you essentially find out what happens to each side without your interference since you can only pick one side. Most of the templars get fooled into taking red lyrium or killed, and the rebel mages get brainwashed if you weren't there to stop the Venatori.
I find it kind of funny because if the Inquisition wasn't around, then both mages and templars would've been on the same side. 
it was due to time travel nothimg makes sense now XDThey are not slaves, they are indentured servants. Alexius literally says that they will all be placed in the legion, there is no debating this. Also, this agreement with Tevinter was by no means "sought" out by the mages at Redcliffe.
They are not slaves, they are indentured servants. Alexius literally says that they will all be placed in the legion, there is no debating this. Also, this agreement with Tevinter was by no means "sought" out by the mages at Redcliffe.
Indentured servitude is basically just voluntary slavery. And the amges were searching for allies, desperately so. And they chose not verify the gift horse was a horse, and took off with an ass. The mages, as a whole, are entirely to blame for the whole they dug themselves into. No one forced them into it, yet they accepted a deal with the devil.
Retour en haut