399 réponses à ce sujet

[raging_monkey]

Think thats called a faustian bargain sahlertz

[EmperorSahlertz]

Think thats called a faustian bargain sahlertz

If you want to be fancy yes.

[Xilizhra]

lol, no it's not. It's terrible. With shitty writing and awful people.Add in time travel and it's reached dumbasfuck status. I wish one mage there, one would actually fight with us against Alexius. But nope. They just bowed down and sold themselves into servitude. Good job. 

Um, you don't actually fight Alexius in the present. After you infiltrate his castle, your spies kill all his guards, and after you escape from the rift, Alexius just surrenders. In the future, all the mages have been either forced into servitude or killed (and Fiona was the latter, as she'd been turned into a red lyrium mine).

[Master Warder Z_]

Barris makes a fine knight commander.

[raging_monkey]

If you want to be fancy yes.

* puts on guady yet apparently fancy hat* i think i will my friend lol

[The Baconer]

Indentured servitude is basically just voluntary slavery.

 

Right, but a technicality that would conveniently juke Tevinter law regarding slaves in the military.

 

 

And the amges were searching for allies, desperately so.

 

The mages were holding up in Redcliffe. There was no searching.

 

Alexius used his time magic to conveniently arrive in the village just in time to save the mages from a manufactured Templar attack. Of course, before he actually "saved" them he gave Fiona a choice. Fiona chose poorly and sold the mages into servitude, just as the Templar commanders chose to follow the traitor Seeker to the redoubt and feed their men corrupted Lyrium.

[sch1986]

I'm playing a mage, actually I aways have, and I tend to choose the mage's side, in this case, however, the decision is not clear because my "advisors" don't actually have anything to advise me about it... I know little about the templars leader and even less about this Fiona (thank you for remind me), aside from the fact that Vivienne mentioned something about her and if I remember well, it was not good, and she didn't seem trustworthy, but the templars leader seemed to be too conceited...

What is this story about the mages allying with the Tevinters? Is that history or you get to know that after you choose the mages? Because I would hate to know I chose the wrong side...

To be honest I never liked the Templars too much, depriving the mages from their freedom (I understand about the danger and all) and at the same time I hated when I chose the mages in DA2 and Orsino went for Blood Mage in the last moment (that ******, I killed him with a smile on my face).

Let's say I'm a mage that agrees with the templars, but I don't think that choosing them would be honest with my "brothers".

Help meeeeeeeee!!

Where he mentions the mages allying with Tevinter -

Minor

Spoiler

he's talking about the mission itself. Fiona agrees to help the Magistrate in Redcliffe. HOWEVER - it was unclear to me whether they honestly chose to ally with Tevinter or if they were under his "mind control".

Also wanted to add that I think in this game the choices you have to make fall into a morally gray area, at least for me. In DA:O mages seemed like the right choice because they were also people who should be free. There are bad humans just as there are bad mages but not all humans are automatically locked up just because they have the potential to be bad.

In DA2 the choice also seemed obvious because the Templars were under an evil knight-commanders orders. Even Cullen says Kirkwall's circle was "brutal".

Now in this game I find myself questioning whether mages are the right choice. After everything they've done with their freedom. The world seems in chaos not only because of

Spoiler

Corypheus

but because of this crazy rebel Mage/Templar war. I sided with the mages out of keeping with previous choices- but I'm beginning to think I would have preferred to side with the Templars if for no other reason to restore some order to the world. ---> this is not a spoiler as I have not seen the ending yet and have not seen any end game spoilers- I am guessing here based on what I've seen so far.

[TobiTobsen]

The problem I had with the two quests was this: The game gives you no urgent reason to go and seek out the Templars.

 

You see them in Val Royeaux, acting all smug, they declare themselves more important than the chantry, and one of them hits a Revered Mother. Not nice, but nothing screams "Oh ****! Better investigate that right now!"

On the mage side you basically get told that Alexius got time travel magic to work, that he already altered time and that this is not really healthy for Thedas.

 

It's not even a question for me what seems more urgent to an ingame Inquisitor, without the knowledge that the player has.

 

In the end, I still sided with the Templars. I simply cannot stand Fiona and Barris is an awesome dude.

 

There is only one question for me: Can I still promote Barris to Knight Commander if I conscript them?

[Boost32]

I have played both sides and I like both actually for different reasons.  Needless to say, both sides are wrong and I do feel bad for the grunts and little people on both sides due to the idiocy and incompetency of their leaders.
 
I myself had my Inquisitor make his choice for the mages based on the Templar leader being a dick and then going to Redcliff on fake Fiona's invitation.  After that, he decided that he just couldn't leave the mages to the control of the Venatori.  He ended up conscripting the mages after that since the mage rebellion had such a weak leader and did so based on their actions at the hinterlands.
 

Spoiler

truth be told, I would actually redo that choice and pick the templars if Ser Barris would've survived and if I could've made him the leader of the templars.  I would also just ally with mages as well instead of just conscripting them if I could've just had Fiona replaced as the leader of the rebel mages with someone more competent.

Spoiler

Ser Barris can survive and you can promote him to knight-commander

[Boost32]

The problem I had with the two quests was this: The game gives you no urgent reason to go and seek out the Templars.
 
You see them in Val Royeaux, acting all smug, they declare themselves more important than the chantry, and one of them hits a Revered Mother. Not nice, but nothing screams "Oh ****! Better investigate that right now!"
On the mage side you basically get told that Alexius got time travel magic to work, that he already altered time and that this is not really healthy for Thedas.
 
It's not even a question for me what seems more urgent to an ingame Inquisitor, without the knowledge that the player has.
 
In the end, I still sided with the Templars. I simply cannot stand Fiona and Barris is an awesome dude.
 
There is only one question for me: Can I still promote Barris to Knight Commander if I conscript them?

yes, I did it

[Tevinter Soldier]

Right, but a technicality that would conveniently juke Tevinter law regarding slaves in the military.

 

you realise alexius cult group has nothing to do with the Tevinter army yes?

 

Alexius's group isn't even supported by tevinter, its "conveniently" ignored officially because acting on it supposedly curbs tevinter freedom's and Unofficial because it's causing instability in the south which some tevinter groups are trying to take advantage of.

 

the simple fact is venatori are irrelevant to tevinter proper, he had nothing to do with Tevinters military.

[dragonflight288]

you realise alexius cult group has nothing to do with the Tevinter army yes?

 

Alexius's group isn't even supported by tevinter, its "conveniently" ignored officially because acting on it supposedly curbs tevinter freedom's and Unofficial because it's causing instability in the south which some tevinter groups are trying to take advantage of.

 

the simple fact is venatori are irrelevant to tevinter proper, he had nothing to do with Tevinters military.

 

True.

 

But it's also true that he was conveniently not demoted from Magister until he is captured by the Inquisition. 

 

Dorian says it well, Tevinter doesn't officially support the Venatori, but they won't shed any tears if they succeed at making things difficult for the south. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Alexius used his time magic to conveniently arrive in the village just in time to save the mages from a manufactured Templar attack. Of course, before he actually "saved" them he gave Fiona a choice. Fiona chose poorly and sold the mages into servitude, just as the Templar commanders chose to follow the traitor Seeker to the redoubt and feed their men corrupted Lyrium.

 

That's an awkward equivalence. Fiona knew she was facing a Tevinter Magister with an unknown agenda, and knew she was selling her mages into servitude. The Templars did not know they were following a traitor Seeker who had abandoned their agenda and who would trap and coerce them into eating corrupted Lyrium.

 

If you're going to use things the groups didn't know about, you should just say that the mages chose to join Corypheus and his apocalyptic plot for godhood.

 

Which would be stupid to accuse them of. Because they didn't know about that when they were faced with a choice.

[Xilizhra]

That's an awkward equivalence. Fiona knew she was facing a Tevinter Magister with an unknown agenda, and knew she was selling her mages into servitude. The Templars did not know they were following a traitor Seeker who had abandoned their agenda and who would coerce them into eating corrupted Lyrium.

So... wait, in the three years since Meredith used red lyrium, went crazy, and turned into a statue, in probably the most templar-visible manner imaginable, no one thought that the red stuff would be bad? I haven't played Champions of the Just, but... their actions making sense would be a hard sell for me.

 

In any case, Fiona thought that the choice would only affect her own people; she didn't know that the Venatori would take over Redcliffe.

[The Baconer]

That's an awkward equivalence. Fiona knew she was facing a Tevinter Magister with an unknown agenda, and knew she was selling her mages into servitude. The Templars did not know they were following a traitor Seeker who had abandoned their agenda and who would trap and coerce them into eating corrupted Lyrium.

If you're going to use things the groups didn't know about, you should just say that the mages chose to join Corypheus and his apocalyptic plot for godhood.

Which would be stupid to accuse them of. Because they didn't know about that when they were faced with a choice.

The Seekers are traitors. That Lucius was corrupted beyond that and left a demon to lead in his stead was an unfortunate coincidence that, yes, they had no way of knowing. Of course, said demon literally declared that the Templars would be abandoning the people of Val Royeaux. This is not the Order's mandate.

Beyond that, red Lyrium and it's effects are known (codex), and what it did to Meredith is also known as many witnessed what happened, nearly all of them Templars including her second in command.

The Templars at the redoubt may not have heard of any of this, but it is not an ignorance I will sympathize with.

[Dean_the_Young]

So... wait, in the three years since Meredith used red lyrium, went crazy, and turned into a statue, in probably the most templar-visible manner imaginable, no one thought that the red stuff would be bad? I haven't played Champions of the Just, but... their actions making sense would be a hard sell for me.

 

The Templars didn't know they were going to be fed Red Lyrium when they chose to follow the Seeker. By the time Red Lyrium was presented towards them, the ones not in on the plot were already trapped, physically or under demonic influence.

 

 

 

In any case, Fiona thought that the choice would only affect her own people; she didn't know that the Venatori would take over Redcliffe.

 

 

And?

 

No, seriously. What's the relevance to what you quoted? Fiona's wisdom in accepting (and any attempts in dodging responsibility for) an obviously misleading deal aside, the Venatori takeover of Redcliffe is irrelevant to comparing the choice Fiona was faced with and how Baconer framed the choice the Templars faced.

 

I mean, we could bring up the mages choice in standing by and accepting the Venatori takeover of Redcliffe. That was a choice. But reframing the mage choice to another point doesn't change the flaws in the Templar comparison.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Seekers are traitors. That Lucius was corrupted beyond that and left a demon to lead in his stead was an unfortunate coincidence that, yes, they had no way of knowing.
 

 

Saying the Seekers are traitors is irrelevant to framing the choices of the Templars unless they knew the Seekers were traitors.

(In this context, 'traitor' would be referring to betraying the perceived Seeker/Templar cause of suppressing the mage rebellion, not in annuling the Nevarran Accord and leaving the Chantry.)
 

 

Of course, said demon literally declared that the Templars would be abandoning the people of Val Royeaux. This is not the Order's mandate.

 

Neither is staying to protect the people of Val Royeaux. The Templars are not an Orlesian security force to protect the Queen's capital.

 

 

Beyond that, red Lyrium and it's effects are known (codex), and what it did to Meredith is also known as many witnessed what happened, nearly all of them Templars including her second in command.

 

 

Where is it indicated that the Templars knew that the Seekers intended to feed them red lyrium?

 

The Templars at the redoubt may not have heard of any of this, but it is not an ignorance I will sympathize with.

 

Your sympathy is irrelevant. The facts known or which could have been reasonably known to the Templars at the time are.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

In any case, Fiona thought that the choice would only affect her own people; she didn't know that the Venatori would take over Redcliffe.

She knew that they were Tevinter Magisters. And she knew or should have known that that life is impossible to survive without cunning, power, and at least some degree of amorality. That in and of itself should have made her unwilling to deal with them unless either she was in a Godzilla Threshold situation (which her alliance with the Ferelden Monarch means hadn't arrived just yet) or her free will was compromised. (Which I will not rule out.)

[raging_monkey]

Time travel solves all of these mage issues lol

[CreepingShadow]

Mages all the way! You already have plenty of troops a pack of superhumans is a lot more useful. And yes while Fiona may be a moron she was only trying to protect her own, and she alone made the choice to side with the Venatori her entire group shouldn't suffer for it.

[crislevin2014]

I sided with mages so I can meet Dorian earlier, and so I don't have to deal with too many ranged fighters later on.

 

Honestly, its a game, and two options are equally good/bad morally, I don't get the fuss about it. If you must, save the game and try both.

[dragonflight288]

For me, even though the templars did not know they were going to be fed Red Lyrium, they knew they were abandoning the mandate on what the Order stands for. They willfully abandoned the Chantry beforehand, and they freely and willingly left Val Royeaux, the Chantry, and all the people they swore an oath to protect to follow the Seekers, who themselves betrayed their oaths. 

 

No matter how it's spun, I simply do not buy that the templars ignorance makes them less to blame for the chaos than the mages, even though we get to know the awesome templar Borris and wipe out the corrupt leaders if we recruit the templars, they still had choices and enough information to go on.

 

I mean, Lysette and a few other templars joined the Inquisition, never once joined up with Lucius. That Grand Cleric in Val Royeaux tells us after she gets decked in the face by a templar that some templars chose to stay with the Chantry, but not enough to call them an order, just like some mages chose to stay with Vivienne. 

 

To me, both sides rank and file had enough information to know that what their leaders were calling for or deciding was not in Thedas', or even their own best interests, and the leaders on both sides really make things worse. 

 

It is ironic that if the Inquisitor had done nothing, the war would have been over and the mages/templars would have been united/brainwashed into serving the Elder One. 

 

Each side has their faults, and each one was really making things worse. 

[The Baconer]

Saying the Seekers are traitors is irrelevant to framing the choices of the Templars unless they knew the Seekers were traitors.

(In this context, 'traitor' would be referring to betraying the perceived Seeker/Templar cause of suppressing the mage rebellion, not in annuling the Nevarran Accord and leaving the Chantry.)

 

"Traitor" referring to their mishandling of the war, and then mysteriously abandoning the conflict altogether, with the remaining Seeker being an outspoken lunatic.

 

 

Neither is staying to protect the people of Val Royeaux. The Templars are not an Orlesian security force to protect the Queen's capital.

 

They are to protect the people of the the capital and beyond, contain the rebel mages, and combat demons. All of these duties are abandoned in the withdrawal to Therinfal.

 

 

Where is it indicated that the Templars knew that the Seekers intended to feed them red lyrium?

 

Probably when Lucius told them to distribute red Lyrium to their men. Or when these commanding officers then consumed red Lyrium in front of their men in order to demonstrate its "safety".

 

 

Your sympathy is irrelevant. The facts known or which could have been reasonably known to the Templars at the time are.

 

And these just happen to be facts which could have been (and should have been) known.

[Dean_the_Young]

"Traitor" referring to their mishandling of the war, and then mysteriously abandoning the conflict altogether, with the remaining Seeker being an outspoken lunatic.

 

 

So an irrelevant perjorative to the choice that faced the Templars at the time.

 

Got it.

 

 

They are to protect the people of the the capital and beyond, contain the rebel mages, and combat demons. All of these duties are abandoned in the withdrawal to Therinfal.

 

Show me where it says that in the order's mandate.

 

Probably when Lucius told them to distribute red Lyrium to their men. Or when these commanding officers then consumed red Lyrium in front of their men in order to demonstrate its "safety".

 

 

So this is, in fact, after they choice posed to them before departing the capital to follow a person they did not know was deliberately deceiving them?

 

And these just happen to be facts which could have been (and should have been) known.

 

 

Which of the Templars could reasonably have been expected to know that their Seeker leaders were intending to brainwash them for Corypheus?

[The Baconer]

So an irrelevant perjorative to the choice that faced the Templars at the time.

 

The Seekers going AWOL is not a pejorative, and neither is Lucius' dereliction of duty.

 

 

Show me where it says that in the order's mandate.

 

From the glittering White Spire in Val Royeaux the Knight-Vigilant commands the templars to serve the Maker’s will and keep the peace. By the common folk they are seen as self-sacrificing men and women, vigilant warriors that form the first line of defense between humanity and the chaos that once ruled the land during the old Imperium.

 

[...]the templars are uniquely qualified to act as both a foil for apostates - mages who refuse to submit to the authority of the Circle - and a first line of defense against the dark powers of blood mages and abominations.

 

The primary focus of the Templars is to restrict the use of magic.

 

 

So this is, in fact, after they choice posed to them before departing the capital to follow a person they did not know was deliberately deceiving them?

 

Yes. Of course, their eventual corruption wouldn't be possible if they were not complicit in the consumption of the red Lyrium and the following distribution of red Lyrium among their ranks. 

 

 

Which of the Templars could reasonably have been expected to know that their Seeker leaders were intending to brainwash them for Corypheus?

 

You're moving the goalposts from knowledge of Red Lyrium to knowledge of Corypheus, then?