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Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as if fan reaction towards Dragon Age: Inquisition has been disappointment. What are your thoughts?


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#401
Qis

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Sure. As long as they're not cramming the cheese down your throat, it's irrational for you to be upset by their preference for cheese. "Phobia" is not precisely the right word for the emotional state, perhaps, but it does convey the irrationality.

 

 

If the mere existence of people who enjoy eating cheese with other consenting adults upsets you, then yes, I would say so. As long as nobody is making you eat cheese, what possible reason is there to care about other people doing so?

 

They know you upset seeing them eating cheese, but they insist eating cheese in front of you, they don't respect you by eating cheese in front of you....so when you express your freedom to ask them not to eat cheese in front of you, they deny your freedom of expression and calling you cheesephobic...they also deny your freedom of speech...


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#402
Ferretinabun

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Dorian was a bland token minority, bull was obsessed with sex. I don't think he had much banter that wasn't sex or killing.

To be honest I'm not too sure what's different between bull and zev but something is. >.>

 

The trouble with figures from minority groups is that every tiny aspect of their personalities is loaded with so much baggage and meaning. It's far too easy to overreact.

 

The Iron Bull was one-of-the-lads fighter who was confident, sexual and had a 'free love' philosophy. Dorian was an upper-class charmer (your mileage may vary) with issues about his family not accepting his sexuality. Josephine was a sweet, refined diplomat with a taste for lavish things and was probably the most romantic romanceable character. Sera was a roguish rebel with a thorough disdain for rules, laws and the upper classes.

 

In all, they were a pretty mixed bag, and there's nothing there that's terribly insulting. They were as deep and three-dimensional as the straight-romance NPCs, and - and this is important - their romance arcs were treated with the same amount of screen-time, seriousness and respect. I don't see how Bioware could have done better than they did, and I certainly didn't find the gay romances insulting.


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#403
bEVEsthda

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I know some people love the game, but the general attitude on here has been very mixed. If I'm being honest I've see a lot more who are disappointed than people who are pleased. It seems as if Bioware was aiming very high with this game, but fell completely short to a lot of you. So many people on here have been voicing their displeasure, and those who bother to give their own personal score of the game have been giving 6 and 7s. Seemingly low for a game of this budget and scale.

For those reasons, despite my personal feelings on the game, I feel like I have to acknowledge that it's critical and commercial success aside, Dragon Age: Inquisition seems to have been another disappointment to the fans. Some thought that this would end up being Bioware's big comeback. The game that would be measured up against the quality of games like DA:O or ME2, and most would agree it's as good as those titles. But as of right now it doesn't seem so.

 

So many questions have flooded my mind from this, I have to get them out there:

 

1. 6-12 months down the line will DA:I be viewed in a more positive or negative light? Will those who were harsh on the game gain more of an appreciation for it, or vise versa?

 

2. For those who don't like the game or were really disappointed, what's your attitude towards Bioware and the Dragon Age series at this point in time? Are you no longer a fan? Are you giving up on it? Do you have low expectations for it's future?

 

3. Are a lot of fans really disappointed with the game, or is this the voices of a few being really loud? When the dust settles, will there be a lot more positivity towards this game a few weeks from now?

 

I don't think DA:Inquisition will ever be recognized as one of the true great games, like BG2, Morrowind, DA:O, FO:3.

Because - I guess mainly because it's not - it lacks a soul, and it lacks some kind of cohesiveness. It doesn't know what kind of game it is. The latter fact is paradoxically a source of its qualities, because it mixes what turns out to be very good gameplay values with some  bad gameplay values, and the gamer has some freedom in focusing on what is enjoyable.

 

I believe the major problem for DA:I is that it didn't turn out to be anything like the game "the fans" wanted. It's not a lack of qualities in DA:I itself, rather that it's the wrong game. The fault of all this is DA:2 and the 'new direction' adopted with it. The new direction was just the usual insane, retarded and insulting EA-marketing workover. I'll leave it at that. Unfortunately, the developer leadership was and is fully on-board, fully invested in that. Those who weren't, left.

 

This meant that during the turmoil following in the wake of DA2, Bioware made up a collection of reasons to not listen to the important criticism against DA2. I'd say the important criticism was coming from those who hated DA2. Wouldn't you? People, former fans of DA, hating DA2 was after all the reason it failed. But instead, Bioware only listened to the criticism coming from - or being shared by - those who liked DA2. Contrary to the lip-service, DA:I is not a mix of the best features from DA:O and DA2. It's fully DA2, none of DA:O. But an improved DA2. And because of the insecurity following the deep gut-knowledge of being wrong but still obstinately wanting to prove to be right, and a terrible need to succeed this time, they also threw everything but the kitchen sink at it. In particular they were impressed by Skyrim's market success. And since EA's marketing hugely believes in making soulless&clueless imitations of other's successes, this solved much of getting the DA:I efforts budgeted.

 

1: I think it will go both ways. Those who can look past their DA:O grudges will discover that DA:I is an enjoyable game. Quite worth the investment in money and time to play. There is also the thing that DA:I can be played in several ways, with different focus.

On the other hand, I also think that those who thought that it was one of the all time brilliant games and marked a return of Bioware to old form, will moderate those sentiments somewhat. Still a good, massive game. But maybe a bit soulless and not quite the way we want either DA or Bioware to go.

 

2: Personally, I like DA:I. I really do. But yes, I'm still disappointed. It's maybe the wrong word, since I didn't expect much from DA:I. In fact, DA:I exceeds my expectations. Considerably even. It's more that I have given up on Bioware. They'll probably make games I'll buy, and they'll make good games. But I have this feeling they have lost the magic. They have been thoroughly EA'ed and like all their predecessors they will never be a truly great developer again.

No, I do no longer consider myself a fan of DA, and I do not consider myself a fan of Bioware. That's done.

But no, I haven't given up on DA. I don't know I'll buy DA4 (I did knew I'd buy DA3/DA:I), but it's at least very likely. I have given up on the "DA" of DA:O though.

 

3: It's the voices of the "few" (I don't really think they're so few though), those in different camps (both the 'cinematic'-addicts and the DA:O bitterenders) who feel DA:I has changed its character too much. But those voices do unfortunately affect sales unproportionally much. This is why you should never change the character of a franchise. Look at FO3, for example. Such a brilliant game! And so much time passed since FO2. And still the FO-FO2 fans spread their poison. In the case of FO3, enough time had passed, it was so obviously brilliant in its own, and Bethesda had built a following of its own, so in the end they didn't do so much damage. But you can count on that they did some damage, and still do. And few games have that sort of strength...

 

... - Oh my G! This is a necro'd thread. Okay, but since I made the effort to write it, you can have it.


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#404
Andraste_Reborn

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They know you upset seeing them eating cheese, but they insist eating cheese infront of you, they don't respect you by eating cheese infront of you....so when you express your freedom to ask them not to eat cheese infront of you, they deny your freedom of expression and calling you cheesephobic...they also deny your freedom of speech...

 

But if you're allowed to eat ... I don't know, ham? Is ham a good metaphor for heterosexuality here? ... in front of people every day without anyone batting an eyelash, why are other people not allowed to eat cheese in public? Why is what icks you out somehow the base standard of public decency?

 

Freedom of speech is not freedom from people disagreeing with what you say.


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#405
Iakus

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But if you're allowed to eat ... I don't know, ham? Is ham a good metaphor for heterosexuality here? ... in front of people every day without anyone batting an eyelash, why are other people not allowed to eat cheese in public? Why is what icks you out somehow the base standard of public decency?

 

Freedom of speech is not freedom from people disagreeing with what you say.

Eating a lot of ham in front of an audience can be in bad taste too.  People should always be aware of the comfort level of those around them, and not stuff themselves with too much ham or cheese (or ham and cheese sandwiches for that matter) in places where public eating may be inappropriate.  Public decency aside, It's simply common courtesy.

 

That that one shouldn't eat in public at all mind you.  But keep it to nibbles.  Not a full meal.

 

Okay I've run out of food analogies   :D


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#406
vbibbi

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Dorian was a bland token minority, bull was obsessed with sex. I don't think he had much banter that wasn't sex or killing.

To be honest I'm not too sure what's different between bull and zev but something is. >.>

I agree to the extent that the s/s LIs fall into similar archetypes that Bio has used in the past, but not that it's particularly insulting to players who want s/s romance. I can loosely see Bull and Josephine mimicking Isabella and Merrill: both are nominally bisexual (or pansexual in Bull's case) and one of them is the sex obsessed confident one and the other is the shyer, more romantic one whose sexuality is not overtly stated but merely part of their character.

 

I do feel Dorian is defined a bit too much by his sexuality, and much of his characterization seems to rely on it, unfortunately. That doesn't mean overall he's a bad character, he has other aspects to him. The romance did feel directly imported from modern day, though, with angst about gay male relationships, which is fairly jarring when all other romances in the DA series haven't focused on the role of sex and gender in Thedas.

 

Sera really doesn't feel defined by her sexuality at all, which is a nice change. It's part of her but has nothing to do with her actual personal quest or character development. And it's better treated than Josephine, who gives no indication of sexuality at all so the PC must do all of the pursuing, regardless of sex. For her, we could remove the f/f romance and she wouldn't feel any different. It would be noticeable if we removed Sera's s/s romance, even though she's not defined by it.

 

I don't think DA:Inquisition will ever be recognized as one of the true great games, like BG2, Morrowind, DA:O, FO:3.

Because - I guess mainly because it's not - it lacks a soul, and it lacks some kind of cohesiveness. It doesn't know what kind of game it is. The latter fact is paradoxically a source of its qualities, because it mixes what turns out to be very good gameplay values with some  bad gameplay values, and the gamer has some freedom in focusing on what is enjoyable.

 

I believe the major problem for DA:I is that it didn't turn out to be anything like the game "the fans" wanted. It's not a lack of qualities in DA:I itself, rather that it's the wrong game. The fault of all this is DA:2 and the 'new direction' adopted with it. The new direction was just the usual insane, retarded and insulting EA-marketing workover. I'll leave it at that. Unfortunately, the developer leadership was and is fully on-board, fully invested in that. Those who weren't, left.

 

This meant that during the turmoil following in the wake of DA2, Bioware made up a collection of reasons to not listen to the important criticism against DA2. I'd say the important criticism was coming from those who hated DA2. Wouldn't you? People, former fans of DA, hating DA2 was after all the reason it failed. But instead, Bioware only listened to the criticism coming from - or being shared by - those who liked DA2. Contrary to the lip-service, DA:I is not a mix of the best features from DA:O and DA2. It's fully DA2, none of DA:O. But an improved DA2. And because of the insecurity following the deep gut-knowledge of being wrong but still obstinately wanting to prove to be right, and a terrible need to succeed this time, they also threw everything but the kitchen sink at it. In particular they were impressed by Skyrim's market success. And since EA's marketing hugely believes in making soulless&clueless imitations of other's successes, this solved much of getting the DA:I efforts budgeted.

 

1: I think it will go both ways. Those who can look past their DA:O grudges will discover that DA:I is an enjoyable game. Quite worth the investment in money and time to play. There is also the thing that DA:I can be played in several ways, with different focus.

On the other hand, I also think that those who thought that it was one of the all time brilliant games and marked a return of Bioware to old form, will moderate those sentiments somewhat. Still a good, massive game. But maybe a bit soulless and not quite the way we want either DA or Bioware to go.

 

2: Personally, I like DA:I. I really do. But yes, I'm still disappointed. It's maybe the wrong word, since I didn't expect much from DA:I. In fact, DA:I exceeds my expectations. Considerably even. It's more that I have given up on Bioware. They'll probably make games I'll buy, and they'll make good games. But I have this feeling they have lost the magic. They have been thoroughly EA'ed and like all their predecessors they will never be a truly great developer again.

No, I do no longer consider myself a fan of DA, and I do not consider myself a fan of Bioware. That's done.

But no, I haven't given up on DA. I don't know I'll buy DA4 (I did knew I'd buy DA3/DA:I), but it's at least very likely. I have given up on the "DA" of DA:O though.

 

3: It's the voices of the "few" (I don't really think they're so few though), those in different camps (both the 'cinematic'-addicts and the DA:O bitterenders) who feel DA:I has changed its character too much. But those voices do unfortunately affect sales unproportionally much. This is why you should never change the character of a franchise. Look at FO3, for example. Such a brilliant game! And so much time passed since FO2. And still the FO-FO2 fans spread their poison. In the case of FO3, enough time had passed, it was so obviously brilliant in its own, and Bethesda had built a following of its own, so in the end they didn't do so much damage. But you can count on that they did some damage, and still do. And few games have that sort of strength...

 

... - Oh my G! This is a necro'd thread. Okay, but since I made the effort to write it, you can have it.

I agree with a lot of this, even though I did like DA2. I'm not sure that Bio only took feedback from those who like DA2, since many of its elements didn't carry over (friendship/rivalry, improved tactics, multi stage companion quests, personalized backstory). It felt rather like the art style and combat system was what EA intended for the series, so that was what was kept into DAI regardless of fan feedback. Then they took the most broad aspects from DAO that they could to claim it was similar (larger maps, saving the world plot, multiple backgrounds) while watering them down to Skyrim level.

 

My biggest problem is definitely one of expectations and disappointment. If I had played DAI with never playing another Bioware game, I probably would have liked it well enough but gotten bored quickly. Ironically, since I've played the other games, I gave DAI more of a chance, even though I was more disappointed, and stuck with it in hopes that it would finally click with me.


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#407
Beomer

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I don't think DA:Inquisition will ever be recognized as one of the true great games, like BG2, Morrowind, DA:O, FO:3.

Because - I guess mainly because it's not - it lacks a soul, and it lacks some kind of cohesiveness. It doesn't know what kind of game it is. The latter fact is paradoxically a source of its qualities, because it mixes what turns out to be very good gameplay values with some  bad gameplay values, and the gamer has some freedom in focusing on what is enjoyable.

 

I think this is pretty much the essence of the whole thing. The series started with what I personally believe was a groundbreaking game. A Bioware RPG with modern graphics, fresh story/ IP, amazing characters, amazing writing, deep combat and plenty of content. It excelled in what it wanted to be. A Bioware RPG.

DAI tried to be too many things all at once. It tried to target too large an audience. The writing is still great and so are the characters when you look at it objectively. But IMO that was it. There are better open world games out there. There are games with better 'tactical' as well as 'actiony' combat out there. There are games that have tons more meaningful content.....The game is good in it's own right. But it still pales in the shadow of what it could have been.

And whether it was ever possible or not (according to DG) to make a game like DAO again, and whether or not they will ever actually make another game like that, the potential that the series lost is tragic. And only on BSN I can say this because I know people here feel as strongly as I do.

I hope they make another classic someday.


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#408
bEVEsthda

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DAI tried to be too many things all at once. It tried to target too large an audience. 

 

The thing is that you do not reach a large audience by "targeting a large audience". And I think that DA:O potentially embraced a larger audience than DA:I. What people don't seem to get is that the big successes get their audiences by perseverance. Enthusiastic fans create an awareness around a franchise. This awareness draws more customers to the next sequel. If you screw up and deliver a completely different game - like EA typically prefers to do - you're never going to have a monumental seller.

 

People seem to forget that the first CoD game didn't sell better than DA:O. EA marketing tries to make games into big sellers by remaking them into typical console videogames, the sort of that comes thirteen a dozen. It's a recipe for certain failure.


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#409
AnUnculturedLittlePotato

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I agree to the extent that the s/s LIs fall into similar archetypes that Bio has used in the past, but not that it's particularly insulting to players who want s/s romance. I can loosely see Bull and Josephine mimicking Isabella and Merrill: both are nominally bisexual (or pansexual in Bull's case) and one of them is the sex obsessed confident one and the other is the shyer, more romantic one whose sexuality is not overtly stated but merely part of their character.

 

I do feel Dorian is defined a bit too much by his sexuality, and much of his characterization seems to rely on it, unfortunately. That doesn't mean overall he's a bad character, he has other aspects to him. The romance did feel directly imported from modern day, though, with angst about gay male relationships, which is fairly jarring when all other romances in the DA series haven't focused on the role of sex and gender in Thedas.

 

Sera really doesn't feel defined by her sexuality at all, which is a nice change. It's part of her but has nothing to do with her actual personal quest or character development. And it's better treated than Josephine, who gives no indication of sexuality at all so the PC must do all of the pursuing, regardless of sex. For her, we could remove the f/f romance and she wouldn't feel any different. It would be noticeable if we removed Sera's s/s romance, even though she's not defined by it.

 

I mean Dorian would literally not be in the game were he not gay. I GUESS he's better than Steve but not by much. I've actually yet to see anyone recognize that it revolves way too much on his sexuality. I didn't really have a problem with Sera or Josi so I didn't mention them (I just chalk josi's problem up to her being an adviser)

What exactly is Dorian if not a gay stereotype with a god awful mustache?



#410
AlanC9

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They know you upset seeing them eating cheese, but they insist eating cheese infront of you, they don't respect you by eating cheese infront of you....so when you express your freedom to ask them not to eat cheese infront of you, they deny your freedom of expression and calling you cheesephobic...they also deny your freedom of speech...

You do realize how crazy this sounds, right?

If you're in a restaurant, you don't have veto power over what other people order. Nor should you. Your options are to deal with it, or go home and enjoy a cheese-free meal. Edit: Or go to a type of restaurant where you're unlikely to encounter cheese; sushi, for instance.

I can think of plenty of situations where nobody should be eating anything at all, but I can't think of one where it's OK to eat anything except cheese.
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#411
AlanC9

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I mean Dorian would literally not be in the game were he not gay.


Sure he would. Someone has to cover the Necromancer spec and the Tevinter background.

#412
Iakus

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I mean Dorian would literally not be in the game were he not gay.

Wat?   :blink:



#413
AnUnculturedLittlePotato

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Wat?   :blink:

 

Sure he would. Someone has to cover the Necromancer spec and the Tevinter background.

Oh? My understanding is that part of why he left the tevinter imperium is that he was a social pariah due to not being willing to uphold a legacy. The other part was corphy and his old master. Even were that wrong Dorian's identity revolves so much around him being gay that were he not gay there'd be little else of any "dorian" left.



#414
Iakus

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Oh? My understanding is that part of why he left the tevinter imperium is that he was a social pariah due to not being willing to uphold a legacy. The other part was corphy and his old master. Even were that wrong Dorian's identity revolves so much around him being gay that were he not gay there'd be little else of any "dorian" left.

Except for, you know, the Dorian who deplores how far Tevinter has sunk.  It's obsession with past glories.  The scheming rivaled only by Orlais' Game.  The blood magic.  The obsession with bloodlines and mage eugenics.  And so on.  Those things made him a pariah

 

Being gay is only a tiny part of that.


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#415
MattH

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I've grown to love it over time. There is a lot I'd change, but the foundation of a great game is there.

#416
AlanC9

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Oh? My understanding is that part of why he left the tevinter imperium is that he was a social pariah due to not being willing to uphold a legacy. The other part was corphy and his old master. Even were that wrong Dorian's identity revolves so much around him being gay that were he not gay there'd be little else of any "dorian" left.


Iakus took care of the substance here. I'll just point out that the italed doesn't have anything to do with being gay -- it would be trivial to change the specifics.
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#417
Donquijote and 59 others

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One of its flaw was probably the forced implementation of old and optional characters that ultimately we're just used for a small variance in the same quest.


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#418
Anvos

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Dorian left Tevintar because he was following both a friend and former mentor who he felt were up to something bad after joining the Venatori.

 

His issues with his father was why he was estranged from his family.  Though I got the impression from some codexes that Tevintar doesn't so much care if your otherwise sexually interested as long as its not publicly, Dorian's situation is a bit more complicated since being a noble mage that also comes with certain expectations to the family and nation to produce an heir.

 

As for the thread I'd say not a disappointment but still short of DAO though far closer than DA2 was where you have to consider DA2 as a stand alone product to not be a disappointment.  Sadly however it appears EA wants to repeat some of DA2's disappointment in ME:A by keeping with thinking we only care about the pc being human.



#419
Qis

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But if you're allowed to eat ... I don't know, ham? Is ham a good metaphor for heterosexuality here? ... in front of people every day without anyone batting an eyelash, why are other people not allowed to eat cheese in public? Why is what icks you out somehow the base standard of public decency?

 

Freedom of speech is not freedom from people disagreeing with what you say.

 

But if there are people who uneasy seeing people enjoying ham, it is better not to eat ham in front of them, you still can eat ham at any time and any where...there are people who don't eat ham such as Muslims and vegetarians. Some maybe don't mind you eat ham in front of them, some may take it sensitrively. Just because you can eat ham and it is your right, it doesn't mean you have to disrespect others who is uneasy with what you think it is okay, you don't loose here, you still can eat ham behind them...

 

 

You do realize how crazy this sounds, right?

If you're in a restaurant, you don't have veto power over what other people order. Nor should you. Your options are to deal with it, or go home and enjoy a cheese-free meal. Edit: Or go to a type of restaurant where you're unlikely to encounter cheese; sushi, for instance.

I can think of plenty of situations where nobody should be eating anything at all, but I can't think of one where it's OK to eat anything except cheese.

 

In this case, the one who is cheesephobic shouldn't be in a restaurant that clearly sell cheese foods. If they make a noise you can tell them to get out.  But if you have a friend who is cheesephobic surely you don't bring your cheesephobic friend into cheese restaurant isn't it?

 

You know your friend don't eat cheese and vomit smelling cheese but you insist because it is your right, it is your privilege and you told your cheesephobic friend to shut up and seeing you eating cheese



#420
Legion of 1337

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The main game is full of pointless levels, a cacophony of pointless fetch quests, and the story completely falls apart after Hallamshiral.

 

In order to get a good ending, I have to pay EA more money to get Trespasser.

 

I absolutely, 100% REFUSE to do that.

 

I am dismayed there wasn't an ME3-style uproar at the fact EA basically sells the ending of the game for $15; I should GET THE ****** ENDING with the actual game. This extra charging for plot-critical elements has just gotten progressively worse and worse until now, where the ending is being held hostage behind a paywall and if you don't pay it you can't finish the story. This is absolute horseshit. I'm not buying it, and I'm not buying the next Dragon Age. I'm probably not getting the next Mass Effect either. EA just keeps destroying everything they own, it's sickening.


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#421
OldSwede

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But if there are people who uneasy seeing people enjoying ham, it is better not to eat ham in front of them, you still can eat ham at any time and any where...there are people who don't eat ham such as Muslims and vegetarians. Some maybe don't mind you eat ham in front of them, some may take it sensitrively. Just because you can eat ham and it is your right, it doesn't mean you have to disrespect others who is uneasy with what you think it is okay, you don't loose here, you still can eat ham behind them...

 

 

 

In this case, the one who is cheesephobic shouldn't be in a restaurant that clearly sell cheese foods. If they make a noise you can tell them to get out.  But if you have a friend who is cheesephobic surely you don't bring your cheesephobic friend into cheese restaurant isn't it?

 

You know your friend don't eat cheese and vomit smelling cheese but you insist because it is your right, it is your privilege and you told your cheesephobic friend to shut up and seeing you eating cheese

 

Apologise for my interuption here, I'm just trying to understand (I haven't read the whole thread, since I have yet to play the Trespasser DLC and trying to avoid spoilers) ;)

 

I have two questions.

 

Do you feel disrespected?

Has anyone forced you to watch while they've been eating cheese (or ham, or both)?

 

As for the game, I can't see that being forced upon me - if that is what you are talking about, but I might very well be wrong (which wouldn't surprise me).

 

Edit: My confusion lies in whether you feel that in the game, or here on the forums (as I haven't followed the forums).


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#422
Qis

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Do you feel disrespected?

Has anyone forced you to watch while they've been eating cheese (or ham, or both)?

 

Yes

Yes



#423
OldSwede

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Yes

Yes

 

Thanks for a quick reply!  I am ..slow, so I edited my post, but I can ask you here now then.

 

Is that In game, or here on the forums? (that's the part that had me confused)



#424
Qis

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Thanks for a quick reply!  I am ..slow, so I edited my post, but I can ask you here now then.

 

Is that In game, or here on the forums? (that's the part that had me confused)

 

No, it's somewhere else, no need to be confused :D

 

You see, i just asked to not call anyone who disliking homosexuality/homosexualism as homophobic, but i being harrassed for asking such thing as if i am guilty of something...



#425
Darkly Tranquil

Darkly Tranquil
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And whether it was ever possible or not (according to DG) to make a game like DAO again, and whether or not they will ever actually make another game like that, the potential that the series lost is tragic. And only on BSN I can say this because I know people here feel as strongly as I do.
I hope they make another classic someday.


It's not at all likely, because the AAA publishers think that complex CRPGs don't sell. That's exactly what Obsidian said when they did their Kickstarter campaign for Pillars of Eternity; no publisher was interested in funding the game's development, so they had to go direct to the audience to find the funding to make the game. It's sad to say, but the future of hardcore CRPGs seems to be in the indie scene.
  • Iakus aime ceci