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Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as if fan reaction towards Dragon Age: Inquisition has been disappointment. What are your thoughts?


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#526
Lebanese Dude

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Personally, I'd say the lore which is likely why I thought Dragon Age: Inquisition felt like a Dragon Age game but as it often is with such things, others will disagree and cite other elements that they consider to be the definitive element.
 

 

The irony being that Dragon Age Inqusiition:

 

  1. contained more lore and advanced the overarching narrative plot more than DAO and DA2 combined
  2. allowed the player to significantly alter the setting of Thedas in a much more impactful manner than DAO and definitely DA2.
  3. let the player experience for themselves the world that has so far only been shown to us in morsels. You get to see wtf people have been talking about
  4. provided different viewpoints for the various cultures described to us in the past. Think Sten vs Iron Bull.
  5. resolved the majority of loose strings from the previous two games and provided context for what they are doing, from Morrigan and the HoF to Hawke and Bianca.

etc...

 

Regarding some posts that mention DAI's fantasy tone... it's as if those people have not played DAI at all.

 

Dragon Age was never about blights. It was never about mages and templars. All these things? They're the result of the machinations of the Elves, particularly Solas.

 

All the **** that happened in DAI? Elven magic. The corruption's spread? Elven in origin. The veil? Elven.  The rifts? Elven.  Demons? linked to Elves.

 

The world WAS high fantasy. It is no longer, much to Morrigan's chagrin. Oh but we're heading there alright if Solas has anything to say about it.

 

DAO was only the ****** prologue. DA2 was the introduction to the political turmoil. DAI was the start of the actual plot of the overarching narrative.
 


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#527
Big Magnet

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DAO was only the ****** prologue. DA2 was the introduction to the political turmoil. DAI was the start of the actual plot of the overarching narrative.

 

No. DA:O was the start of something epic that was successful enough to warrant a sequel, DA2 was a cash cow and DA:I was an attempt (albeit a very good one) to save the series.


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#528
Lebanese Dude

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No. DA:O was the start of something epic, DA2 was a cash cow and DA:I was an attempt (albeit a very good one) to save the series.

 

Start of what exactly? The whole game revolves around the archdemon. You kill him. What's left? Killing darkspawn? DAI is where the real Thedas plot begins.

 

The story of Dragon Age has already been written. DA2 was supposed to be much different but they ended up disjointing the paths of a particular protagonist into Hawke and the Inquisitor. I don't know the details, but it's known.

 

If you want to be cynical about the products, go crazy, just don't extend that to the intentions of the creative department.


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#529
Lebanese Dude

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I wonder if people actually think the writers wing it from game to game....


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#530
mgagne

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I wonder if people actually think the writers wing it from game to game....

 

 

 

You don't think so?  Because it certainly feels like it - especially since Gaider was replaced as lead writer/conceptor.  Oh look!  Shinies ahead!  The Sheeple want more MMO shiite?  Let's give it to them!  They want more obvious consolitis symptoms?  Let's give them that too!  Why?  So they will spend more $caSh$ obviously!  They're willing - hell! have been long conditioned to desire - to swallow slop?  Let's cook them a vast pot of it - and hide the bad taste with sweet flavor - someone's fiscal year end bonus will only get bigger as a result...  But that's how they think to keep us in line is it?  Create a need/induce a desire - then threaten to withhold the fix until we relent and spend more money - money that makes them richer while leaving the rest of us dissatisfied.  And so far it works!  That's most depressing part... 

 

Consider the endless discussions about Solas' betrayal since Trespasser came out - the hook has sunk deep and they'll be reeling us in for the next 2-3 years - until we dole out the necessary money to get some sort of resolution.  <_<



#531
Lebanese Dude

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You don't think so?  Because it certainly feels like it - especially since Gaider was replaced as lead writer/conceptor.  Oh look!  Shinies ahead!  The Sheeple want more MMO shiite?  Let's give it to them!  They want more obvious consolitis symptoms?  Let's give them that too!  Why?  So they will spend more $caSh$ obviously!  They're willing - hell! have been long conditioned to desire - to swallow slop?  Let's cook them a vast pot of it - and hide the bad taste with sweet flavor - someone's fiscal year end bonus will only get bigger as a result...  But that's how they think to keep us in line is it?  Create a need/induce a desire - then threaten to withhold the fix until we relent and spend more money - money that makes them richer while leaving the rest of us dissatisfied.  And so far it works!  That's most depressing part... 

 

Consider the endless discussions about Solas' betrayal since Trespasser came out - the hook has sunk deep and they'll be reeling us in for the next 2-3 years - until we dole out the necessary money to get some sort of resolution.  <_<

 

Alright first of all don't list your qualms with gameplay. They are irrelevant to the overall plot that's being discussed.

 

Second of all, you seem to be operating under the false assumption that gaming companies create these games for charity.

 

They are businesses, so no ****** **** they want to make products that are interesting enough to keep us hooked. 

 

It doesn't mean that the creative department doesn't enjoy making stories and seeing their fans experience them.

 

The overall plot has been written. The intricacies are always in flux and nothing is permanently set in stone. I have faith in Patrick Weekes.


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#532
AlanC9

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I wonder if people actually think the writers wing it from game to game....


ME might have given people that impression.

#533
Lebanese Dude

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ME might have given people that impression.

 

I assume you're talking about the ending?
 

Saren was the poster boy for Synthesis since the beginning. Your entire focus has been Destroy. Illusive Man was always out for Control. The Citadel has been a focal point of the series.

 

That should make it obvious that the overarching plot was known from the beginning, and not written in the final hours of development.

 

As always, delivery is in flux. Sometimes ideas that seemed good at the time become bad later on. I assume that's what happened with the Dark Energy plot, although there could be a slew of other reasons.

 

Still I see where the perception may come from.



#534
AFA

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The irony being that Dragon Age Inqusiition:

 

  1. contained more lore and advanced the overarching narrative plot more than DAO and DA2 combined
  2. allowed the player to significantly alter the setting of Thedas in a much more impactful manner than DAO and definitely DA2.
  3. let the player experience for themselves the world that has so far only been shown to us in morsels. You get to see wtf people have been talking about
  4. provided different viewpoints for the various cultures described to us in the past. Think Sten vs Iron Bull.
  5. resolved the majority of loose strings from the previous two games and provided context for what they are doing, from Morrigan and the HoF to Hawke and Bianca.

etc...

 

Regarding some posts that mention DAI's fantasy tone... it's as if those people have not played DAI at all.

 

Dragon Age was never about blights. It was never about mages and templars. All these things? They're the result of the machinations of the Elves, particularly Solas.

 

All the **** that happened in DAI? Elven magic. The corruption's spread? Elven in origin. The veil? Elven.  The rifts? Elven.  Demons? linked to Elves.

 

The world WAS high fantasy. It is no longer, much to Morrigan's chagrin. Oh but we're heading there alright if Solas has anything to say about it.

 

DAO was only the ****** prologue. DA2 was the introduction to the political turmoil. DAI was the start of the actual plot of the overarching narrative.
 

 

The tone has nothing to do with blights, which was the most hackneyed thing from DAO. The world and societies don't feel the same, the setting lost a lot of color and grime. 

 

I do think that the Mage-Templar War was supposed to be important, but DAI dropped the proverbial bridge on it. I honestly think that they tried to kill anything related to DA2, and that plot line got cut short because of it. It ended up being so unimportant to the story that you don't even get a rebel mage companion or adviser (no risk of a new Anders). The civil war between Celine and her cousin was also anti-climactic.   



#535
Lebanese Dude

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The tone has nothing to do with blights, which was the most hackneyed thing from DAO. The world and societies don't feel the same, the setting lost a lot of color and grime. 

 

They don't feel the same because you don't have a superficial viewpoint of them anymore.

 

In DAO you were still a tourist. You were experiencing the world for the first time. That's a wonder in itself.

 

Now you're familiar with it, and you're learning more and more about them. Things tend to lose their luster when the mystery is revealed. The good thing about DAI is that also introduced new mysteries. Aren't you excited to see Tevinter soon?

 

Also I find it funny you mention that the game lost its color, when the ****-brown filter that permeated DAO was removed.

 

 

 

I do think that the Mage-Templar War was supposed to be important, but DAI dropped the proverbial bridge on it. I honestly think that they tried to kill anything related to DA2, and that plot line got cut short because of it. It ended up being so unimportant to the story that you don't even get a rebel mage companion or adviser (no risk of a new Anders). The civil war between Celine and her cousin was also anti-climactic.   

 

Don't dismiss its importance. The Mage/Templar war has a significant effect on the DAI story. They didn't kill anything related to DA2. DA2 was just a relatively self-contained story with one major result which led to the event that started DAI.

 

I see DA2 as the player's closer examination of the tensions between the different factions in Thedas. It served that purpose at least. It was the player's first contact with Qunari society for example. It also highlighted the different facets of the mages and templars. 

 

Also it introduced Corypheus...that's big in itself.

 

----

 

The whole point of the main quests in DAI was that you were always one step behind Corypheus. I'm not sure what you are expecting. Main quests last a few hours at most in all DA games. The Winter Palace was supposed to be the player's first experience in the Game with the setting of an Orlesian ball. I think it worked out wonderfully.


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#536
Addictress

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Honestly I think a major reason why Inquisition suffered was because the Game is one of the weakest, most hackneyed elements of the DA universe. It's like a 10-year-old's dress-up idea of fictional spy and political intrigue. By outright going for nuance, it is comically immature-seeming. And it is because of the game medium itself.

Mage-Templar war somehow feels more simplistic and because it isn't outright going for nuance, it plays out better in the game medium, and achieves better....IDK....narrative tone.
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#537
voteDC

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DAO was only the ****** prologue. DA2 was the introduction to the political turmoil. DAI was the start of the actual plot of the overarching narrative.
 

Part of what I like about Origins is that it is standalone. It could have ended there as everything was wrapped up pretty neatly. Its story ends.

One of the problems for me with Dragon Age II and Inquisition is that they are left open, as you point out to further the narrative in future games in the series. There is no sense of closure to their stories.

 


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#538
AlanC9

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I assume you're talking about the ending?
 
Saren was the poster boy for Synthesis since the beginning. Your entire focus has been Destroy. Illusive Man was always out for Control. The Citadel has been a focal point of the series.
 
That should make it obvious that the overarching plot was known from the beginning, and not written in the final hours of development.


But the devs have said that this was not the process. While I agree that the ending does integrate factors from the whole series, it was constructed by looking back to the earlier games, not as part of an overall vision.
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#539
AlanC9

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Honestly I think a major reason why Inquisition suffered was because the Game is one of the weakest, most hackneyed elements of the DA universe. It's like a 10-year-old's dress-up idea of fictional spy and political intrigue. By outright going for nuance, it is comically immature-seeming. And it is because of the game medium itself.


Hmm... meaning that this can't be done right within the confines of a CRPG? Whenever I think of ways to improve this aspect I start burning through wordcount at an unsustainable pace.

#540
Addictress

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Hmm... meaning that this can't be done right within the confines of a CRPG? Whenever I think of ways to improve this aspect I start burning through wordcount at an unsustainable pace.


It isn't impossible but how RPGs are set up now ... Doesn't properly impress "sophisticated intrigue" on me as it should. Or maybe it's simply the writing, game medium be damned.

Like, by the time Florianne says, "Everyone is alone in the Winter Palace," I rolled my eyes. And everyone standing around with those repeating hand-wave animations and the outlandish French accents.

Not only is it a violent departure from the medieval period I'd grown accustomed to in Origins and DA2, it's a bland declaration of a world element that is rather "telling, not showing."

#541
cindercatz

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Could have been? Perhaps. But they weren't. You seem to be putting a fantasy version of what was possible in DA:O up against the actually existing DA:I, but I might be misreading this.

I see that if you're just talking about enjoying the DA:O tactics because they're fun in themselves rather than because they're really necessart, yeah, that's definitely


That's how I played DA:O, so no fantasy to it. Remember you had a set of preset baseline behaviours. The player defined if-thens were overlays on that, meaning that if any enemy didn't match a prerequisite such as aiming at a particular character and/or being at a certain range, they would revert to the baseline behaviour set. So yes, my tactics were complex. My characters were running all over the place after specific assignments and regrouping and protecting each other all the time, moving in groups, and I never used taunt in DA:O. We had weapon switching, so my characters would pick off rushing enemies and only switch off to melee in range, or only if attacked from short range in Leli's case. Complex behaviour. It's not a foggy recollection; I spent more time on DA:O than any other game, over 1200 hours. I almost never go back and play games twice, but I had my style down to a science.

Could it have been even better in DA:I? Yes, definitely, just look at the new abilities. And yes, because it's a lot more fun, not because it's necessary. I don't believe in only pursuing what's necessary to get by, and obviously they went well beyond the call of duty in other areas. They just made that choice for other reasons. The priority with combat was MP and to promote that extra revenue stream. That needs to change in any future entry. The game is badly hurt by it.

#542
thats1evildude

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Whereas I rarely bothered with weapon switching, only using them one or two times where I needed to use a ranged weapon, and generally kept things pretty simple tactically. Use Pinning Shot on mages, use Stonefist or Dirty Fighting when attacked in melee, use Overpower on frozen enemies, drink a healing potion when your health drops below 25 per cent, always have Shield Wall and Rock Armor running. Bing bang boom, 90 per cent of fights taken care of. So when people talk about the tactical masterpiece that was DAO, I'm like "LOLZ Whatevs."



#543
cindercatz

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I wonder if people actually think the writers wing it from game to game....


Of course they do. There's definitely a plan, but no plan survives the battlefield, right? So, yeah, there are long term goals and all that, but don't forget the whole plan changed at the end of DA:O's development (leading to the departure of its lead designer), and again took a few major turns during and after DA2. They haven't even gotten set on a particular path in pre-developement yet, so far as we know. Things always change. Big secret in life: Everybody's winging it. lol :P

I'm not particularly worried about Gaider leaving or Weekes taking over though. Weekes has done a good job so far, I think. I imagine Gaider's style will be missed, but I don't doubt the writing team's ability. Morrigan's character and her arc are the big thing I hope doesn't get lost. Best character in the series so far.

I was iffy about continuing with the series though up until Trespasser because of all the dead space and gameplay issues. So we'll see.

#544
cindercatz

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Whereas I rarely bothered with weapon switching, only using them one or two times where I needed to use a ranged weapon, and generally kept things pretty simple tactically. Use Pinning Shot on mages, use Stonefist or Dirty Fighting when attacked in melee, use Overpower on frozen enemies, drink a healing potion when your health drops below 25 per cent, always have Shield Wall and Rock Armor running. Bing bang boom, 90 per cent of fights taken care of. So when people talk about the tactical masterpiece that was DAO, I'm like "LOLZ Whatevs."

See, pinning shot on mages is pretty useless though, right? They stand still while casting anyway. My favorite anti-mage tactic was having Dog tackle and maul 'em. :P lol Dog was a pinball, bouncing around with his charge abilities, faster than anything. When I took him with.

But this gets back to my point. I don't care about necessary. I care about fun and interesting. I intentionally stayed away from min/maxing my characters or playing to prescribed roles. I built characters according to my story idea of them, and went to town with tactics. Because that's by far the most fun way to play this series. I can't do that with any other game. That's not generic same 'ol same 'ol, brainless twitch gaming. But now what I loved about the gameplay is gone, and what we've got is mind numbing.

So people are like "whatever". I'm like "why do you even play this game?" Because the only reason I do at this point is that I'm invested in the story and characters to whatever extent left. Like I'm reading a comic series or something.

edit: Pinning shot, that was for melee enemies charging in. :-) Pincushion.

#545
cindercatz

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Hmm... meaning that this can't be done right within the confines of a CRPG? Whenever I think of ways to improve this aspect I start burning through wordcount at an unsustainable pace.


It could be, but it didn't really work the way it was handled, I agree with her there. Not on the specifics exactly, but it was way too polite and... fluffy, and never really deceitful or dangerous. And those are the elements that made it sound interesting in DA:O. It's not the game medium or the rpg genre, it's the lack of seriousness.

#546
VorexRyder

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Why should abilities automatically increase with level ups? Wasn't that one of those MMO mechanics? I think Bio should go back to AD&D and never change attributes without major magical intervention.

No, you increase attributes by spending attribute points, which ought to be separate from your ability points which allow you to unlock new abilities. Apart from there being tomes and potions that grant attribute points in DA:O and DA:II, Increasing an attribute is an abstraction representing your character's physical and mental improvement as they progress throughout their adventure.

 

More STR means that you've gotten stronger from all the fighting and training you've been doing since you began the adventure; CON means that you've got better cardio/stamina and are more physically fit; Cunning means that your mind is sharper, your ability to charm others has improved, and you've gotten trickier; Willpower is your mental fortitude and self-discipline, Magic is how much mana you can hold and channel, and Dexterity is your fine-motor skills, hand-eye coordination, and agility. Not counting Magic, all of these are things people can improve upon through training and experience.

 

This shows how little you understand the Qun.

Krem, if he were of the Qun, would seen as Aqun-Athlok because of his predilection for combat(a "male" job) if Krem were Trans and of the Qun, yet lacked talent in a "male" job, he would be considered a she and either get "re-educated"(brainwashed) or mind-controlled(qamek). Hissrad(Liar) sanitizes some parts of Qunari society to make it sound more appealing and inclusive.

 

In a hypothetical where Krem is still a biologically female man, but isn't good at fighting, the Qun would consider him a woman and assign him a 'woman's' job, they'd only assign him a male job and male identity because he's a good fighter not because he's a man. If Krem were good at artistic pursuits or some manner crafting stuff his trans status would be irrelevant to the Tamassrans, he'd be considered a she by the Qun.

 

The Antaam is a male exclusive role, thus Krem being good at fighting is the reason he would be considered a man in the eyes of the Qun, not because he's Trans but because he's a good warrior. Examples:

"Morrigan: Which? That they fight? Or that they are female? Sten: Either." and also "Sten(to female Warden): I don't understand. You look like a woman." "The Iron Bull: If a qunari women really wants to fight and has a gift for it, she becomes an Aqun-athlok. The Aqun-athlok joins the warriors and is treated as a male. He becomes... a guy, for all intents and purposes. Cassandra: But she wouldn't physically become male, surely! The Iron Bull: Doesn't matter. In the Qun, your role is everything.".

 

On the red part: Bullshit, your feelings  on the matter don't have a strong influence on the Tama's decision. After all, Bull hates killing, as seen in  one of his banters with Cole, and yet both his jobs as a Bennie were those were he would have to kill a lot.

Physical Strength + Mental Acuity = Job were you fight and think a lot, regardless of how you feel about it.

 

I understand the Qun well enough.

 

Yep, it's silly. How would you fix it? Bigger war table drops, or none at all? Or should resources be rarer in the zones?



 

Much bigger war table drops and much rarer resources outside of the Hinterlands, the Inquisition probably needs everyone to help out with the menial tasks due to lack of numbers when they're just starting out, after all. Less dull, and it integrates game-play and story.

 

 

You can mod an equipped item. Just bring up the equipping character, though that is clunky and slow.

Yes, that's kinda the problem. It's a frickin' pain, either way.


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#547
AlanC9

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See, pinning shot on mages is pretty useless though, right? They stand still while casting anyway.


Um... no. They get stuck in the pinning shot animation same as anybody else.

#548
ModernAcademic

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"Morrigan: Which? That they fight? Or that they are female? Sten: Either." and also "Sten(to female Warden): I don't understand. You look like a woman." "The Iron Bull: If a qunari women really wants to fight and has a gift for it, she becomes an Aqun-athlok. The Aqun-athlok joins the warriors and is treated as a male. He becomes... a guy, for all intents and purposes. Cassandra: But she wouldn't physically become male, surely! The Iron Bull: Doesn't matter. In the Qun, your role is everything.".

 

 

So the Qunari can't see what a person does as being something independent of their gender? 

 

There can't be women who fight, who are engineers, who are good at sports, etc? Just as there can't be men who are good at cooking, at dancing ballet, at comforting people?

 

The Qunari still have a lot to learn about the true nature of people.


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#549
AlanC9

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I'm not sure the Qunari are all that interested in the true nature of people.
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#550
AlanC9

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No, you increase attributes by spending attribute points, which ought to be separate from your ability points which allow you to unlock new abilities. Apart from there being tomes and potions that grant attribute points in DA:O and DA:II, Increasing an attribute is an abstraction representing your character's physical and mental improvement as they progress throughout their adventure.

Wait a second... you're giving me a lecture about RPG mechanics? Thanks, but... been there, played that, starting with AD&D in 1979.

I prefer to separate the abstractions from the stats, which I like to be real facts in the game world. A character with Strength 20 can lift X kilograms, and a character with Strength 21 can lift X * 1.05 kilograms, etc. I've never seen any value in using stats at all if they're just abstractions anyway.