934 réponses à ce sujet

[Seraphim24]

Considering that some other old time fans like DAI because they remind them of the past Bioware greatness seen in their older works, my POV is certainly not a unique one. Now, I have not played the BG or FF series, so I cannot personally compare it to them, but I have played NWN1 and most Bioware titles since then, and enjoy them quite a lot.

 

Well that's why I also made this post

 

"To be completely, ultimately fair, however, the notion of a AAA gaming sphere, or one that was pumped rich with graphics and cinematics, features,originated with Bioware. The 100 hour quest-a-thon? That concept originated with Baldur's Gate 1.

 

So when people seem disappointed by Dragon Age Inquisition, or whatever, it seems worthy to ask, what did satisfy you to begin with? As big as the gap is between modern and former Bioware, the style of game they've made isn't fundamentally at it's core so different from what it was before, they were always making a game to fit a huge number of diverse needs, Baldur's Gate 1 had character interactions, open worlds, a set story, tons of inventory and skill management."

 

So for you, you see the thread that connects something all the way back in the past with Dragon Age Inquisition. I'm merely trying to explain what seems to be fan fraustration with Dragon Age Inquisition, relative to previous games.

 

It certainly was a Bioware game for sure, but I don't think anyone who has followed the company in any capacity would deny it was one of the most, actually, really, by far the most watered down experiences offered by them.

 

I think both things are true, Dragon Age Inquisition is fundamentally like many other Bioware games in their past, and was just all very homogenized to fit into that aforementioned general sphere of media.

[Elhanan]

It seemed to be only limited by the new engine (eg; Mounts for riding only), and has a reduced Tactics menu, but do not see the 'simplified' problem that has been flying about these past years (eg; Skyrim).

[Seraphim24]

It seemed to be only limited by the new engine (eg; Mounts for riding only), and has a reduced Tactics menu, but do not see the 'simplified' problem that has been flying about these past years (eg; Skyrim).

 

Well, it's not "simplified" per se, but like completing past Bioware games did not always absolutely require the use of a map, they were designed with a closer proximity between like what the player might need to get where they want to than now.

 

On the conceptual side not that it would of made any sense in previous Bioware games per se, but the lack of investment in the "renegade" or alternative path kind of diminished to nothing, it might as well be Jedi vs Sith or something. The gap between Dragon Age Inquisition and Dragon Age 2 is particularly noteworthy in this respect, since Dragon Age Inquisition is much more thoroughly chosen one than Dragon Age 2 which is akin to a Firefly in Middle Earth situation.

 

It often made very little sense to take an evil option in an older game, but that kind of evaporated over time, along with the handful of times it could at least spark a sense of sense.

 

Those things cropped up because open world is a Skyrim thing, or another game thing, and Bioware opted to copy all that. Neverminding that Skyrim suffers from the same exact problem (absolute requirement of using map, not playing organically, and simply following the markers), a trend which was evaporating over the course of Morrowind and Oblivion.

 

but since you can count the number of Anti-Skyrim and Pro-DA2 fans one one hand, they seemed content to go with the flow.

 

I actually don't really dislike Skyrim myself, I treat it kind of as a popcorn RPG, it's fluffy and not very hardcore but it's all right.

 

Also they didn't feature the massive quest a thon, the side quests in for example KOTOR or NWN were fairly limited and focused. It was pretty ironic to here Bioware developers talk about the engaging side quests in TW3 when they were one of the company's that actually had traditionally focused on making the "side quest" idea engaging such as in NWN and KOTOR.

[OMTING52601]

I finished this game three times, really liked; today I began my fourth playthrough since Trespasser was out, did a few questions in the Hinterlands, and suddenly I lost the interest to finish the game.

The thought of doing those fetch quests all over again to gain power is unsettling.

So, yeah...idk.

 

Yeah, hear that. Though, if you clear out most of those first three areas: Hinterlands, Mire, Storm Coast, that will net you somewhere close to seventy power, iirc. That's definitely enough to open up the rest of the main story arcs, well as long as you play through the companion lines. And you don't need to open up even one more 'open-world' area, but can just play through to the end (and doing this will net you enough power to open up Descent and JoH, which will open up Trespasser). FWIW

[AlanC9]

The 100 hour quest-a-thon? That concept originated with Baldur's Gate 1.
 

Not Fallout?

[Seraphim24]

Not Fallout?

 

Was it Fallout? I only played Fallout 2, which.. I think came out after Baldur's Gate? I wouldn't be shocked though...

 

I also don't remember Fallout 2 well enough to say whether it was ultimately a quest a thon, feels like I have more positive memories than bad ones.. and yet I think I actually enjoyed Fallout Tactics: Brotherhood of Steel more than any mainline Fallout game.

[AlanC9]

Yeah, hear that. Though, if you clear out most of those first three areas: Hinterlands, Mire, Storm Coast, that will net you somewhere close to seventy power, iirc. That's definitely enough to open up the rest of the main story arcs, well as long as you play through the companion lines. And you don't need to open up even one more 'open-world' area, but can just play through to the end (and doing this will net you enough power to open up Descent and JoH, which will open up Trespasser). FWIW

I'm not sure clearing out any area is a great strategy, honestly. Except maybe Crestwood; I found that I just about cleared that out the other day by accident. Between solving the undead problem, finding Hawke, and the stuff you literally run into while accomplishing those things, you'll hit most of the stuff in the region.

Edit: come to think of it, Fallow Mire is linear enough so you almost have to clear it while rescuing the soldiers. I think there's one rift that's a bit out of the way.

[Seraphim24]

I see you are all passively    mounting the counter-imposing notion that there isn't any major filler in DA:I, but none of that changes that a map is required, you can't just wander all over Thedas and just happen to find what you are looking for, ergo it's non-organic.

 

But more to the point I already made this point, which was that modern Bioware is clearly descended from their early forms of making games, or in essence, the deviations are more recent and noteworthy but not cataclysmic.

[Andrew Lucas]

Yeah, hear that. Though, if you clear out most of those first three areas: Hinterlands, Mire, Storm Coast, that will net you somewhere close to seventy power, iirc. That's definitely enough to open up the rest of the main story arcs, well as long as you play through the companion lines. And you don't need to open up even one more 'open-world' area, but can just play through to the end (and doing this will net you enough power to open up Descent and JoH, which will open up Trespasser). FWIW

Thanks for the advice, mate. I'll certainly give this pt a try once again. *thumbs up*

[AlanC9]

Was it Fallout? I only played Fallout 2, which.. I think came out after Baldur's Gate? I wouldn't be shocked though...
 
I also don't remember Fallout 2 well enough to say whether it was ultimately a quest a thon, feels like I have more positive memories than bad ones.. and yet I think I actually enjoyed Fallout Tactics: Brotherhood of Steel more than any mainline Fallout game.

FO1 came before BG. Mechanically, very similar to FO2. The main difference is that it's a lot less jokey than 2, which has a few towns that can't really be taken seriously.

[FKA_Servo]

Thanks for the advice, mate. I'll certainly give this pt a try once again. *thumbs up*

 

Honestly, as long as you don't skip everything, you barely have to do anything. I find without going out of my way at all (and skipping a few zones as well) I usually have a huge power surplus.

[Seraphim24]

FO1 came before BG. Mechanically, very similar to FO2. The main difference is that it's a lot less jokey than 2, which has a few towns that can't really be taken seriously.

 

Well to be honest in terms of other examples I was thinking Final Fantasy 7 would probably qualify not necessarily as a quest-a-thon but the amount of side stuff in that game was insanely high, along with cinematics and everything else.

[AlanC9]

I see you are all passively mounting the counter-imposing notion that there isn't any major filler in DA:I, but none of that changes that a map is required, you can't just wander all over Thedas and just happen to find what you are looking for, ergo it's non-organic.

I wouldn't use non-organic that way. In games where you don't need a map, the reason you don't need a map is that the world has been reduced to a corridor which takes you where you need to go. That's hardly organic.

Edit: I don't want to imply that I'm opposed to such designs. I liked the Mass Effect games fine, for instance.

[Seraphim24]

I wouldn't use non-organic that way. In games where you don't need a map, the reason you don't need a map is that the world has been reduced to a corridor which takes you where you need to go. That's hardly organic.

Edit: I don't want to imply that I'm opposed to such designs. I liked the Mass Effect games fine, for instance.

 

That's not true in all games, sometimes it's a corridor, in fact, you could argue FF13 and DA2 successfully pair themselves together in that sense.

 

However, if you try to finish the quests in Tatooine in SWTOR without using the map and playing organically it will take you at least 3 days real time.

[OMTING52601]

I'm not sure clearing out any area is a great strategy, honestly. Except maybe Crestwood; I found that I just about cleared that out the other day by accident. Between solving the undead problem, finding Hawke, and the stuff you literally run into while accomplishing those things, you'll hit most of the stuff in the region.

Edit: come to think of it, Fallow Mire is linear enough so you almost have to clear it while rescuing the soldiers. I think there's one rift that's a bit out of the way.

 

Well, lmao, honestly I don't think DAI requires or even follows any kind of strategy. My opinion, of course. I guess all I was offering was a way to gain the power to play through the main story arc without having to trudge the whole map and by doing it using only the three areas initially open to the IQ (doing just Vale's quest line in the Hinterlands nets enough power to open Storm Coast and the Mire)

[OMTING52601]

I see you are all passively    mounting the counter-imposing notion that there isn't any major filler in DA:I, but none of that changes that a map is required, you can't just wander all over Thedas and just happen to find what you are looking for, ergo it's non-organic.

 

But more to the point I already made this point, which was that modern Bioware is clearly descended from their early forms of making games, or in essence, the deviations are more recent and noteworthy but not cataclysmic.

 

The counter-imposing notion? Literal counter (like the whole power accumulation) or opposite? Sorry, I'm a linguist by trade and that sentence had me all  confounded lol. There is absolutely humongous, massive, omg ridiculous amounts of filler in DA:I. Also, maps are totes req'd and I totally ditto your point 'non-organic'. Moreover, the main story quests (well, maybe except for HLtA) take place outside those maps, in other maps, so aren't even organically linked to previous quest/exploration pathways.

 

Leaving out hyperbole (because cataclysm is the New Madrid fault blowing a 10.0, not BW mucking up one of their properties), the evolution of the company, and its games, does come down from their earlier work, sure, of course. But the folks that initially built the company and its signature properties are no longer involved, and what evolution has taken place over the last five years has much more to do with what the new leadership think works as a profit or revenue stream and less about evolution of the company and where the properties or what the properties were originally created to achieve (beyond making some money, of course).

 

Other companies have seen changes in leadership or massive growth in the same time frame without suffering the same sorts of issues - both in the consumer and business reputation sphere. 

 

You can disregard all of this, though, lol, if I completely misinterpreted your comment.

[Seraphim24]

The counter-imposing notion? Literal counter (like the whole power accumulation) or opposite? Sorry, I'm a linguist by trade and that sentence had me all  confounded lol. There is absolutely humongous, massive, omg ridiculous amounts of filler in DA:I. Also, maps are totes req'd and I totally ditto your point 'non-organic'. Moreover, the main story quests (well, maybe except for HLtA) take place outside those maps, in other maps, so aren't even organically linked to previous quest/exploration pathways.

 

Leaving out hyperbole (because cataclysm is the New Madrid fault blowing a 10.0, not BW mucking up one of their properties), the evolution of the company, and its games, does come down from their earlier work, sure, of course. But the folks that initially built the company and its signature properties are no longer involved, and what evolution has taken place over the last five years has much more to do with what the new leadership think works as a profit or revenue stream and less about evolution of the company and where the properties or what the properties were originally created to achieve (beyond making some money, of course).

 

Other companies have seen changes in leadership or massive growth in the same time frame without suffering the same sorts of issues - both in the consumer and business reputation sphere. 

 

You can disregard all of this, though, lol, if I completely misinterpreted your comment.

 

I really don't understand you sorry, all I said is that Bioware underwent substantial changes in the sense that they made things more homogenous kind of products instead of their prior more unique ones. Which is true.

 

Although as we've been discussing, arguably they aren't necessarily so different, from a certain point of view, they are in fact, not super dissimilar.

[OMTING52601]

Honestly, as long as you don't skip everything, you barely have to do anything. I find without going out of my way at all (and skipping a few zones as well) I usually have a huge power surplus.

 

LOL, I always have a surplus - huge being relative - even playing a quick play like I sugg'd above. I don't know if its possible not to have surplus. The weird part, for me, was realizing I didn't have to really do ANYTHING to begin with (just a bunch of fetch quests to gain some power), I could leave out so much of the content and it had zero effect on the game. That was probably the hardest thing for me to accept about DAI.

[OMTING52601]

I really don't understand you sorry, all I said is that Bioware underwent substantial changes in the sense that they made things more homogenous kind of products instead of their prior more unique ones. Which is true.

 

Although as we've been discussing, arguably they aren't necessarily so different, from a certain point of view, they are in fact, not super dissimilar.

 

Righty, then, LOL, yes. I agree. Their earlier stuff was more unique in that it filled a particular kind of niche in the RPG world - one where crafting and item management and superfluous bits of inconsequential content was limited, while NPCs and story took the foreground. Sure, BG was a huge quest-a-thon, but the main arc was still meaty, you know, it had teeth.

[Seraphim24]

Righty, then, LOL, yes. I agree. Their earlier stuff was more unique in that it filled a particular kind of niche in the RPG world - one where crafting and item management and superfluous bits of inconsequential content was limited, while NPCs and story took the foreground. Sure, BG was a huge quest-a-thon, but the main arc was still meaty, you know, it had teeth.

 

BG was pretty silly lol from my perspective, the thing I remember most of all was that Portalbendarwinden comment in one of the dialogues gosh that was just silly. They were a silly company and maybe still are!

[MichaelN7]

I've mentioned this before, but I think a large part has to do with what BioWare-game-players do in a BioWare game.

I think it's safe to say that the majority are "100%-completionist" types, i.e. we talk to EVERYONE and we scour the Journal and Codex for EVERY LAST QUEST, DIALOGUE, and XP.

Nothing wrong with that, and I freely admit that that's the way I play them.

 

But trying to do that in Inquisition is a pretty tall order.  I have a save file that I keep around in case Dragon Age: Tevinter can use it.

Human male mage; I have close to 200 hours into that save over a period of 6-8 months, playing it on-off, it's my "canon" playthrough where everything is just so; all the dialogue options, companion quests, major decisions, all the way down to what I'm wearing and what abilities I have.

 

I have over 500 power, Inquisition is rank 20 (max level), I am level 27 (max level), and I have enough crafting resources to make weapons for my entire group of companions using nothing but Dragon Bone, Dragon Scales, and Dragon Webbing.

With Mastercrafts.

I have everyone's armor tinted just so, and everyone has optimal accessories based on their skill-sets.

I could go on.

Long story short, it's big, and it's long.

But technically speaking, it's not 100%.  The Requisition system is designed to never run out, i.e. I have a few Requisitions that I can't complete because the enemies that drop the items (Decorative Gems or some such) no longer appear, so they stay in my Journal, forever unfulfilled, and the completionist in me is irked by that, just a little.

 

I think part of the discomfort is that Inquisition requires a different mind-set from previous entries and from the Mass Effect trilogy.  The "BioWare classic" is semi-linear in nature, like a train follows the tracks, but there will be different sets of tracks, which regardless all lead to the same station.

Here we have something akin to an open area and we're in an off-road vehicle with enough gas to get from Point A to Point B, and a map with some fuel locations.

Trying to do EVERYTHING is possible, but such an extensive process isn't necessary to advance the plot.

You can literally pick and choose what you want to do to gain Power to unlock new areas and/or main missions.

 

I have a female elf playthrough in the works (I'm interested in seeing the "Solasmancer" arc for myself), and I'm not fussing over the nitty-gritty, and I find it's a much faster experience.

I'm skipping entire areas, because it's either out of the way or it's not part of a quest, unless it's dragons.

Always fight the dragons.

 

To summarize, BioWare veterans are accustomed to a certain "flavor" of experiences, whereas Inquisition has us consider other "flavors", and I think it does so very well, considering what they had to work with and what they had to work around.  Dragon Age 2 was meant to be much bigger than it turned out to be, largely because fans gave it such a hard time, much of what was originally planned for that made it's way into Inquisition.

Adding in the fact that there are NINE different companions, each with one of the specializations that fits into their back-story, and then having individual character arcs for each one...

It's an incredible thing.

If someone is complaining that the game takes too long, it's because you're trying to apply "old" gaming knowledge to a "new" game.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against that mindset, nor do I wish to imply that it's "outdated" or "lame", it just doesn't sync-up to what Inquisition offers.

Ironically enough, the LESS you focus on 100%, the more you get out of it.

 

Dragon Age: Inquisition is every bit deserving of it's Game of the Year status and whatnot, you just need to adjust your mindset.

[Seraphim24]

Also posting this for feels and nostalgias

 

 

[OMTING52601]

*snipI

 

I think part of the discomfort is that Inquisition requires a different mind-set from previous entries and from the Mass Effect trilogy.  The "BioWare classic" is semi-linear in nature, like a train follows the tracks, but there will be different sets of tracks, which regardless all lead to the same station.

Here we have something akin to an open area and we're in an off-road vehicle with enough gas to get from Point A to Point B, and a map with some fuel locations.

Trying to do EVERYTHING is possible, but such an extensive process isn't necessary to advance the plot.

You can literally pick and choose what you want to do to gain Power to unlock new areas and/or main missions.

 

*snip*

 

Dragon Age: Inquisition is every bit deserving of it's Game of the Year status and whatnot, you just need to adjust your mindset.

 

 

It doesn't require a different mindset, not really. It just requires players to understand the game was designed as an MMO. MMO's don't have an 'end', that is sort of the point. They are built to continue to offer content and gaming even beyond some story arc. This would be why those req quests keep recycling, just as an example. However, BW chose not to complete the game as an MMO, so they had to adapt all the MMO content (which is most of the game content) to a SP game. This is why things like those req's get a bit broken (with the folks/items getting closed off if x, y, or z has occurred in the main story arc). This also explains the RNG nature of needed quest items - its the go-to way for MMO's to keep players playing filler and elongates those 'story expansions'. 

 

And I'm not making this up. Darrah confirmed a long time ago DAI was intended to be an MMO. And the GOTY... well, 2014 was a weak year in RPG gaming. I'm not casting aspersions, I'm saying when prizes or awards have to be given out, somebody has to take the crown, and there were wasn't any competition. There's no way the GOTY is going to go to some mobile game by some college junior nobody. It's going to a AAA dev/co. Also, 'deserve' is a subjective term. DAI doesn't deserve anything - not praise or flack. It didn't earn anything or work for a goal (but money, again not an aspersion), so it did nothing to deserve anything. 

[pdusen]

How would I be able to play DAO with the same ratio of side quests if there's only a limited number? Or do you mean do all side quests and only a few of the main quests? I think I would still enjoy it more, as the depth and variety of side quests are better in DAO

...I clearly said to play DAI with the same ratio that you play DAO. What mental gymnastics did you have to go through to get that wrong?

[pdusen]

And I'm not making this up. Darrah confirmed a long time ago DAI was intended to be an MMO.

Citation needed. I'm absolutely sure I would have heard about it if that had ever happened.