470 réponses à ce sujet

[fabio012]

I'm not going to take fabio012 seriously anymore and will be aborting the thread, but I just wanted to say one last thing.

 

Straight males have plenty of options. When it comes to partners, they have 3 that are female. I know for a fact that many hetero males pick a female protagonist because of their own reasons. If you want a female LI, you got em.

 

Cassandra is not a man. Are you blind?

 

Josephine is the sweet romance. What's wrong with that? Plenty of guys enjoy and appreciate that. I KNOW they do.

 

Sera is certainly not my type (face, characterization), but I know at least one friend who rolled a Female Inquisitor and romanced her and enjoyed it.

 

You have options. Good ones. Hyperbole makes you just a joke thread on the Bioware Forums. *clap clap* good job.

I wasnt arguing about options for straight gamers, I dont want romances in these games at all but whatever. You obviously were trying to put me into that category to make me look like a whiny gamer.

[Abaddon_86]

Anyone who thinks Cass is "manly" has never seen a woman in real life.

 

Anyone who gets this pressed about pixelated boobies needs to GET a life.

 

Full stop.

 

 

Your opinions related to that topic are pretty much a joke (as you proved by similar troll postings in other threads where similar topics came up). To easily counter your ridiculous claim: I got a very attractive gf. This is WHY I am one of those who think Cassandra does not exactly look like your typical "female" and "attractive" woman.

Answering part 2 is already redundant.

[Xiolyrr Zoharei]

Vivienne and Leliana could have definitely been available romance options. Why Bioware decided not to make them romancable is beyond me, other than to troll players or adhere to some social justice politics Bioware seems to be on more and more with every new game released. I've wondered the same thing about Aria and Dr. Chakwas from Mass Effect.

[D_Dude1210]

Margin of error is just one factor here.  There's also sampling bias and self-reporting error. 
 
But, no, I don't have any other studies to cite, which is why I'm not making claims about the actual number.  Just pointing out that using a single study that clearly identifies limitations in it's write-up isn't exactly reliable data and is certainly nothing I'd hang my academic hat on.  Plus, I wanted to correct the misinterpretation and misrepresentation of that data in this thread.

Well, that sucked. Had my entire reply typed up only for the damned forums to kick me out and force me to log in as soon as I pressed "post".

Anyway, sampling was done via random sampling and via cellphone and telephone conversations? How exactly will sampling bias occur here in sufficient numbers to be considered relevant?

Would agree that the self-reporting nature of the study would no doubt cause errors as (like you said) not everyone would identify themselves as LGBT. But, like you said, you have no study/figures that would quantify this theory sufficiently for us to come up with any kind of numbers or even estimates whatsoever.

I would agree that your point does seek to correct fabio's incorrect presentation of the numbers, but from a purely substantiated standpoint, his numbers are actually the most reliable shown here so far.

[daveliam]

other than to troll players or adhere to some social justice politics

Yep, you figured them out.  That's got to be the only reasons.  There couldn't possibly be any other ones, right?  Air-tight logic.

[daveliam]

Well, that sucked. Had my entire reply typed up only for the damned forums to kick me out and force me to log in as soon as I pressed "post".

Anyway, sampling was done via random sampling and via cellphone and telephone conversations? How exactly will sampling bias occur here in sufficient numbers to be considered relevant?

Would agree that the self-reporting nature of the study would no doubt cause errors as (like you said) not everyone would identify themselves as LGBT. But, like you said, you have no study/figures that would quantify this theory sufficiently for us to come up with any kind of numbers or even estimates whatsoever.

I would agree that your point does seek to correct fabio's incorrect presentation of the numbers, but from a purely substantiated standpoint, his numbers are actually the most reliable shown here so far.

 

There's always sampling bias when it comes to surveys.  By their very nature, it's impossible to get a completely random sample.  You can try to get a somewhat random sample, but right off the bat you are excluding people who don't have the devices that they listed, weren't home for the phone calls, chose not to participate, etc.  Now, do those characteristics have any meaning in this situation?  Not sure, but there's always sampling bias when dealing with survey data.  It's not like you can force people to participate and require them to tell the truth.

 

And, of course, his numbers are the most reliable.  They're the only numbers given.  That doesn't mean that they are functionally reliable though.  Unfortunately, as long as there is any societal stigma associated with LGBT people, we'll never have a true idea of how many of us there are.  You get oversimplified and inaccurate survey data or over/under-inflated anecdotal data.  It's the nature of social science research, unfortunately.

[Rawgrim]

Speaking as a straight man here. Even though we got "only" 2 romances in this game, it didn't hurt my experience at all. And I would also, happily, accept the number getting reduced to 1, if this means everyone gets their preference included.

 

But I think people should be prepared for, that sometimes, they might get fewer options than others. The character comes first. If he or she is gay or not, that is what counts. Romances are secondary. I would rather be turned down by a romance option, than have everyone just fall at my feet because of catering.

[D_Dude1210]

There's always sampling bias when it comes to surveys. By their very nature, it's impossible to get a completely random sample. You can try to get a somewhat random sample, but right off the bat you are excluding people who don't have the devices that they listed, weren't home for the phone calls, chose not to participate, etc. Now, do those characteristics have any meaning in this situation? Not sure, but there's always sampling bias when dealing with survey data. It's not like you can force people to participate and require them to tell the truth.

And, of course, his numbers are the most reliable. They're the only numbers given. That doesn't mean that they are functionally reliable though. Unfortunately, as long as there is any societal stigma associated with LGBT people, we'll never have a true idea of how many of us there are. You get oversimplified and inaccurate survey data or over/under-inflated anecdotal data. It's the nature of social science research, unfortunately.

I know that. But if you take that position, you might as well consider ALL surveys bogus as you every single one would have small, unquantifiable, possible "biases" or errors if you dig into their methodology hard enough. Thing is, unless you can statistically prove that 1) LGBT community has less access to cellphones/telephones or are less likely to participate in polls (don't agree with the "not at home" angle. It is random, straight folks have as much chance to be missed as LGBT folks. Preserving the random nature of the sampling) in statistically relevant amounts, i can just as easily dismiss your points as simple unsubstantiated guesses, can't I?

Bottom line, as you cannot quantify your theory (as common sense as it sounds), you thus cannot fault nor criticize fabio for basing his opinions on said study. BTW, this part of my comment isn't really for you but for the others who went "LOL 3% are you stoopid" when fabio threw out his 3% comment (which is actually kinda incorrect as he worded it wrong, tbh).

[celestialfury]

Your opinions related to that topic are pretty much a joke (as you proved by similar troll postings in other threads where similar topics came up). To easily counter your ridiculous claim: I got a very attractive gf. This is WHY I am one of those who think Cassandra does not exactly look like your typical "female" and "attractive" woman.

Answering part 2 is already redundant.

 

Why the hell does Bioware owe you some generic supermodel-turns-pornstar-for-your-special-snowflake-character? Alright, here are your new LIs: femQunari and bald elf, like the options for female players. 

 

oh my god, putting female in scare quotes about Cassandra. You people keep coming out with dumber **** everyday. 

[Joseph Warrick]

Hey guy tell us more about your girlfriend. What does she think about Cass?

[Xiolyrr Zoharei]

Yep, you figured them out.  That's got to be the only reasons.  There couldn't possibly be any other ones, right?  Air-tight logic.

 

Just my opinion. You don't like it? Too bad.

[daveliam]

I know that. But if you take that position, you might as well consider ALL surveys bogus as you every single one would have small, unquantifiable, possible "biases" or errors if you dig into their methodology hard enough. Thing is, unless you can statistically prove that 1) LGBT community has less access to cellphones/telephones or are less likely to participate in polls (don't agree with the "not at home" angle. It is random, straight folks have as much chance to be missed as LGBT folks. Preserving the random nature of the sampling) in statistically relevant amounts, i can just as easily dismiss your points as simple unsubstantiated guesses, can't I?

Bottom line, as you cannot quantify your theory (as common sense as it sounds), you thus cannot fault nor criticize fabio for basing his opinions on said study. BTW, this part of my comment isn't really for you but for the others who went "LOL 3% are you stoopid" when fabio threw out his 3% comment (which is actually kinda incorrect as he worded it wrong, tbh).

 

Well I already stated that I'm not sure if the survey bias is meaningful in any way.  But it does exist.  And, yes, I can fault or criticize fabio for basing his opinions on said study.  I don't need to have a better study in my pocket to criticize a study that has limitations.  But I see that you agree that he misrepresented the data in his interpretation, so that's a moot point, I suppose.

 

Anywho, my main point still stands.  There are limitations to the study he listed which deem the results questionable at best.  I'd not make any sweeping statements about demography based off of that and, even if I did want to be so bold, I couldn't in good faith transpose US data onto Thedosian demographics. 

[rigron]

It kills me when people say Cassandra isn't a woman. Because she doesn't fawn over you and doesn't need you to swing a sword ? She's her own person. If you romance her and grow to enjoy it, good for you. If not, she has stuff to do. In that I can see Morrigan, who is quoted so much as the ultimate romance, and still go see to her own business at the end of DAO. Yes, Morrigan was interesting ; she is so much more than a sarcastic ******. Just like Cassandra is more than an angry armed manly wall. But then, is it Morrigan personality who compelled you to follow her romance, or her second pair of eyes ?

 

Now, if it's about aesthetics, Cass' is not beautiful to you. Beauty standards are not universal. I'm a woman and she is charming to me. Also, the scar ? Totally hot.

 

Solas, although not conventionally beautiful, turned out to be a smooth charming bald guy. I don't see people complaining that he isn't hot enough ; I used to mock him myself. But then you plays and spend some time around his banters, and he may grow on you ; that's what a personality is for ; To see beyond. You're a poor sod if you ever felt like Aveline needed to be hotter, Isabela whiter, and Joséphine bangable. It's not who they are, and they're not changing for you. Just like IRL.

 

Romances, although an enjoyable of BioWare games, are not everything.

 

Companions, although able to grow and take different directions under your counsel, are not here to be your playthings.

 

First, you are a woman and we are talking about what most straight males percieve as sex appeal, not about what a woman (I don´t know if you are hetero or homosexual) percieves as having a charming personality, it is not even related.

 

Second, while they are not universal because there are always exceptions, most males have similar tastes. Take a look at the physical looks of most succesful professional models, you have a lot of Victoria´s Secret vids on youtube, or take a look at the physical looks of most young actress in a romantic role. There are definitely a enormous majority of men who have similar standards in the matter of female sex appeal and Cassandra is not an attracitve woman (or even just a woman) by those standards, and neither Josephine (although she is a woman at least by those standards, unlike Cassandra)

 

Third, I don´t know if Cullen´s face seems cute for a straight woman (or a gay male), but he is a character with almost every (if not all the) physical trait and personality trait a woman percieves as attractive on a man. He is tall, he is muscular while not being on roids, he is blond, he is strong (both physical and mental), he is mature, he works on a leadership position, he seems hard and rough to his people on the outside but is sweet and caring on the inside and he loves to talk and heard you talking. In other words, he is what we describe as the "Supermodel" romance or "Hollywood supermodel" romance in this videogame, which is the fantasy unreal romanceable character that doesn´t exist on real life, only in books, movies and videogames. Why straight males don´t have any option that barely resembles that in Dragon Age Inquisition when we had it on every pass Dragon Age and Mass Effect game?

[daveliam]

Third, I don´t know if Cullen´s face seems cute for a straight woman (or a gay male), but he is a character with almost every (if not all the) physical trait and personality trait a woman percieves as attractive on a man. He is tall, he is muscular while not being on roids, he is blond, he is strong (both physical and mental), he is mature, he works on a leadership position, he seems hard and rough to his people on the outside but is sweet and caring on the inside and he loves to talk and heard you talking. In other words, he is what we describe as the "Supermodel" romance or "Hollywood supermodel" romance in this videogame, which is the fantasy unreal romanceable character that doesn´t exist on real life, only in books, movies and videogames. Why straight males don´t have any option that barely resembles that in Dragon Age Inquisition when we had it on every pass Dragon Age and Mass Effect game?

 

Well, to be fair on this one, it's not like straight gals have had a "Hollywood supermodel" guy in every game.  None of the guys in DA 2 fit that trope.  Certainly no more so than Josephine or Cassandra do. 

 

I see a lot of people complaining about how the writers are forced to include a variety of sexualities and should just create characters that they want to create.  If that's true, then shouldn't the same be said about how they look?  They shouldn't be forced to create a Victoria's Secret model looking gal every time, right?  They've done it in almost every game, but they decided not to for this one and, instead, gave two perfectly attractive LI's who might be a little unconventional looking. 

[Emeriick]

Third, I don´t know if Cullen´s face seems cute for a straight woman (or a gay male), but he is a character with almost every (if not all the) physical trait and personality trait a woman percieves as attractive on a man. He is tall, he is muscular while not being on roids, he is blond, he is strong (both physical and mental), he is mature, he works on a leadership position, he seems hard and rough to his people on the outside but is sweet and caring on the inside and he loves to talk and heard you talking. In other words, he is what we describe as the "Supermodel" romance or "Hollywood supermodel" romance in this videogame, which is the fantasy unreal romanceable character that doesn´t exist on real life, only in books, movies and videogames. Why straight males don´t have any option that barely resembles that in Dragon Age Inquisition when we had it on every pass Dragon Age and Mass Effect game?

 

You can't deny he makes a good point on Cullen. I didn't even realize it until now, but Cullen is so perfect it's kind of unreal. It's something you would only find in a book, movie, or video game. And that's /fine/, because it's all a work of fiction. But the fact that guys don't get that here is worthy of a few complaints. I personally have no issue with cassandra and think she's plenty attractive but I can understand other guys not feeling the same way. Those guys shouldn't be treated rudely or like trash every time they mention this just because they happened to be Heterosexual males with a complaint. 

[Xilizhra]

You can't deny he makes a good point on Cullen. I didn't even realize it until now, but Cullen is so perfect it's kind of unreal. It's something you would only find in a book, movie, or video game. And that's /fine/, because it's all a work of fiction. But the fact that guys don't get that here is worthy of a few complaints. I personally have no issue with cassandra and think she's plenty attractive but I can understand other guys not feeling the same way. Those guys shouldn't be treated rudely or like trash every time they mention this just because they happened to be Heterosexual males with a complaint. 

That last sentence might be true in cases where they aren't attacking women/gays. Which happens more often than not.

[celestialfury]

First, you are a woman and we are talking about what most straight males percieve as sex appeal, not about what a woman (I don´t know if you are hetero or homosexual) percieves as having a charming personality, it is not even related.

 

Second, while they are not universal because there are always exceptions, most males have similar tastes. Take a look at the physical looks of most succesful professional models, you have a lot of Victoria´s Secret vids on youtube, or take a look at the physical looks of most young actress in a romantic role. There are definitely a enormous majority of men who have similar standards in the matter of female sex appeal and Cassandra is not an attracitve woman (or even just a woman) by those standards, and neither Josephine (although she is a woman at least by those standards, unlike Cassandra)

 

Third, I don´t know if Cullen´s face seems cute for a straight woman (or a gay male), but he is a character with almost every (if not all the) physical trait and personality trait a woman percieves as attractive on a man. He is tall, he is muscular while not being on roids, he is blond, he is strong (both physical and mental), he is mature, he works on a leadership position, he seems hard and rough to his people on the outside but is sweet and caring on the inside and he loves to talk and heard you talking. In other words, he is what we describe as the "Supermodel" romance or "Hollywood supermodel" romance in this videogame, which is the fantasy unreal romanceable character that doesn´t exist on real life, only in books, movies and videogames. Why straight males don´t have any option that barely resembles that in Dragon Age Inquisition when we had it on every pass Dragon Age and Mass Effect game?

 

You have these options, they're called Josephine and Cassandra. Josephine is just as cute as Cullen and is also an advisor, these two romances are equivalent. Though I'm not sure why I bother talking to someone who doesn't believe you can be a woman and have short hair at the same time. 

[Emeriick]

That last sentence might be true in cases where they aren't attacking women/gays. Which happens more often than not.

 

Yes it does happen, but not every single heterosexual guy is some anti-gay/anti-women troll who is just complaining because they want to see people get mad. Some of us are just normal guys who are enjoying DA just like everyone else and it just so happens that we have an opinion, one that we would like to share without being told our opinion is invalid because we're too "privileged". 

 

Again, I personally have no issue with the game's LI for guys, I find both options perfectly fine. But I can understand where others are coming from, something a lot of other people should try. 

[D_Dude1210]

Well I already stated that I'm not sure if the survey bias is meaningful in any way.  But it does exist.  And, yes, I can fault or criticize fabio for basing his opinions on said study.  I don't need to have a better study in my pocket to criticize a study that has limitations.  But I see that you agree that he misrepresented the data in his interpretation, so that's a moot point, I suppose.
 
Anywho, my main point still stands.  There are limitations to the study he listed which deem the results questionable at best.  I'd not make any sweeping statements about demography based off of that and, even if I did want to be so bold, I couldn't in good faith transpose US data onto Thedosian demographics.

It exists but whether or not it exists in a statistically relevant quantity is questionable as we don't know either way. Sure, you can fault a guy (it is a free country) all you want but seeing as he has better evidence than you, it would only make him more right than you are in the end. And while you don't need a better study to criticize a study's faults, criticizing a study's faults does not invalidate its results when used in a debate when you don't have a better study to contradict it. And yes, he misrepresented the results. He said world. The poll only covers the US.

I'm not even sure what your point is really, tbh. But if it was to cast doubt on the study's findings, then I'd have to disagree. His original point wasn't to transpose US data into Thedosian demographics (tho it was clever how people managed to maneuver him into taking that position),p.

[Rawgrim]

Both Cassandra and Josephine are good characters. No complaints about either of them.

 

I hope Bioware adds a 6.3 feet tall, muscular Qunari as a love option next time, for straight men. A short haired one. Just for spite.

[Xilizhra]

Yes it does happen, but not every single heterosexual guy is some anti-gay/anti-women troll who is just complaining because they want to see people get mad. Some of us are just normal guys who are enjoying DA just like everyone else and it just so happens that we have an opinion, one that we would like to share without being told our opinion is invalid because we're too "privileged". 

And it's not invalid, provided that you don't do what I just mentioned. I recommend vocally repudiating anyone who does that; it'll help your reputation and make your arguments look better.