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Any else not like Vivienne?


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#251
Junebug

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Its about her Harrowing, she was almost possessed by a demon, it scarred her and made her afraid against all fade beings, this is why she treat Cole badly.

Mm'kay, I looked up Harrowing rituals and it makes more sense. But still...this info shouldn't be left to party banter. I never have Cole in my party because I'm an Assassin Rogue already—having him on my team would be inefficient. So to people who don't care enough to look it up or ask, she looks like an elitist Loyalist.

 

I still want to see her rise to power as well.



#252
congokong

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Not at all. If you never reach the Well or if Corypheus gets there first, all is lost anyway. If you're just going to fight the elves, you can do it after you've used their aid. That's just strategy, not metagaming. And the only thing Morrigan says is "consider carefully."

I feel like I'm arguing with someone who insists 2+2=5. You' have no idea without meta-gaming what options you'll have later if you accept the Sentinel's offer. All you know is you're agreeing to their terms in that moment while disregarding Morrigan's suggestion. Your "I'm still following Morrigan's advice because I intend to betray the elves later if they don't give me the well" is a pure BS head-canon used to justify your weak reasoning.

 

The Sentinels make an offer: they'll help you if you leave afterwards without pursing the well. Morrigan says, "Consider carefully. You must stop Corypheus, yes? But you may also need the well for your own." That means she's suggesting to refuse the deal because it would mean not using the well. Thus, following her advice always means killing the Sentinels.

 

If you still cannot grasp this very basic summation then you're hopeless.



#253
dragonflight288

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She is just how I imagined her really. So I'm okay with her. Only thing missing is the dress up montage where she teaches everyone proper etiquette for the ball. Imagine how funny that would have been!

 

You know, that would be hilarious. 

 

Sera and Iron Bull being taught manners by Vivienne would be quite a sight to say. 

 

Bioware, add it in a patch. 



#254
congokong

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I can't blame Vivienne for not liking Cole. Spirits, and their strong desire to possess, are the main reason mages are locked away. Sure, right now Cole isn't hurting people. That hasn't always been the case, and how easily can that be changed? From Solas' explanation on how spirits "adapt" to sometimes become demons, spirits sound like the worst case of bi-polar disorder. Even Cole goes through a major metamorphosis in either becoming more human or more spirit. Spirits are just too unstable in comparison to people. Vivienne, quite reasonably, is not willing to give Cole the monstrous benefit of the doubt after seeing/learning time and again of the damage spirits have done.

 

And unlike Solas, Vivienne is a truly practical person. Maybe all spirits aren't bad. Almost all who come into the physical world cause harm though so should Vivienne be cherry-picking? Yes, Solas is adept at working with spirits, and being more idealistic is willing to give them more of a chance. Had he not been so adept he'd not feel the same surely and/or be possessed. He's also more towards the principle of mage freedom while Vivienne sees the reality that mages must co-exist with non-mages who fear them; as well as outnumber them 100-1.

 

We also see Solas' idealism in his distaste of the qun, for example in banter with Iron Bull, when he criticizes how someone cannot pursue their dream as a poet under the qun when in practice almost none do it. The few are denied for the "medicore many." That practicality is off-putting for him.


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#255
Boost32

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You know, that would be hilarious. 

 

Sera and Iron Bull being taught manners by Vivienne would be quite a sight to say. 

 

Bioware, add it in a patch. 

She taught dance moves to Bull



#256
Addai

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I feel like I'm arguing with someone who insists 2+2=5. You' have no idea without meta-gaming what options you'll have later if you accept the Sentinel's offer. All you know is you're agreeing to their terms in that moment while disregarding Morrigan's suggestion. Your "I'm still following Morrigan's advice because I intend to betray the elves later if they don't give me the well" is a pure BS head-canon used to justify your weak reasoning.
 
The Sentinels make an offer: they'll help you if you leave afterwards without pursing the well. Morrigan says, "Consider carefully. You must stop Corypheus, yes? But you may also need the well for your own." That means she's suggesting to refuse the deal because it would mean not using the well. Thus, following her advice always means killing the Sentinels.
 
If you still cannot grasp this very basic summation then you're hopeless.

Your interpretations are not facts. The fate of the Sentinels is dependent on the Inquisitor's choices, not on Morrigan. So if there's Chaos there, as was claimed earlier, then the Inquisitor made it so.

Now since this is off topic anyway and I've answered why I like Morrigan and not Vivienne very thoroughly, I suggest we move on.

#257
dragonflight288

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I can't blame Vivienne for not liking Cole. Spirits, and their strong desire to possess, are the main reason mages are locked away. Sure, right now Cole isn't hurting people. That hasn't always been the case, and how easily can that be changed? From Solas' explanation on how spirits "adapt" to sometimes become demons, spirits sound like the worst case of bi-polar disorder. Even Cole goes through a major metamorphosis in either becoming more human or more spirit. Spirits are just too unstable in comparison to people. Vivienne, quite reasonably, is not willing to give Cole the monstrous benefit of the doubt after seeing/learning time and again of the damage spirits have done.

 

And unlike Solas, Vivienne is a truly practical person. Maybe all spirits aren't bad. Almost all who come into the physical world cause harm though so should Vivienne be cherry-picking? Yes, Solas is adept at working with spirits, and being more idealistic is willing to give them more of a chance. Had he not been so adept he'd not feel the same surely and/or be possessed. He's also more towards the principle of mage freedom while Vivienne sees the reality that mages must co-exist with non-mages who fear them; as well as outnumber them 100-1.

 

We also see Solas' idealism in his distaste of the qun, for example in banter with Iron Bull, when he criticizes how someone cannot pursue their dream as a poet under the qun when in practice almost none do it. The few are denied for the "medicore many." That practicality is off-putting for him.

 

Well, yes. But we also learn from Solas that your own desires and what you expect of a spirit may in turn corrupt it from its own nature with his friend Wisdom forced into Pride by those mages who wanted to cross the Exalted Plains. 

 

We also know from the latest DLC that Spirits are a lot more complicated than what the Chantry teaches and believes about them. The Avaar regularly practice spirit magic and do things that the Chantry declares impossible, like getting possessed from an early age, not causing anyone harm, and then getting unpossessed without outside aid. 

 

Vivienne is practical, and for the most part I think she's right in how to approach spirits. But I also, after getting to know Solas, his personal quest and dealing with the Avaar in Jaws of Hakkon, have started rethinking my approach to spirits. 

 

Vivienne, like I said, is practical. But she and the Circle seem to deliberately keep themselves ignorant on the Fade and the true nature of spirits out of a religious dogma, and since their will affects the Fade and is reflected by the denizens, what would otherwise be a good spirit becomes a demon because they willed that spirit into a demon. It's what they expect and believe, and since the Fade is shaped by belief and will, they find themselves facing more demons than they otherwise would need to. 

 

That's what I now think of it all. 


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#258
Solace

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She reminds me of overly religious people.



#259
congokong

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Well, yes. But we also learn from Solas that your own desires and what you expect of a spirit may in turn corrupt it from its own nature with his friend Wisdom forced into Pride by those mages who wanted to cross the Exalted Plains. 

 

We also know from the latest DLC that Spirits are a lot more complicated than what the Chantry teaches and believes about them. The Avaar regularly practice spirit magic and do things that the Chantry declares impossible, like getting possessed from an early age, not causing anyone harm, and then getting unpossessed without outside aid. 

 

Vivienne is practical, and for the most part I think she's right in how to approach spirits. But I also, after getting to know Solas, his personal quest and dealing with the Avaar in Jaws of Hakkon, have started rethinking my approach to spirits. 

 

Vivienne, like I said, is practical. But she and the Circle seem to deliberately keep themselves ignorant on the Fade and the true nature of spirits out of a religious dogma, and since their will affects the Fade and is reflected by the denizens, what would otherwise be a good spirit becomes a demon because they willed that spirit into a demon. It's what they expect and believe, and since the Fade is shaped by belief and will, they find themselves facing more demons than they otherwise would need to. 

 

That's what I now think of it all. 

If a spirit is that impressionable by others then even more reason to just stay away from them. Spirits are foreign enough. Them being even more complex isn't an argument in favor of interacting with spirits IMO.



#260
dragonflight288

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If a spirit is that impressionable by others then even more reason to just stay away from them. Spirits are foreign enough. Them being even more complex isn't an argument in favor of interacting with spirits IMO.

 

It's an argument to stay away from them if you are the corrupting influence, yes. Whether from misunderstanding the nature of spirits or your own human nature of greed, pride or desire changes and reflects in them. If your very personality is enough to change a spirit you encounter, that is also a very strong reflection on the type of person you are. But the Avaar

 

But the Avaar and Solace don't seem to have this problem at all despite having no formalized Circle training. Or the Rivaini Seers if their Seers are anything like the Augers. 

 

Considering these sources, this perception of spirits seems to be a flaw on Circle training.

 

There's a codex in Inquisition, can't remember the name right off, that discusses this transformation of a spirit. A man fell in love with a Spirit of Love, who was one of the most selfless beings he encountered. But his own desires for that Spirit transformed it into a Desire Demon and it no longer was the being he fell in love with. 

 

There is a danger of these spirits changing from your own will and desires, but I think that part of the problem is a lack of understanding by those who trained in Circles and their total unwillingness to accept that their views may be wrong, which in turn is reflected in the Fade itself. Their lack of understanding makes spirits more dangerous.

 

Now if you are trained in this manner, that is a perfectly legitimate reason to leave spirits alone. It's all you'd know to expect. But that is also no reason to utterly dismiss every other tradition of magic that may approach spirits differently, especially if those ways don't actually harm anyone. That only goes to show evidence that there's something there that the Circle simply cannot offer. 



#261
teh DRUMPf!!

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Well, yes. But we also learn from Solas that your own desires and what you expect of a spirit may in turn corrupt it from its own nature with his friend Wisdom forced into Pride by those mages who wanted to cross the Exalted Plains. 

 

We also know from the latest DLC that Spirits are a lot more complicated than what the Chantry teaches and believes about them. The Avaar regularly practice spirit magic and do things that the Chantry declares impossible, like getting possessed from an early age, not causing anyone harm, and then getting unpossessed without outside aid. 

 

Vivienne is practical, and for the most part I think she's right in how to approach spirits. But I also, after getting to know Solas, his personal quest and dealing with the Avaar in Jaws of Hakkon, have started rethinking my approach to spirits. 

 

Vivienne, like I said, is practical. But she and the Circle seem to deliberately keep themselves ignorant on the Fade and the true nature of spirits out of a religious dogma, and since their will affects the Fade and is reflected by the denizens, what would otherwise be a good spirit becomes a demon because they willed that spirit into a demon. It's what they expect and believe, and since the Fade is shaped by belief and will, they find themselves facing more demons than they otherwise would need to. 

 

That's what I now think of it all. 

 

That is if you buy that SolASS knows what he's talking about. I do not. For all his knowledge and experience he shows a dire lack of wisdom, as evidenced by some pretty spectacular screw-ups.

 

"Oh, the Fade is perfectly harmless -- you just need to have no negative influences in your head!" Oh, wow. Nothing to it, then.[/sarcasm]

 

Everybody has some deep-rooted weakness that can be sensed/exploited by a demon: rage, sloth, envy, pride, desire, hunger, fear. I mean, look at the Fade quest in DA2. Aveline is a tough cookie, physically and mentally, yet the desire demon brought her down, even after she approves or disapproves of how Hawke deals with Torpor just moments earlier (obviously not in favor of dealing with it).


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#262
congokong

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Even if the person interacting with the spirit is partly to blame for its "metamorphosis," others who may not have similar feelings are also in danger once the spirit is turned. It's still absurd regardless. Being prideful shouldn't be enough of a fault to warrant a spirit turning into a pride demon and slaughtering people. Spirits sound incapable of being responsible for their own actions if they can be morphed by contact with the wrong person. The whole thing sounds like playing with fire.



#263
congokong

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Everybody has some deep-rooted weakness that can be sensed/exploited by a demon: rage, sloth, envy, pride, desire, hunger, fear. I mean, look at the Fade quest in DA2. Aveline is a tough cookie, physically and mentally, yet the desire demon brought her down, even after she approves or disapproves of how Hawke deals with Torpor just moments earlier (obviously not in favor of dealing with it).

This. Dabbling with spirits at all is incredibly dangerous. Solas, the spirit idealist, would say not to condemn them all and give them a chance blah blah. Vivienne, the practical type, would say to stay away from them because of what will inevitably occur. I must concur with Vivienne here; especially with examples like DA2's quest that you mentioned. The only one able to resist the demons are Anders (because he's already an abomination lol) and Hawke if you so choose. I'd never think Aveline or Fenris could be corrupted by a few words but they surely can. The whole thing was a suicide mission. And Aveline annoyed me afterward with how dismissive she was of her betrayal.



#264
Xilizhra

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This. Dabbling with spirits at all is incredibly dangerous. Solas, the spirit idealist, would say not to condemn them all and give them a chance blah blah. Vivienne, the practical type, would say to stay away from them because of what will inevitably occur. I must concur with Vivienne here; especially with examples like DA2's quest that you mentioned. The only one able to resist the demons are Anders (because he's already an abomination lol) and Hawke if you so choose. I'd never think Aveline or Fenris could be corrupted by a few words but they surely can. The whole thing was a suicide mission. And Aveline annoyed me afterward with how dismissive she was of her betrayal.

They were all under mind control, not just tempted.



#265
teh DRUMPf!!

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They were all under mind control, not just tempted.

 

Apart from there being no evidence to support this un-provable claim (why was Hawke not mind-controlled by Torpor? Idunna could do it), this would do nothing in favor of Solas's theory either -- if demons can mind-control you then neither they nor the Fade in general is safe no matter how you approach it.


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#266
congokong

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They were all under mind control, not just tempted.

They weren't mind-controlled drones. Yes, the demons messed with their thinking, but a strong will could overcome it. Ex: Hawke potentially. The fact that demons can influence minds at all is a point in favor of staying away from spirits. Good initial intentions alone aren't enough to thwart the dangers.

 

 

Apart from there being no evidence to support this un-provable claim (why was Hawke not mind-controlled by Torpor? Idunna could do it), this would do nothing in favor of Solas's theory either -- if demons can mind-control you then neither they nor the Fade in general is safe no matter how you approach it.

 

Yes, it pretty much means mere exposure to spirits can cause both parties to corrupt the other.


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#267
Korva

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Re: Morrigan -- she's actually the reason why I have such a low tolerance for abject assh*le characters. As a completionist eternally afraid of missing content or character development, I have a too-long history of putting up with characters that don't interest me or flat-out repulse me, "just in case". But Morrigan was just so vile from the word go, so utterly without any redeeming moments or features, that I told myself "never again, I'm through with this BS". What makes her worse than any other assh*le character is the fact that she gets forcibly rammed down my throat over and over. At least most other characters can be avoided or ignored. (Thankfully. Having the whole cast of characters as mandatory, no matter how much they are at odds with the protagonist or each other, annoyed me to no end in some of the older games).

 

I don't know about that. 

 

I think that's all she knows how to act like.

 

Her dialogue with Cole has been getting really interesting.

 

You make a good point. Unfortunately, for me that's too little and too late. I only heard those lines in the banter collection video, because the one time I took her out for a spin was enough to make me bench her permanently. Early impressions matter, and I simply don't have the stomach to coddle and fawn over assh*le characters at the expense of both my own character and (even more importantly) the other companions for most of a game in the vague hope that, maybe, eventually, something or someone will reveal some shred of decency in the insufferable person. IMO a save-the-world, band-of-brothers-and-sisters gig is no place for people who are blatantly not interested in being team players.

 

I had the inverse impression.
By the end of the game I saw what Solas truly was, a hypocrital liar who all he wanted was the orb, the Breach happened because of his mistakes, he didn't join the Inquisition to reapair the damage he had done, but to fulfill his ambitions. His scene with Flemth show how far he will go to complete his plans, even passing over his "friends" , if the Inquisitor goes against him, he will try to kill him/her.

 

Yeah, the post-credit scene torpedoed my impression of the character big time and actually made me lose pretty much all interest in him. I rather like Solas, the person we see during the game itself, but the "Dread Wolf" is big-time bad news, and while I do believe he joined us with a genuine desire to help, he certainly didn't do so in good faith ... and I immediately asked myself how much useful knowledge he withheld from us. (For the record, I also believe Vivienne isn't exclusively in it for herself.)

 

The irony in this situation is that as soon as I watched that cutscene, I realized that it might well have been my Inquisitor's own refusal to give up, her stated belief in getting up and trying again no matter how hard a task is, that played no small part in kicking Solas out of his it's-all-hopeless slump and prompting him to set his new plan in motion ...

 

Still. Solas was lot more trustworthy and authentic in my book, partly for the reasons I already stated but also because he's more ... how to put this, emotionally honest? Odd as that statement is, in the light of his lies. But what I mean is that despite the fact that he's clearly one of the characters who hold themselves apart more, he does show significantly more of his emotions than Vivienne does, and he does it in a way that made me believe they are genuine. Meanwhile, Vivienne had basically only a single "mode" that she stuck to like a broken record: condescension, that never-wavering impression that everyone and everything is forever beneath her. Even when she, say, shows interest in Varric's stories, it's just because she thinks it'll make her look good (i.e. formidable and intimidating). Maybe it's true that years or decades of "playing the Game" at a very high level hardened or crippled, depending on your POV, her so much that she's more or less incapable of being genuine ... but that doesn't make her any more sympathetic.

 

Not every character needs to be buddy-buddies with the protagonist and each other. I could accept a character who has a "this is all just business" mentality and does not fraternize -- as long as they're respectful and decent to those around them and have moments where we can see what moves them instead of being stuck in the same emotion or lack of emotion for almost the whole time.

 

To me, her friendship is one of the strongest in this game,

 

Interesting how impressions can differ. :) I never saw any spark of friendship, and felt as if whatever concern she showed was not for the Inquisitor as a person but a crucial tool that musn't be allowed to fail ... and that concern never came without her mandatory superiority complex. Her advice varied between "certainly sensible and useful, but also so baseline that only a child wouldn't have figured that out by now" and "completely counterproductive". This may, admittedly, be due to bad writing (portraying a political mastermind is not easy, plus Bioware has a history of making NPCs point out the obvious as if the protagonist was a drooling ignoramus) and the aforementioned failure to actually show her being useful to the Inquisition in any capacity although she's supposed to be this political bigwig. She never promised me anything or did anything for me, and if she did, I'd be looking for the dozen traps behind that bait, the dozen favours she'd be sure to want in return, because that's how "the Game" works and she never gave me a reason to believe she stops "playing" it even for a heartbeat.

 

Other thing I find funny is how people say she is like a magister from Tevinter.

 

I agree that is just projection. There are plenty of reasons to like or dislike a character without inventing more.



#268
Xilizhra

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Apart from there being no evidence to support this un-provable claim (why was Hawke not mind-controlled by Torpor? Idunna could do it), this would do nothing in favor of Solas's theory either -- if demons can mind-control you then neither they nor the Fade in general is safe no matter how you approach it.

Hawke isn't mind controlled, just body controlled. Also, the demons only seem to be able to do this due to being empowered by Feynriel's dreamer powers, and dreamers are extremely rare.

 

 

They weren't mind-controlled drones. Yes, the demons messed with their thinking, but a strong will could overcome it. Ex: Hawke potentially. The fact that demons can influence minds at all is a point in favor of staying away from spirits. Good initial intentions alone aren't enough to thwart the dangers.

Neither of the demons try it on Hawke; there's no proof of that.



#269
congokong

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Neither of the demons try it on Hawke; there's no proof of that.

Erm, if you agree to Torpor's deal, you can tell them you weren't strong enough to resist. Then the keeper defends for it being difficult to resist a demon's influence.



#270
Xilizhra

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Erm, if you agree to Torpor's deal, you can tell them you weren't strong enough to resist. Then the keeper defends for it being difficult to resist a demon's influence.

Ah, yes, much like how the Warden can tell Leliana that Andraste's ashes were totally never at that temple and were totally not defiled.



#271
Lumix19

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Your interpretations are not facts. The fate of the Sentinels is dependent on the Inquisitor's choices, not on Morrigan. So if there's Chaos there, as was claimed earlier, then the Inquisitor made it so.

Now since this is off topic anyway and I've answered why I like Morrigan and not Vivienne very thoroughly, I suggest we move on.



I know this has kinda been put to bed but I just wanted to put in my 2 cents, sorry. Anyway the difference I find between Vivienne and Morrigan is that the former needs the system to place her in a position of power, the latter thinks (or knows) she can get the power with or without the system and challenges the system to tell her why she should obey it. Vivienne worked her whole life for her position, manipulated the system to get where she is, and Morrigan usurped her without working because she didn't need to. That's the sort of power I respect, not necessarily the dog-eat-dog mentality but certainly the power that Morrigan has and Vivienne lacks. It's like Cole says, Vivienne likes rules that let her win.

#272
dragonflight288

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I know this has kinda been put to bed but I just wanted to put in my 2 cents, sorry. Anyway the difference I find between Vivienne and Morrigan is that the former needs the system to place her in a position of power, the latter thinks (or knows) she can get the power with or without the system and challenges the system to tell her why she should obey it. Vivienne worked her whole life for her position, manipulated the system to get where she is, and Morrigan usurped her without working because she didn't need to. That's the sort of power I respect, not necessarily the dog-eat-dog mentality but certainly the power that Morrigan has and Vivienne lacks. It's like Cole says, Vivienne likes rules that let her win.

 

One question I like to ask myself is this. If Vivienne was so good at her job and answering Celene's questions, then why did Celene need Morrigan as an Occult Adviser if she already had a magical adviser in the form of Vivienne?



#273
Lumix19

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One question I like to ask myself is this. If Vivienne was so good at her job and answering Celene's questions, then why did Celene need Morrigan as an Occult Adviser if she already had a magical adviser in the form of Vivienne?


Indeed. Morrigan learns all sorts of forbidden arts and masters them whereas Vivienne is either content with her current knowledge, or too afraid to delve into deeper mysteries. The Circle has limited Vivienne sadly whereas Morrigan has grown strong under Flemeth's tutelage.

#274
Steelcan

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One question I like to ask myself is this. If Vivienne was so good at her job and answering Celene's questions, then why did Celene need Morrigan as an Occult Adviser if she already had a magical adviser in the form of Vivienne?

cause Vivienne is more concerned with politics than learning lost lore



#275
Boost32

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One question I like to ask myself is this. If Vivienne was so good at her job and answering Celene's questions, then why did Celene need Morrigan as an Occult Adviser if she already had a magical adviser in the form of Vivienne?


Morrigan's codex explain this: http://dragonage.wik...n_(Inquisition)