400 réponses à ce sujet

[congokong]

Ah, yes, much like how the Warden can tell Leliana that Andraste's ashes were totally never at that temple and were totally not defiled.

You can head-canon that it's a lie to support your argument if you want, even if the game supports it being an honest admission with nothing contradicting the claim; rather those adept at the fade believing it (Anders, the Keeper). Also ignore that there was no lie icon next to the option. Since you don't want to consider being wrong, also dismiss logic dictating demons would try to influence the protagonist while you're at it.

[MisterJB]

People who claim Vivienne cares about nothing but herself clearly aren't paying attention. This is actual dialogue from the game.

 

"One cannot unlearn a primal fear. Like fire or heights, it is not about prejudice. It is about survival.

I care for the witch hunts that will come. I care for the angry mobs who string up mages on gibbets for the vultures.

I care that my stupid brethren will kill and be killed by frightened people defending their families from monsters.

I will stand in opposition to that, whatever you may do."

 

So yes, she may not care in the sense people are used "Oh, we must all learn to live together in peace because we're all people yadayada blahblah" but she clearly cares for both normals and mages

[Xilizhra]

You can head-canon that it's a lie to support your argument if you want, even if the game supports it being an honest admission with nothing contradicting the claim; rather those adept at the fade believing it (Anders, the Keeper). Also ignore that there was no lie icon next to the option. Since you don't want to consider being wrong, also dismiss logic dictating demons would try to influence the protagonist while you're at it.

Given that it's blatantly obvious that Hawke can resist Torpor...

 

 

People who claim Vivienne cares about nothing but herself clearly aren't paying attention. This is actual dialogue from the game.

 

"One cannot unlearn a primal fear. Like fire or heights, it is not about prejudice. It is about survival.

I care for the witch hunts that will come. I care for the angry mobs who string up mages on gibbets for the vultures.

I care that my stupid brethren will kill and be killed by frightened people defending their families from monsters.

I will stand in opposition to that, whatever you may do."

 

So yes, she may not care in the sense people are used "Oh, we must all learn to live together in peace because we're all people yadayada blahblah" but she clearly cares for both normals and mages

What reason do you have to trust her? Especially since Leliana's ending proves her wrong on a fair few things.

[MisterJB]

My dear, if by the end of ROTK, JRR Tolkien wrote of how Aragorn ocuppied Rivendell and drove the elves into alienages, it would be just as out of place as Leliana's epilogue is here. One work of fiction is as valid as the other and, when in conflict, I will choose the one who actually fits Dragon Age, darling.

[Xilizhra]

My dear, if by the end of ROTK, JRR Tolkien wrote of how Aragorn ocuppied Rivendell and drove the elves into alienages, it would be just as out of place as Leliana's epilogue is here. One work of fiction is as valid as the other and, when in conflict, I will choose the one who actually fits Dragon Age, darling.

Haters, it appears, will continue to hate. But one can't ignore a canonical part of the setting and the reactions of the people to it just because it doesn't suit one's politics.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Even if we were to accept Leliana's ending as something that proves Vivienne wrong (which no one rationally should), that does not mean Vivienne's concerns for mages and mundanes both were not genuine. Similarly, none of Leliana's endings demonstrate she gives a damn about anyone politically opposed to her.

 

One could argue that Vivienne's ending proves Leliana's ending wrong. Nobody minds mages being free, but they riot over them holding power.

[MisterJB]

Of course one can, darling.
Haven't you been using the "Cassandra is bi" mod?

[Xilizhra]

 Even if we were to accept Leliana's ending as something that proves Vivienne wrong (which no one rationally should), that does not mean Vivienne's concerns for mages and mundanes both were not genuine. Similarly, none of Leliana's endings demonstrate she gives a damn about anyone politically opposed to her.

 

One could argue that Vivienne's ending proves Leliana's ending wrong. Nobody minds mages being free, but they riot over them holding power.

Vivienne's concerns may or may not be genuine, but her primary concerns are for herself and her political station.

 

 

Of course one can, darling.
Haven't you been using the "Cassandra is bi" mod?

No.

[dragonflight288]

Haters, it appears, will continue to hate. But one can't ignore a canonical part of the setting and the reactions of the people to it just because it doesn't suit one's politics.

 

I think that both Vivienne's and Leliana's endings are perfectly believable when they become Divine because the events leading up to each individual coronation that the Inquisitor did or supported has far reaching consequences.

 

For instance, an Inquisitor who allies with the mages rather than conscripts them, as the Herald of Andraste, will be seen as speaking for the Maker in trusting mages and allowing them more freedoms, whereas a Herald who conscripts the mages's actions will be seen as closer to returning the status quo. 

 

The long-reaching implications, based on popular support due to widespread belief, allows each divine's ending, Cassandra's, Leliana's, or Vivienne's to each be equally plausible and each have issues during their reign that they must potentially face. From Cassandra dealing with rogue templars and seekers who don't want to give up power long held sacred, to Vivienne fighting a shadow war with the mages or Leliana dealing with changing so much so fast that the conservative portion of the chantry protests, and so on. 

[MisterJB]

I could dig up your posts in the Cassandra thread but, really, not worth my time.

[Xilizhra]

I could dig up your posts in the Cassandra thread but, really, not worth my time.

It would indeed be a waste of your time, because I'm not interested in Cassandra romantically; I was arguing on behalf of those who are. It also has nothing at all to do with this argument because, as Dragonflight said, Leliana's and Vivienne's endings aren't in conflict.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Vivienne's concerns may or may not be genuine, but her primary concerns are for herself and her political station.

 

Same is true of Leliana. I don't see you complaining.

[Xilizhra]

Same is true of Leliana. I don't see you complaining.

That's... not actually true. Leliana is primarily devoted to serving other people, and never seeks out power for herself as any sort of end. Vivienne does that all the time.

[dragonflight288]

That's... not actually true. Leliana is primarily devoted to serving other people, and never seeks out power for herself as any sort of end. Vivienne does that all the time.

 

Heck, doesn't Vivienne caring for Bastien seemingly change if she disapproves or approves? Like if she approves of the Inquisitor she comes across as more sympathetic and caring, but if she disapproves she'll admit that she used the Inquisitor and Bastien to advance her own position?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

That's... not actually true. Leliana is primarily devoted to serving other people, and never seeks out power for herself as any sort of end. Vivienne does that all the time.

 

It is 100% true.

 

Never seeks power?? The Divine is arguably the highest power in Thedas, and she makes it very clear she wants that position after her companion-quest.

 

And no, Leliana is not primarily devoted to serving people. She may have been in DA:O, but she is a very different person in Inquisition. To name one example, Leliana says to hell with Kirkwall. Given the quest to annex it, she helps you support SeaBass. If given the quest to aid its recovery, she says forget it.

[dragonflight288]

It is 100% true.

 

Never seeks power?? The Divine is arguably the highest power in Thedas, and she makes it very clear she wants that position after her companion-quest.

 

And no, Leliana is not primarily devoted to serving people. She may have been in DA:O, but she is a very different person in Inquisition. To name one example, Leliana says to hell with Kirkwall. Given the quest to annex it, she helps you support SeaBass. If given the quest to aid its recovery, she says forget it.

 

Leliana does want the power, yes, but she also intends to undo every injustice the chantry has ever committed, against mages, against elves, and so on, regardless of opposition.

 

I suppose the big sticking point between them is their personal history. Leliana is involved because Justinia asked her to be her left hand. Vivienne is involved because she can't leave politics alone and has been playing the game and advancing her own position from the get-go.

 

It's their background and history that makes some people more leery of Vivienne and suspicious of her than Leliana. Of course, more people tend to think Leliana's reforms are destinted to end in failure because she tries to do too much too fast. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Leliana does want the power, yes, but she also intends to undo every injustice the chantry has ever committed, against mages, against elves, and so on, regardless of opposition.

 

Of course, because no one has ever abused power in the name of good intentions. 

 

Respect the player, hate the game. I do not cut on Leliana for wanting power, really, I just think she is not fit for it. I will never cut on anyone who wants to advance their position and move up, though. At the end of the day, we all do. You are either lying to me or lying to yourself if you claim otherwise.

 

Wryme (the Pride Demon from Night Terrors) said it best (re: DiploHawke) -- "Those who are free to choose always want power."

[TEWR]

Erm, if you agree to Torpor's deal, you can tell them you weren't strong enough to resist. Then the keeper defends for it being difficult to resist a demon's influence.

 

Is it possible it differs based on Hawke's personality? That is to say, diplomatic Hawke might say they weren't strong enough, while Snarky Hawke might say "Did I do that?".

 

Apart from there being no evidence to support this un-provable claim (why was Hawke not mind-controlled by Torpor? Idunna could do it), this would do nothing in favor of Solas's theory either -- if demons can mind-control you then neither they nor the Fade in general is safe no matter how you approach it.

 

Because in the lore, Sloth Demons can't use mind control. Only Desire Demons and Pride Demons, and both are loathe to use it if they can avoid it because they deem it crude. This is in a codex, in fact, and hasn't been contradicted to this point. Torpor is really only able to **** with peoples' minds once he takes control of Feynriel, whose power allows him such things.

 

Both Wryme and Allure make it clear that they're sufficiently pissed off at our meddling to not care at this point.

 

And Idunna is a person who said she learned her magic from equal parts Desire and something else.

 

 

Demons of desire are amongst the most powerful, and are the ones most likely to seek out the living and actively trick them into a deal. These demons will exploit anything that can be coveted—wealth, power, lust—and they will always end up getting far more than they give. A desire demon's province is that of illusions and mind control.

 

Strongest of all demons are those of pride. These are the most feared creatures to loose upon the world: Masters of magic and in possession of vast intellect, they are the true schemers. It is they who seek most strongly to possess mages, and will bring other demons across the Veil in numbers to achieve their own ends—although what that might be has never been discovered. A greater pride demon, brought across the veil, would threaten the entire world.

 

Codex Entry: Demonic Possession

 

 

The most powerful demons yet encountered are the pride demons, perhaps because they, among all their kind, most resemble men; as clever and manipulative as the desire demon, with a penchant for cruel irony that is almost human. While the demons of desire largely engage in the bribery of mortals, pride will use mortals' own best nature against them. Clever men outwit themselves. Strong men crush themselves. Humble men forget themselves. Jealous men fear themselves. They turn corruption and ruin into an art.

 

—From Beyond the Veil: Spirits and Demons by Enchanter Mirdromel

 

Note how it says a Pride Demon is just as clever and manipulative as a Desire Demon. A Pride Demon has the same level of mind control as a Desire Demon, confirmed separately here:

 

 

Desire Demon Codex

 

They are manipulated by illusions and deceit if not outright mind control, although these demons are reluctant to resort to such crude measures. Instead, they seem to take great pleasure in corruption. The greater the deceit, the greater their victory.

 

Only demons of pride prove more fearsome opponents when roused. Their abilities to affect the mind allow them to assume disguises and even alter the environment to their purposes, not to mention the great strength and speed they possess if they should have to resort to more physical means. Most often a desire demon will attempt to bargain its way to freedom if overpowered—many stories exist that depict mages defeating desire demons to the point where a wish can be wrested from them. It should be noted that in such stories the demon almost always gets the upper hand even when the mage thinks his wish has been granted.

 

The use of the words "more fearsome" is clear that they possess the same capabilities as a Desire Demon, and then some. So to say that the idea of the companions being mind-controlled has nothing going for it isn't quite accurate.

 

To sum up:

 

1) Three separate codex entries

2) the Companions saying they were mind-controlled.

 

As for Torpor, it's made clear that Sloth Demons don't necessarily mind control you so much as they sap your strength, your will, and leave you unable to care.

 

Which is why Merrill advises us to think active thoughts to combat it. So if Hawke fell victim to it, it's not because their mind was controlled... it's because their will was drained.

 

 

 

The truth is that demons of sloth are named so because this is the portion of the human psyche that they feed upon. Doubt. Apathy. Entropy. They seek to spread these things. The sloth demon hides in its forms, a master of shapes and disguises, always in the last place you look... and from its hiding place it spreads its influence. A community afflicted by a demon of sloth could soon become a dilapidated pit where injustices are allowed to pass without comment, and none of the residents could be aware that such a change has even taken place. The sloth demon weakens, tires, tears at the edges of consciousness and would much rather render its victim helpless than engage in a true conflict. Such creatures are best faced only with a great deal of will, and only with an eye to piercing their many disguises.

 

Sloth Demon codex

[Vaseldwa]

Its a love/hate thing when it comes to Viv, and I only recruit her if I am siding with the templars. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Because in the lore, Sloth Demons can't use mind control. Only Desire Demons and Pride Demons, and both are loathe to use it if they can avoid it because they deem it crude. This is in a codex, in fact, and hasn't been contradicted to this point. Torpor is really only able to **** with peoples' minds once he takes control of Feynriel, whose power allows him such things.

 

Both Wryme and Allure make it clear that they're sufficiently pissed off at our meddling to not care at this point.

 

And Idunna is a person who said she learned her magic from equal parts Desire and something else.

 

 

 

Note how it says a Pride Demon is just as clever and manipulative as a Desire Demon. A Pride Demon has the same level of mind control as a Desire Demon, confirmed separately here:

 

 

The use of the words "more fearsome" is clear that they possess the same capabilities as a Desire Demon, and then some. So to say that the idea of the companions being mind-controlled has nothing going for it isn't quite accurate.

 

To sum up:

 

1) Three separate codex entries

2) the Companions saying they were mind-controlled.

 

As for Torpor, it's made clear that Sloth Demons don't necessarily mind control you so much as they sap your strength, your will, and leave you unable to care.

 

Which is why Merrill advises us to think active thoughts to combat it. So if Hawke fell victim to it, it's not because their mind was controlled... it's because their will was drained.

 

 

Sloth Demon codex

 

You do realize that all of this only serves to make SolASS look even more wrong about the Fade as I originally said, right? 

 

I was not denying that they had mind-control abilities, I know they can, I just do not believe it happened to any of the companions. I truly believe they all cracked. It is notable that Caress cannot get Merrill, Fenris, or Varric to turn (or, she did not try). Similarly, Wryme cannot make Isabela or Aveline turn either (or, again, did not bother). I bet they would both fail to turn Bethany (Carver OTOH would probably fall to both, lol). I do not remember the companions claiming anything after the quest that precludes them acting on their own volition either.

[Excella Gionne]

She's like another Ashley. It's a love and hate relationship, and sometimes you just can't stand her. Although, Vivienne wins by being very well written character. Bioware's little bug with Ashley's dialogue in ME1 caused a long-term effect of hate that I don't think will end, not to mention that she tells you to go to hell.

[Boost32]

Heck, doesn't Vivienne caring for Bastien seemingly change if she disapproves or approves? Like if she approves of the Inquisitor she comes across as more sympathetic and caring, but if she disapproves she'll admit that she used the Inquisitor and Bastien to advance her own position?

Bastien data files says she wants to cure him, she genuily cares about him.

[LOLandStuff]

Its a love/hate thing when it comes to Viv, and I only recruit her if I am siding with the templars. 

 

I recruit her for the Circle throne.

[Xilizhra]

It is 100% true.

 

Never seeks power?? The Divine is arguably the highest power in Thedas, and she makes it very clear she wants that position after her companion-quest.

 

And no, Leliana is not primarily devoted to serving people. She may have been in DA:O, but she is a very different person in Inquisition. To name one example, Leliana says to hell with Kirkwall. Given the quest to annex it, she helps you support SeaBass. If given the quest to aid its recovery, she says forget it.

Leliana doesn't seek power as an end in itself; she only wants the position of Divine as a means to an end.

 

Also, in the Kirkwall things, her plan for annexing Kirkwall is specifically to trick Sebastian into thinking the Inquisition is still on his side, while making Kirkwall's core virtually impossible to conquer.

 

 

You do realize that all of this only serves to make SolASS look even more wrong about the Fade as I originally said, right? 

 

I was not denying that they had mind-control abilities, I know they can, I just do not believe it happened to any of the companions. I truly believe they all cracked. It is notable that Caress cannot get Merrill, Fenris, or Varric to turn (or, she did not try). Similarly, Wryme cannot make Isabela or Aveline turn either (or, again, did not bother). I bet they would both fail to turn Bethany (Carver OTOH would probably fall to both, lol). I do not remember the companions claiming anything after the quest that precludes them acting on their own volition either.

Solas is perfectly correct about the Fade when not talking about demons who've been supercharged by feeding on a dreamer, a situation that never appeared in Inquisition.

 

And Merrill, in fact, says exactly that, that she had no idea why she was going along with Wryme because she knew that one can't trust demons.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Leliana doesn't seek power as an end in itself; she only wants the position of Divine as a means to an end.

 

Nobody seeks power just for the sake of having it. That is a myth perpetrated by those who fear and want to villainize any given person they see seeking power.

 

After all, when have good intentions ever stopped people from abusing their authority?

 

Also, in the Kirkwall things, her plan for annexing Kirkwall is specifically to trick Sebastian into thinking the Inquisition is still on his side, while making Kirkwall's core virtually impossible to conquer.

 

So? Kirkwall still lost ground to his army when the option existed to kick him out altogether. Casualties take place either way, but Leliana helps him occupy a good chunk of the city. What about her outright refusal to aid Kirkwall?

 

Oh, here's another one for you: when faced with refugees that some politically-unimportant nobleman finds disgusting -- due mainly to the presence of elves and mages among them -- Leliana advocates "harassing" them to earn the noble's favor. If you want to actually help the downtrodden, you pick Cullen.

 

Solas is perfectly correct about the Fade when not talking about demons who've been supercharged by feeding on a dreamer, a situation that never appeared in Inquisition.

If they were "supercharged," why could Caress not turn Merrill, Fenris, or Varric? Why could Wryme not turn Aveline or Isabela?
 

And Merrill, in fact, says exactly that, that she had no idea why she was going along with Wryme because she knew that one can't trust demons.

Saying "I don't know why I did ___" is not saying "I was mind-controlled." Sometimes people do stupid things out of sloppy thinking or otherwise poor judgment and say "Sorry, 'not sure what I was thinking" afterwards. I say that, myself. So, while Merrill may be left wondering, it is pretty clear to me what happened: Wryme dangled the thing she desires deeply in front of her and Merrill accepted the offer it made her.

 

Which leads me to my next point: she (and, by extension, the other companions) may have indeed benefited from the demon. After all, Hawke can deal with Torpor and walk out with new power as a result. Caress and Wryme have much greater power, and extracting vengeance from Hawke may have pleased them enough to reward the companion they turned. Hawke bested them in the ensuing fight though and never gave them that chance.