400 réponses à ce sujet

[Korva]

People who claim Vivienne cares about nothing but herself clearly aren't paying attention. This is actual dialogue from the game.

 

Sure, she can make noise about that sort of thing, and I do believe she means it ... on an abstract level. And as long as everyone remembers their place: beneath her. When it comes to what truly counts i.e. actually interacting with real people, though, she is and remains an unapologetic assh*le.

 

I keep trying to think of a way that would make Vivienne more palatable without changing what she is. Here's the thing other thing that bothers me about her behavior, aside from the fact that it is inacceptable in and of itself: it conflicts with a supposedly highly intelligent and socially savvy character. Anyone with half a brain knows that you don't sh*t where you eat, meaning even if she holds everyone around her in abject contempt, it is not in her own best interest to flaunt that as she does. Her presence among these people -- and thus whatever Game-related antics she intends to use them for -- depends on their good will. Her LIFE depends on their good will. Deliberately antagonizing a political tool "ally" is a bad idea. Deliberately antagonizing the people you fight with is even worse. She should be fostering unit cohesion, not undermining it.

 

Vivienne could not have come as far as she has without brains and discipline. The way she acts around the inner circle displays neither trait. The only explanations I can come up with for that are 1) bad writing or 2) an even greater display of condescension than her words reveal on their own. As in, "Of course I can adapt to different social situations if I want to. Of course I can treat people in a way that doesn't clearly show how little I think of them. But you, my poor darlings, are not even worth that effort. Why would you even think you are worth the effort?"

 

I don't know. It just seems like such a waste that a character like this does not, in the end, come across as a brilliant social and political mastermind whose presence is a boon for a fledging world power even if it comes with a cost, but a petty assh*le you can't do anything about because the game won't let you kick her out or kick her into shape.

[Lumix19]

Sure, she can make noise about that sort of thing, and I do believe she means it ... on an abstract level. And as long as everyone remembers their place: beneath her. When it comes to what truly counts i.e. actually interacting with real people, though, she is and remains an unapologetic assh*le.

 

I keep trying to think of a way that would make Vivienne more palatable without changing what she is. Here's the thing other thing that bothers me about her behavior, aside from the fact that it is inacceptable in and of itself: it conflicts with a supposedly highly intelligent and socially savvy character. Anyone with half a brain knows that you don't sh*t where you eat, meaning even if she holds everyone around her in abject contempt, it is not in her own best interest to flaunt that as she does. Her presence among these people -- and thus whatever Game-related antics she intends to use them for -- depends on their good will. Her LIFE depends on their good will. Deliberately antagonizing a political tool "ally" is a bad idea. Deliberately antagonizing the people you fight with is even worse. She should be fostering unit cohesion, not undermining it.

 

Vivienne could not have come as far as she has without brains and discipline. The way she acts around the inner circle displays neither trait. The only explanations I can come up with for that are 1) bad writing or 2) an even greater display of condescension than her words reveal in and of themselves. As in, "Of course I can adapt to different social situations if I want to. Of course I can treat people in a way that doesn't clearly show how little I think of them. But you, my poor darlings, are not even worth that effort."

 

I don't know. It just seems like such a waste that a character like this does not, in the end, come across as a brilliant social and political mastermind whose presence is a boon for a fledging world power even if it comes with a cost, but a petty assh*le you can't do anything about because the game won't let you kick her out or kick her into shape.

It's sad and hilarious that I could literally imagine Vivienne saying this, it sounds so much like her.

[CronoDragoon]

I keep trying to think of a way that would make Vivienne more palatable without changing what she is. Here's the thing other thing that bothers me about her behavior, aside from the fact that it is inacceptable in and of itself: it conflicts with a supposedly highly intelligent and socially savvy character. Anyone with half a brain knows that you don't sh*t where you eat, meaning even if she holds everyone around her in abject contempt, it is not in her own best interest to flaunt that as she does. Her presence among these people -- and thus whatever Game-related antics she intends to use them for -- depends on their good will. Her LIFE depends on their good will. Deliberately antagonizing a political tool "ally" is a bad idea. Deliberately antagonizing the people you fight with is even worse. She should be fostering unit cohesion, not undermining it.

 

The combat portion of this is it's own thing, and you probably aren't wrong there, but she acts pretty respectful towards those in the Inquisition who are actually politically important. I don't recall her being nasty to the Inquisitor, Cassandra, or the Advisors. But you are right that she makes no effort to hide contempt towards someone if it is strategically safe to openly ridicule them (Sera, Blackwall).

 

That also doesn't mean she is contemptuous towards anyone politically unimportant, however. Her and Varric get along pretty well, for example. She is simply vicious towards people she doesn't like that aren't important.

[Xilizhra]

Nobody seeks power just for the sake of having it. That is a myth perpetrated by those who fear and want to villainize any given person they see seeking power.

 

After all, when have good intentions ever stopped people from abusing their authority?

Vivienne seeks power to avoid being irrelevant.

 

 

So? Kirkwall still lost ground to his army when the option existed to kick him out altogether. Casualties take place either way, but Leliana helps him occupy a good chunk of the city. What about her outright refusal to aid Kirkwall?

 

Oh, here's another one for you: when faced with refugees that some politically-unimportant nobleman finds disgusting -- due mainly to the presence of elves and mages among them -- Leliana advocates "harassing" them to earn the noble's favor. If you want to actually help the downtrodden, you pick Cullen.

Leliana's more helpful to Kirkwall than Josephine was in Annexing Kirkwall. As for the rest... what, you think that two war table missions are enough to claim that Leliana doesn't care about helping other people? She's the only one who rededicates the Chantry to the principle of charity.

 

 

If they were "supercharged," why could Caress not turn Merrill, Fenris, or Varric? Why could Wryme not turn Aveline or Isabela?

No real hooks into their respective sphere of influence.

 

 

Saying "I don't know why I did ___" is not saying "I was mind-controlled." Sometimes people do stupid things out of sloppy thinking or otherwise poor judgment and say "Sorry, 'not sure what I was thinking" afterwards. I say that, myself. So, while Merrill may be left wondering, it is pretty clear to me what happened: Wryme dangled the thing she desires deeply in front of her and Merrill accepted the offer it made her.

 

Which leads me to my next point: she (and, by extension, the other companions) may have indeed benefited from the demon. After all, Hawke can deal with Torpor and walk out with new power as a result. Caress and Wryme have much greater power, and extracting vengeance from Hawke may have pleased them enough to reward the companion they turned. Hawke bested them in the ensuing fight though and never gave them that chance.

It's equally clear to me that, given Wryme's utterly spurious claims, Merrill never would have fallen for them normally and did so only because of Fenyriel's power. Wryme claims to be stronger than Audacity, but melts extremely quickly when actually fought.

[Lumix19]

The combat portion of this is it's own thing, and you probably aren't wrong there, but she acts pretty respectful towards those in the Inquisition who are actually politically important. I don't recall her being nasty to the Inquisitor, Cassandra, or the Advisors. But you are right that she makes no effort to hide contempt towards someone if it is strategically safe to openly ridicule them (Sera, Blackwall).

 

That also doesn't mean she is contemptuous towards anyone politically unimportant, however. Her and Varric get along pretty well, for example. She is simply vicious towards people she doesn't like that aren't important.

She can be pretty nasty to the Inquisitor if you don't make choices she agrees with. That's probably to do with the realisation that you aren't listening to her and probably aren't about to start. A tool you can't use is no tool at all.

[CronoDragoon]

She can be pretty nasty to the Inquisitor if you don't make choices she agrees with. That's probably to do with the realisation that you aren't listening to her and probably aren't about to start. A tool you can't use is no tool at all.

 

That may be true. I've never seen Vivienne's low-approval scenes since it's easy to gain approval for her even when picking important decisions she doesn't agree with.

[Lumix19]

Vivienne seeks power to avoid being irrelevant.

 

 

Leliana's more helpful to Kirkwall than Josephine was in Annexing Kirkwall. As for the rest... what, you think that two war table missions are enough to claim that Leliana doesn't care about helping other people? She's the only one who rededicates the Chantry to the principle of charity.

 

 

No real hooks into their respective sphere of influence.

 

 

It's equally clear to me that, given Wryme's utterly spurious claims, Merrill never would have fallen for them normally and did so only because of Fenyriel's power. Wryme claims to be stronger than Audacity, but melts extremely quickly when actually fought.

I'm on the fence about the mind control thing but I would point out that it's possible that no matter how supercharged Wryme and Caress were some companions might just not be vulnerable. Demons prey on desire or pride but if you don't have anything to latch on to being powerful might not cut it. Becoming more powerful doesn't necessarily mean you can do anything, it might just mean becoming better at what you can already do.

 

 

That may be true. I've never seen Vivienne's low-approval scenes since it's easy to gain approval for her even when picking important decisions she doesn't agree with.

I'm always friends with her by the end too but I did have her rearrange my furniture once and she's quite mean about it when you confront her.

[Qun00]

I do love how Solas always wins when there's party banter with him and Vivienne.

That may be true. I've never seen Vivienne's low-approval scenes since it's easy to gain approval for her even when picking important decisions she doesn't agree with.

[congokong]

Given that it's blatantly obvious that Hawke can resist Torpor...

 

???

 

It's called role-playing. You choose if your character can resist, or if they even care to.

[Shechinah]

(to Qun00) Not always, I believe. There is the party banter in which Vivienne points out Solas set himself on fire and at the end of the banter, Solas ends it by replying that he got the fire put out... eventually.  

[Korva]

But you are right that she makes no effort to hide contempt towards someone if it is strategically safe to openly ridicule them (Sera, Blackwall).

 

That also doesn't mean she is contemptuous towards anyone politically unimportant, however. Her and Varric get along pretty well, for example. She is simply vicious towards people she doesn't like that aren't important.

 

Thing is, it isn't strategically safe or smart to do that, and these people aren't unimportant. As much as it may rankle her, in the Inquisition these are her peers. She has no rank or power here. If the Inquisitor trusts and values these people, then pissing condescension all over them is begging for trouble and a direct challenge to the Inquisitor's leadership. Besides, does Madame de Fer the super-politico really want to be the one openly stirring up crap, especially if she does not yet know if the Inquisitor would back her up? Why not let the less socially adept people be the crap-stirrers while she, all smooth and poised and in control, might subtly provoke them into looking bad but outwardly remains uninvolved and above it all?

 

Again, Vivienne is supposed to be smart, disciplined and socially adept. Someone like that should be able to -- at the very least -- make a credible attempt at fitting in, instead of deliberately and unabashedly rocking the boat to the point of capsizing it. She doesn't have to like it, she doesn't have to fraternize and be buddies (though it would help her standing and make her position stronger if she did, or pretended to), but she could at least be non-disruptive. Surely she's done "worse" in her never-ending quest for more personal power.

 

(As for Varric, she starts out treating him like dirt too -- that only changes when he becomes useful to her.)

[Lumix19]

(to Qun00) Not always, I believe. There is the party banter in which Vivienne points out Solas set himself on fire and at the end of the banter, Solas ends it by replying that he got the fire put out... eventually.  

I like that. It's a bit like Dumbledore's "I set the bed curtains on fire", just some of the amusing anecdotes that can happen to mages. It's probably why Solas is bald, it's harder to put out flaming hair.

[Qun00]

(to Qun00) Not always, I believe. There is the party banter in which Vivienne points out Solas set himself on fire and at the end of the banter, Solas ends it by replying that he got the fire put out... eventually.

Ah, but it didn't get under his skin.

On a second note, I just went through Vivienne's entire party banter dialogue in the wiki. She pretty much insults most companions. There are exceptions but let's be honest, the reasons are obvious in their interaction.

The Iron Bull gets along with Vivienne because he's completely submissive around her. Cassandra is famous, and that earns points with someone obsessed with notoriety. And Varric, well... he's Varric.

[congokong]

The Iron Bull gets along with Vivienne because he's completely submissive around her. Cassandra is famous, and that earns points with someone obsessed with notoriety. And Varric, well... he's Varric.

Fame doesn't stop her from being a royal B to the Inquisitor.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Vivienne seeks power to avoid being irrelevant.

 

lol... you use that explanation like a drunken man uses a lamp post: you lean on it rather than use it to see things better.

 

First off, mage-mundane relations are relevant to her... by virtue of being a mage. Not much may affect her directly anymore, but she has charges to look out for.

 

Second, do you think Vivienne cannot rise to prominence in a setting like Leliana's where the mages are free? Of course she can. She went to a prestigious Circle in Monsimmard, competed against their talent, and came out on top. It did not end there for her, either. She moved onto the toughest political arena in Thedas and carved out a respectable position... as a mage. She may even be a superior player of The Game than Leliana. If all mages are on level-ground, Vivienne instantly becomes one of the most formidable players on the field: (1) her magic is powerful; (2) she is well-educated; (3) she has connections beyond any other mage.

 

Leliana's reforms will allow any powerful mage to advance their selfish interests. Yet Vivienne does not approve. That shows she has interests beyond herself.

 

 

Leliana's more helpful to Kirkwall than Josephine was in Annexing Kirkwall. As for the rest... what, you think that two war table missions are enough to claim that Leliana doesn't care about helping other people? She's the only one who rededicates the Chantry to the principle of charity.

 

Josephine is not exactly some great example. Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty if you want to help people, and she is a wuss about that.

 

Two war tables where she gives her advice on how to approach a given problem say a lot about her character. Those are just what I remembered off the top of my head. At least, they are more than what you have to deny that Vivienne genuinely cares about mage-mundane relations: her (one) fear and self-serving conjecture.

 

I am not saying she does not care about people, just that it is not her primary concern as you claimed it was. If this was Leliana from DA:O we were talking about, then I would have agreed with you. Come Inquisition, she is not the same person anymore. Clearly she had to grow up quickly to be the Spymaster she has become. That is not a job that rewards altruism. So much depends on her getting results, and sometimes taking a hard line is the only way to get them. So she accepts the burden of being the monster sometimes to protect the interests of the group, in hopes that it works in the interest of everyone else. There is still good in her, but she has buried her innocence. It's kind of sad, really, but she has my respect for it. Nothing is ever easy at her level.

 

No real hooks into their respective sphere of influence.

 

So now you are basically ceding the point I made in the first place. You could have saved yourself time by deferring to my genius.

 

It's equally clear to me that, given Wryme's utterly spurious claims, Merrill never would have fallen for them normally and did so only because of Fenyriel's power. Wryme claims to be stronger than Audacity, but melts extremely quickly when actually fought.

 

What does strength have to do with it? Wryme could have still given Merrill power, whether it was relevant to her Eluvian or not.

 

Merrill summed it up when she stood by Wryme, saying that she could not put Hawke before her people. I doubt she would feel differently in her right mind.

 

I would like her even less if she did.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Here's the thing other thing that bothers me about her behavior, aside from the fact that it is inacceptable in and of itself: it conflicts with a supposedly highly intelligent and socially savvy character. Anyone with half a brain knows that you don't sh*t where you eat, meaning even if she holds everyone around her in abject contempt, it is not in her own best interest to flaunt that as she does. Her presence among these people -- and thus whatever Game-related antics she intends to use them for -- depends on their good will. Her LIFE depends on their good will. Deliberately antagonizing a political tool "ally" is a bad idea. Deliberately antagonizing the people you fight with is even worse. She should be fostering unit cohesion, not undermining it.

 

Eh, no. Being friends with the rest of them is really not that important for her at all. When they are on the field, they are going to need to work together to fight whoever they have to fight, friends or no. The only person with whom mutual respect could matter at all is the Inquisitor. On that note, Vivienne is very warm with an Inquisitor who shares her views or at least is amenable to them and willing to compromise her side and the other extreme. If the Inquisitor's views are radically different than hers, then she is probably not going to get the Inquisition's political support anyway, however friendly they may be.

 

Ah, but it didn't get under his skin.

On a second note, I just went through Vivienne's entire party banter dialogue in the wiki. She pretty much insults most companions. There are exceptions but let's be honest, the reasons are obvious in their interaction.

The Iron Bull gets along with Vivienne because he's completely submissive around her. Cassandra is famous, and that earns points with someone obsessed with notoriety. And Varric, well... he's Varric.

 

Solass probably never gets under Vivienne's skin either. Besides, the Pride Demon exchange between them was the best.

 

It's more than just fame with Cassandra, she and Vivienne see "eye-to-eye" (to quote one of the writers). If you ask Cassandra for her opinion of various Inquisition members, she speaks highly of Vivienne (and she does not speak highly of very many others). I think the only major decision where the two of them did not agree was at the Orlesian Ball (Cass as pro-Gaspard, Vivienne as pro-Celene).

 

Blackwall is supposed to be a Warden-Constable, not some nobody Warden.

 

She also has an amusing relationship with Dorian. They make jabs at each other, but it is friendly. And Dorian is a nobody.

[FiveThreeTen]

I like Vivienne. She is not dull and some of her banters are golden (especially with Dorian and Bull).

 

Cole might be my favourite companion and I didn't take offense on his behalf for what she says to him. She is convinced he is a demon. My characters generally disagree on that so be it.

 

I prefer Cassandra or Leliana as Divine though, simply because they have more Chantry connections and non-mages, thus held more legitimacy.

[Qun00]

Solass probably never gets under Vivienne's skin either. Besides, the Pride Demon exchange between them was the best.
 
It's more than just fame with Cassandra, she and Vivienne see "eye-to-eye" (to quote one of the writers). If you ask Cassandra for her opinion of various Inquisition members, she speaks highly of Vivienne (and she does not speak highly of very many others). I think the only major decision where the two of them did not agree was at the Orlesian Ball (Cass as pro-Gaspard, Vivienne as pro-Celene).
 
Blackwall is supposed to be a Warden-Constable, not some nobody Warden.
 
[font=trebuchet ms']She also has an amusing relationship with Dorian. They make jabs at each other, but it is friendly. And Dorian is a nobody.

I wouldn't say that.

Vivienne: So, an apostate?
Solas: That is correct, Enchanter. I did not train in your Circle.
Vivienne: Well, dear, I hope you can take care of yourself, should we encounter anything outside your experience.
Solas: I will try, in my own fumbling way, to learn from how you helped seal the rifts at Haven.
Solas: Ah, wait. My memory misleads me. You were not there.

And that's how it ends. No witty comeback nothing. Just silence.

I mentioned Cassandra's fame because most of their interaction focuses on that, and I mean a lot. Otherwise, someone with pro Circle views should be comfortable company.

No, certainly not just jabs. A few moments perhaps, but plenty of it is serious. The difference is that Dorian is very jaded at this point, and criticising Tevinter is the most ineffective way to offend him.

Vivienne calls Dorian a cockroach if she's in your party when he is introduced in Hushed Whispers, and he still laughs it off. It's not that he doesn't acknowledge it as an insult, but just the way he handles it.

But the tension is definitely there.

Dorian: How is it, Vivienne, that you weren't part of the rebellion with the rest of the southern mages?
Vivienne: Those of us outside of the Circles could not be compelled to revolt.
Dorian: Ah. Nothing like solidarity.
Vivienne: This from a man who hails from a nation where mages kill each other for sport.

[Boost32]

Vivienne: So, an apostate?
Solas: That is correct, Enchanter. I did not train in your Circle.
Vivienne: Well, dear, I hope you can take care of yourself, should we encounter anything outside your experience.
Solas: I will try, in my own fumbling way, to learn from how you helped seal the rifts at Haven.
Solas: Ah, wait. My memory misleads me. You were not there.

Solas hypocrisy at his best, "You werent there to help the Inquisition to seal the Rifts, but I was! I will only not mention those were my fault, I already knew what was going to happen and the magic used there was my magic so I already knew how to seal the rifts."

[TheTurtle]

I would just like to add that when it comes to Sera about 90% of the time she starts it and I really can't fault Vivienne for ending it. 

[Addai]

the magic used there was my magic

That was his point.

[Xilizhra]

lol... you use that explanation like a drunken man uses a lamp post: you lean on it rather than use it to see things better.

 

First off, mage-mundane relations are relevant to her... by virtue of being a mage. Not much may affect her directly anymore, but she has charges to look out for.

 

Second, do you think Vivienne cannot rise to prominence in a setting like Leliana's where the mages are free? Of course she can. She went to a prestigious Circle in Monsimmard, competed against their talent, and came out on top. It did not end there for her, either. She moved onto the toughest political arena in Thedas and carved out a respectable position... as a mage. She may even be a superior player of The Game than Leliana. If all mages are on level-ground, Vivienne instantly becomes one of the most formidable players on the field: (1) her magic is powerful; (2) she is well-educated; (3) she has connections beyond any other mage.

 

Leliana's reforms will allow any powerful mage to advance their selfish interests. Yet Vivienne does not approve. That shows she has interests beyond herself.

I don't think that follows. Vivienne disapproves of Leliana's plan because she believes that it would be doomed to failure, and if it was doomed to failure, the backlash against mages in general would hit herself.

 

 

Josephine is not exactly some great example. Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty if you want to help people, and she is a wuss about that.

 

Two war tables where she gives her advice on how to approach a given problem say a lot about her character. Those are just what I remembered off the top of my head. At least, they are more than what you have to deny that Vivienne genuinely cares about mage-mundane relations: her (one) fear and self-serving conjecture.

 

I am not saying she does not care about people, just that it is not her primary concern as you claimed it was. If this was Leliana from DA:O we were talking about, then I would have agreed with you. Come Inquisition, she is not the same person anymore. Clearly she had to grow up quickly to be the Spymaster she has become. That is not a job that rewards altruism. So much depends on her getting results, and sometimes taking a hard line is the only way to get them. So she accepts the burden of being the monster sometimes to protect the interests of the group, in hopes that it works in the interest of everyone else. There is still good in her, but she has buried her innocence. It's kind of sad, really, but she has my respect for it. Nothing is ever easy at her level.

Leliana resets to her Origins personality, more or less, when inspired. Even when steeled, she rededicates the Chantry to charity (more than Cassandra ever does). Helping people is her priority and her end, she's just willing to use darker means and sacrifice some of the few for the perceived good of the many. I don't always agree with everything Leliana does or suggests, but her intentions and goals are not primarily self-serving, unlike Vivienne's.

 

 

So now you are basically ceding the point I made in the first place. You could have saved yourself time by deferring to my genius.

I assure you that I'll defer to it when I find it. But the demons still can't control people their spheres don't touch.

 

 

What does strength have to do with it? Wryme could have still given Merrill power, whether it was relevant to her Eluvian or not.

 

Merrill summed it up when she stood by Wryme, saying that she could not put Hawke before her people. I doubt she would feel differently in her right mind.

 

I would like her even less if she did.

Merrill's conclusion is inherently illogical because there's no reason to believe an unbound demon would ever keep its end of a bargain. It's not a conclusion one would make if one was in one's right mind.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I wouldn't say that.

Vivienne: So, an apostate?
Solas: That is correct, Enchanter. I did not train in your Circle.
Vivienne: Well, dear, I hope you can take care of yourself, should we encounter anything outside your experience.
Solas: I will try, in my own fumbling way, to learn from how you helped seal the rifts at Haven.
Solas: Ah, wait. My memory misleads me. You were not there.

And that's how it ends. No witty comeback nothing. Just silence.

I mentioned Cassandra's fame because most of their interaction focuses on that, and I mean a lot. Otherwise, someone with pro Circle views should be comfortable company.

No, certainly not just jabs. A few moments perhaps, but plenty of it is serious. The difference is that Dorian is very jaded at this point, and criticising Tevinter is the most ineffective way to offend him.

Vivienne calls Dorian a cockroach if she's in your party when he is introduced in Hushed Whispers, and he still laughs it off. It's not that he doesn't acknowledge it as an insult, but just the way he handles it.

But the tension is definitely there.

Dorian: How is it, Vivienne, that you weren't part of the rebellion with the rest of the southern mages?
Vivienne: Those of us outside of the Circles could not be compelled to revolt.
Dorian: Ah. Nothing like solidarity.
Vivienne: This from a man who hails from a nation where mages kill each other for sport.

 

No, it's really not serious. Have you actually heard it, or are you reading it off of the wiki?

 

They are what one would call "frenemies."

[congokong]

Merrill's conclusion is inherently illogical because there's no reason to believe an unbound demon would ever keep its end of a bargain. It's not a conclusion one would make if one was in one's right mind.

I believe demons that actually make deals, instead of merely suggesting them, are forced to honor them.

[Zarathiel]

That was his point.

 

No it wasn't. Solas' point in that exchange was to tell Vivienne that he knows more about the magic causing the rifts than Vivienne does. Which is true.

 

And Boost32's point is that Solas is as responsible for the breach and the rifts as Corypheus is. Which is also true, since he stupidly gave Cory that orb.