Well, I did a poll on the most disliked character and surprise surprise,
Vivi won the category for Mage (even beating a known terrorist like Anders) and was second overall for most disliked.
Most disliked went to Sebastian though.
Wonder why people rather hate her than Anders.
Vivienne would probably only be disappointed that she did not win the whole shebang (most disliked period).
IDK about that. People wanted to romance her before they realized she had an nasty personality. But once the game actually came out, a lot of people went back in that statement.
Morrigan has a nasty, abusive, utterly intolerable personality, and people are still all over her. Being an assh*le or even a mass murdering warmonger has never been an obstacle to any character's popularity, as long as the nastiness, the abuse, the killing and so on are aimed at other people -- especially at authority figures, because as every gamer knows, authority figures are always incompetent at best and outright evil at worst. Unless it's us, of course. Our authority is perfect and above reproach, and anyone who says otherwise gets murderknifed. 
I think people were all over Morrigan because she was very nuanced, and she definitely had character development. You could see the beginning of her change, and how emotional she became before the final battle. She also excellent dialogue with Alistair and a snarky sense of humor.
With Vivienne, there is no real character development. She remains the same throughout. And she doesn't have the sense of humor that Morrigan-fans, and by fans I mean me, loved about her.
Morrigan was spiteful and rude, but she had depth. Vivienne is spiteful and rude, and she is a one-trick pony.
^Gonna have to disagree with you there. To me, Vivienne a lot more compelling than Morrigan.
I romanced Morrigan, and can identify with her character a lot. Still, her character has never been stellar, in my eyes. In DA:O she is new to the outside world. Her perspective is unique, but kind of irrelevant, since she knows basically nothing about how things work. She is not known to be interested in anything beyond protecting herself from Flemeth, which is not very interesting. Quite frankly, I believe she is overrated, with her exotic sex-appeal and Claudia Black voice-acting carrying her. I cannot find too many other reasons to be high on her.
With the OGB arc I thought Morrigan may have been destined to some great things and would be revealed to have some interest in the world beyond her own survival. Come DA:I, however, that plot thread went nowhere meaningful, and it looks like Morrigan's story is just about over.
Vivienne's character begins, to our eyes, where Morrigan's basically ends: a ranking mage in the Orlesian Court. It potentially ends with her being a truly revolutionary figure in Thedas (a mage Divine), which was what my hopes for Morrigan were before then. As such, Vivienne has become one of my new favorite characters, whereas Morrigan is somewhere in the middle of the road for me (like her, don't love her).
I think people were all over Morrigan because she was very nuanced, and she definitely had character development. You could see the beginning of her change, and how emotional she became before the final battle. She also excellent dialogue with Alistair and a snarky sense of humor.
With Vivienne, there is no real character development. She remains the same throughout. And she doesn't have the sense of humor that Morrigan-fans, and by fans I mean me, loved about her.
Morrigan was spiteful and rude, but she had depth. Vivienne is spiteful and rude, and she is a one-trick pony.
I love Morrigan, but what character development she had? She might have created a emotional bond with the Warden, but her personality didnt change, she stayed with her Darwinism view of the world.
People like her more because its very easy to get her approval up using gifts, this way they never had to deal with the nasty side of Morrigan, if the gifts didnt exist, a lot of her fan base would vanish, because few of them would have high approval with Morrigan.
Vivienne can have a very powerful friendship with the Inquisitor, with high approval she is always concerned with you, she gives you a enchanted ring (only companion in this game that gives you a gift), if you drunk from the Well she vow to find a way to free you from Mythal, if elected Divine and you ask her to rejoin the group she says "for you anything my dear", she already had won at The Game and would gain nothing, she know her life will be at stack but still help you.
Her conversation with Cole show a lot of her depth, show us that her opinions are not only lip service, she really believes what she says.
I love Morrigan, but what character development she had? She might have created a emotional bond with the Warden, but her personality didnt change, she stayed with her Darwinism view of the world.
People like her more because its very easy to get her approval up using gifts, this way they never had to deal with the nasty side of Morrigan, if the gifts didnt exist, a lot of her fan base would vanish, because few of them would have high approval with Morrigan.
Morrigan becoming friends with the Warden is a big deal, and in DAI she's clearly embraced motherhood.
People like her because she's funny, sexy and badass. End of story.
Morrigan becoming friends with the Warden is a big deal, and in DAI she's clearly embraced motherhood.
People like her because she's funny, sexy and badass. End of story.
ANd how she became the Warden friend? Did you do what she told you or you took the disapproval and gave her a lot of gifts? If it wasnt by the gifts she would not be friend/lover of a lot of people (I doubt you anulled the Circle, desecrated the Ashes used the elves for a blood magic sacrifice or left Redcliff ), and a lot of people would see her low approval scenes, (I doubt they would like her).
I agree with you, she is funny, sexy and badass, that why I love her 
, still by the end of DAO she did not change her views and in DAI (if she has Kieran) she matured a lot, but still hod a lot of her views that she had in DAO.
ANd how she became the Warden friend? Did you do what she told you or you took the disapproval and gave her a lot of gifts? If it wasnt by the gifts she would not be friend/lover of a lot of people (I doubt you anulled the Circle, desecrated the Ashes used the elves for a blood magic sacrifice or left Redcliff ), and a lot of people would see her low approval scenes, (I doubt they would like her).
I agree with you, she is funny, sexy and badass, that why I love her
Development =/ "totally changing your personality and views."
If there were no gifts, they'd have made it easier to get her approval in other ways, just as Patrick Weekes said they made Solas respond to people asking questions because otherwise it might be hard to earn his approval through plot decisions. It's kind of a meaningless point.
Development =/ "totally changing your personality and views."
If there were no gifts, they'd have made it easier to get her approval in other ways, just as Patrick Weekes said they made Solas respond to people asking questions because otherwise it might be hard to earn his approval through plot decisions. It's kind of a meaningless point.
And thats exactly my point, people can get high approval with Morrigan, but they completely ignore her views and her social darwinism, if there was no gift, no way to cheat the approval system, a lot of people wouldnt like her,
And thats exactly my point, people can get high approval with Morrigan, but they completely ignore her views and her social darwinism, if there was no gift, no way to cheat the approval system, a lot of people wouldnt like her,
That wasn't my point, however. It's not "cheating," it's how the game was designed. Is doing companion quests in DAI cheating?
Anyway, since I tended to play apostate mages, my Wardens naturally got along with her well. If someone else wanted to roleplay a Chantry-loving templar who romanced her, that's their game and not my business.
I never had a problem getting Morrigan's approval without having to drown her in gifts.
While with Vivienne, "I think mages are people and should be teatd like people," VIVIENNE GREATLY DISAPPROVES
Giving gift is not cheating, thats why I said "no gift, no way to cheat", cheating is using a mod to get high approval.That wasn't my point, however. It's not "cheating," it's how the game was designed. Is doing companion quests in DAI cheating?
Anyway, since I tended to play apostate mages, my Wardens naturally got along with her well. If someone else wanted to roleplay a Chantry-loving templar who romanced her, that's their game and not my business.
there are people who had problems getting approval from Morrigan?
Giving gift is not cheating, thats why I said "no gift, no way to cheat", cheating is using a mod to get high approval.
You dont need to roleplay a Chantry loving templars. Help people in Redcliff, destroy the Anvil, dont desacrate the Ashes, help the Circle and save Connor to see how well your relationship with Morrigan will be without gifts.
Actually, the Warden can address to Morrigan that she could have been one of the Circle mages, specifically: "You could have been one of them, if things were different." This can persuade Morrigan, and she will concede, "I could be here, had my mother not shielded me from the templars, so I am to show sympathy? My mother often said that things are the way they are, because they could not have been any other way. I always questioned this." There is no loss of approval.
ANd how she became the Warden friend? Did you do what she told you or you took the disapproval and gave her a lot of gifts? If it wasnt by the gifts she would not be friend/lover of a lot of people (I doubt you anulled the Circle, desecrated the Ashes used the elves for a blood magic sacrifice or left Redcliff ), and a lot of people would see her low approval scenes, (I doubt they would like her).
I agree with you, she is funny, sexy and badass, that why I love her
Really, it's not hard at all to gain most of your approval with her via conversations.
I never had a problem getting Morrigan's approval without having to drown her in gifts.
While with Vivienne, "I think mages are people and should be teatd like people," VIVIENNE GREATLY DISAPPROVES
Vivienne: I am the leader of the loyalist mages.
Inquisitor: I agree with the rebel mages' cause.
Player: I don't understand! Why can't Vivienne get along with my PC??
xD
Vivienne's approval is really not that difficult to get. There are plenty of ways to reflect mage-Libertarian views besides directly stating "I agree with your political rivals!!"
Vivienne: I am the leader of the loyalist mages.
Inquisitor: I agree with the rebel mages' cause.
Player: I don't understand! Why can't Vivienne get along with my PC??
xD
Vivienne's approval is really not that difficult to get. There are plenty of ways to reflect mage-Libertarian views besides directly stating "I agree with your political rivals!!"
Yes, but generally, they involve lying to her or greatly stretching the truth. Which would imply that gaining friendship with her means that you've duped her.
Yes, but generally, they involve lying to her or greatly stretching the truth. Which would imply that gaining friendship with her means that you've duped her.
Yes, but generally, they involve lying to her or greatly stretching the truth. Which would imply that gaining friendship with her means that you've duped her.
Except when they do not.
Instead of saying "the mages should be free" (how anyone can choose this with her and expect their approval to go unscathed is beyond me), one could choose "this chaos helps no one" which she will greatly approve of. One could also say "the Templars made their beds," which she will slightly approve of.
You also have her long string of Truth or Dare war-table missions which get her approval. Also she has that fetch quest.
You do not suffer an approval hit from Vivienne after allying with the mages if you do not talk to her. Or, if you are willing, you can earn approval back by agreeing to take various precautions. Capping it off with saying that mages should be in the Chantry gets great approval as well, which effectively negates allying with them.
If you go the Templar path instead, Vivienne only slightly disapproves of disbanding them. She also is the least disapproving of recruiting the Grey Wardens.
In other conversations, you simply need to hold practical viewpoints.
It can be done, if you are tactful (big if indeed, though).
Really you don't even need that much tact. I didn't even really care about earning approval so I just did whatever I felt like and I was still friends with everybody at the end. No doubt so each character could complete their story arc. Makes me miss the friendship/rivalry of DA2, I would have liked to have seen a rivalry with Vivienne.Except when they do not.
Instead of saying "the mages should be free" (how anyone can choose this with her and expect their approval to go unscathed is beyond me), one could choose "this chaos helps no one" which she will greatly approve of. One could also say "the Templars made their beds," which she will slightly approve of.
You also have her long string of Truth or Dare war-table missions which get her approval. Also she has that fetch quest.
You do not suffer an approval hit from Vivienne after allying with the mages if you do not talk to her. Or, if you are willing, you can earn approval back by agreeing to take various precautions. Capping it off with saying that mages should be in the Chantry gets great approval as well, which effectively negates allying with them.
If you go the Templar path instead, Vivienne only slightly disapproves of disbanding them. She also is the least disapproving of recruiting the Grey Wardens.
In other conversations, you simply need to hold practical viewpoints.
It can be done, if you are tactful (big if indeed, though).
Boy am I ever with you on that!
Rivalry was frickin great. I actually take that approach with SolASS -- deliberately gaming the system so that he hates my Inq. When playing normally I was just kind of stuck in approval no-man's-land with him (+for questions and Grey Warden exile, - for Templar alliance and disagreement stemming from said questions).
Except when they do not.
Instead of saying "the mages should be free" (how anyone can choose this with her and expect their approval to go unscathed is beyond me), one could choose "this chaos helps no one" which she will greatly approve of. One could also say "the Templars made their beds," which she will slightly approve of.
You also have her long string of Truth or Dare war-table missions which get her approval. Also she has that fetch quest.
You do not suffer an approval hit from Vivienne after allying with the mages if you do not talk to her. Or, if you are willing, you can earn approval back by agreeing to take various precautions. Capping it off with saying that mages should be in the Chantry gets great approval as well, which effectively negates allying with them.
If you go the Templar path instead, Vivienne only slightly disapproves of disbanding them. She also is the least disapproving of recruiting the Grey Wardens.
In other conversations, you simply need to hold practical viewpoints.
It can be done, if you are tactful (big if indeed, though).
I rather doubt that Vivienne would have greatly approved of "this chaos helps no one" if it was intended to mean "the war should end, now, with the mages being free." Which is what my opinion was. So my saying such would be a lie.
Um, no. It's called "tact" -- you realize that endorsing the platform of her political rivals is not wise, so you avoid it.
You say and mean that the chaos helps no one. That you want the mages free is another matter entirely.
Um, no. It's called "tact" -- you realize that endorsing the platform of her political rivals is not wise, so you avoid it.
You say and mean that the chaos helps no one. That you want the mages free is another matter entirely.
Is Vivienne's character really geared towards liking people opposed to all she stands for if they're tactful about it?
I think people were all over Morrigan because she was very nuanced, and she definitely had character development. You could see the beginning of her change, and how emotional she became before the final battle. She also excellent dialogue with Alistair and a snarky sense of humor.
With Vivienne, there is no real character development. She remains the same throughout. And she doesn't have the sense of humor that Morrigan-fans, and by fans I mean me, loved about her.
Morrigan was spiteful and rude, but she had depth. Vivienne is spiteful and rude, and she is a one-trick pony.
I think a lot of Morrigan's appeal lies in her voice actress and that unlike most other companions, she's gleefully mean-spirited, caustic and largely indifferent to the plight of others, which is usually good for a laugh. Being a romance option doesn't hurt either. As for character development, there isn't any, at least not in Origins. Beyond her personal feelings toward the Warden, she never has a point where she comes to realize something about herself, or overcome some internal conflict. She believes what she believes and it never changes and is never challenged, and if you oppose her end goal, she leaves no matter what you ever did or said prior.
Obviously, Vivienne suffers from being separate from the plot, whereas Morrigan and Flemeth are major players. Heck, if you kick Morrigan out, she still comes back at some point for a certain plot point to occur.
I rather doubt that Vivienne would have greatly approved of "this chaos helps no one" if it was intended to mean "the war should end, now, with the mages being free." Which is what my opinion was. So my saying such would be a lie.
That line has nothing to do with mage freedom, since there's no expression on the matter one way or the other, so how could it be a lie? Whatever other intention you have with the line doesn't really matter. You could simply desire both the mages and Templars to be wiped out entirely. The only idea in the statement that matters is the wish to stop the conflict that's wreaking havoc throughout Thedas.
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