Guest_Imanol de Tafalla_*
I like Vivienne. She among the more sane and rational mage companions we have had in the franchise.
I also find it brilliant that she can become Archon Divine and grant mages the freedom to serve in the Chantry, among others. It is a testament to her pragmatism and overall understanding of reality.
I loved Vivienne.
Until I did her personal quest.
Dunno what happened, but it became very clear all at once that she is incredibly one dimensional and awful and I hate her.
Why? She was trying to save her lover, why its bad?I loved Vivienne.
Until I did her personal quest.
Dunno what happened, but it became very clear all at once that she is incredibly one dimensional and awful and I hate her.
Read my response again.
And get out of the "not like Vivienne" thread please.
If I wanted to be preached at by some Vivienne lover I'd go in that thread.
I wasnt preaching you, I was asking you a question. Don't answer it if you don't want.Read my response again.
And get out of the "not like Vivienne" thread please.
If I wanted to be preached at by some Vivienne lover I'd go in that thread.
In the end, she was kind of right about him though (LOL).
Is "lie, cheat, and steal kill" not the bread n' butter of the Orlesian well-to-do?
I wasnt preaching you, I was asking you a question. Don't answer it if you don't want.
@Tamyn: Agreed, she's a lot more palatable than Morrigan ... but seeing as how I abjectly hate Morrigan, that is damning with faint praise.
At any rate, I really wanted to like Vivienne. She looks so incredibly poised and badass, and I was hoping for a more nuanced and down-to-earth mage-perspective, like Wynne. But what absolutely killed the character for me is her arrogance. My number one, utterly non-negotiable requirement for a companion is being (at least) decent to those around them. If you do nothing but vomit your superiority complex over everyone you meet unless you want to manipulate them into doing you a favor, you're going on my sh*tlist at Transwarp speed. Permanently. I don't care how smart of skilled or useful you are, if you're not a team player but an actively disruptive influence, I want nothing to do with you. Being an assh*le is not clever or funny, and if there are never any negative consequences or if it makes other NPCs or my own character look like spineless wimps without agency to do something about it, it's even worse.
Vivienne is not my most-hated Inquisition character, but I do dislike her, never use her, and seriously question why she's even a companion. She'd make more sense as one of Josephine's agents. Plus, all her political potential is wasted by never being touched on, not even at Halamshiral -- the only political thing we see her do is try to hijack the Divine election. In other words, we are supposed to put up with this insufferable character because she's so important ... but we never once see her use her importance to benefit anyone but herself. Bad writing, really.
Is "lie, cheat, and
stealkill" not the bread n' butter of the Orlesian well-to-do?
Touche.
I guess then it's the influence of "Great Game"-nonsense. Corruption is dandy if you are graceful/charismatic... which Blackwall is not.
If I could, I would've made her Tranquil.
I really like her as a character but I don't like her as a person. She represents everything I despise in society.
She is a politician and everything is about appearances to her. She advises the Inquisitor on how to present himself as a power to be reckoned with even after Haven, but she sounds like a Sith at times in utterly crushing malcontents and using anger and fear as powerful motivators.
I find that if people complain about blood magic and blood mages, it's because of their influence over people's minds and how they can control a king or a grand cleric if they so desired. Vivienne is a social-climber who will do anything to achieve more power and influence for herself. She doesn't need blood magic to control the minds of kings or grand clerics. She's a master of The Game, and that means bribery, blackmail, subtle deaths are not things that are beneath her. Add in how casual she is about being feared and using anger as a motivator and she doesn't need blood mage to do the things blood mages are feared for the potential to do.
I dislike politicians and the 'games' they play, and Vivienne is the Game personified. But I do respect that she never does anything without a reason and that her opinions are backed up with good sense and she is a good example that mages can achieve great things.
I wish I could hear a Morrigan vs Vivienne debate, however. I'm taking Vivienne to the Arbor Wilds next time and not Solas in hope of getting some quality banter or debate between them.
In other words, we are supposed to put up with this insufferable character because she's so important ... but we never once see her use her importance to benefit anyone but herself. Bad writing, really.
This, I think, is the essence of what Vivienne truly is. She's not concerned about the plight of her fellow mages so much as she is about the plight of herself. She's less concerned with giving mages more power than she is giving herself more power.
And when she describes the qualities a Divine needs to have, she is clearly describing herself.
Blackwall says it well. She only joined the Inquisition to increase her own power.
I like Vivienne. She among the more sane and rational mage companions we have had in the franchise.
I also find it brilliant that she can becomeArchonDivine and grant mages the freedom to serve in the Chantry, among others. It is a testament to her pragmatism and overall understanding of reality.
This, I think, is the essence of what Vivienne truly is. She's not concerned about the plight of her fellow mages so much as she is about the plight of herself. She's less concerned with giving mages more power than she is giving herself more power.
And when she describes the qualities a Divine needs to have, she is clearly describing herself.
Blackwall says it well. She only joined the Inquisition to increase her own power.
That scene is exactly what I mean by making other characters (PC or NPC) look like spineless wimps without any agency, yes. It's a cardinal sin of writing -- if you can't make one character look good without trampling all over another, you've f*cked up and need to rethink your approach to a scene.
Guest_Imanol de Tafalla_*
I don't agree with the way Leliana wants to rush change, but Vivienne believes mages should never live outside Circle towers. Not even in the distant future.
While Vivienne is in favour of the Circle system (with a few minor tweaks), I don't recall her saying anything to that extreme.
Do you care to point where and when exactly she states that?
Never does she say "I agree that mages should be free, but there are better ways to achieve that goal". Her belief is that it should never be done.
This is not true.
Vivienne wants her fellow mages to have greater freedoms. However, she believes that this goal should be reached in a pragmatic manner by proving to the mundanes that mages can be trusted as citizens. This is evident in the coronation speech when the Herald & Co. first arrive at Skyhold. Mage IQs who tell the audience they will act as exemplars to the rest will receive Great Approval from Vivienne (Along with points towards her becoming Divine).
Furthermore, (Between CotJ/IHW & IYHSB) she Greatly Approves of the PC's suggestion that mages should be allowed to serve in the Chantry (Which will also grant Divine points), which goes to show that she seeks to bring reform by allowing mages to become members of it.
Though, this is all hardly unsurprising since she would not have gotten to where she is if she hadn't worked within the system.
As a character I (the player) think she's excellent.
My inquisitors however find her very frustrating, especially my mage inquisitors. She dismisses the mage rebels as malcontents (when she herself has spent almost her whole adult life outside the circle) and seems incapable of realising that her more-or-less positive experience of the circle is far from universal. Like, if she had no problems then everyone else is just being a whiny baby. Um. No, Viv. No.
She's incompetent, boring, and completely useless and possesses none of the qualities BioWare claims she does.
So yes, I would say she's pretty much narrative dead weight.
this is a thread about NOT liking Vivienne
Not exactly, in fact the thread title is a question addressing the readers' attitude toward her, so it does allow for Vivienne-affirmative statements too.
Vivienne and Blackwall are the two companions I genuinely don't personally like. In Vivienne's case unless you have super high friendship with her she treats you rather poorly. After her companion quest I was looking for the punch option when she has that fixed grin about how she used you to further her own ends. For someone so adept at "the game" Vivienne seems pretty stupid for enjoying making an enemy out of the Inquisitor/The Herald of Andraste.
That being said, she brings about occasional humor and thought-provoking discussion (like Solas). Her party banter can be especially amusing; rivaled only by Dorian's I say.
"No doubt Josephine is delighted to have a dirty mercenary with a history of deception watch her from behind a pillar."
Speaking of Vivienne/Blackwall, I especially dislike Blackwall for his simplistic anti-nobility mindset; in particular when he picks fights with Dorian but acts like a kicked puppy desperate for approval around Vivienne. Sexist much?
That scene is exactly what I mean by making other characters (PC or NPC) look like spineless wimps without any agency, yes. It's a cardinal sin of writing -- if you can't make one character look good without trampling all over another, you've f*cked up and need to rethink your approach to a scene.
This, a thousand times over. It's kinda sad how often Bioware ended up forgetting this very simple rule over the course of Inquisition, it's like Karen Traviss was the ghost-writer for the whole thing.
Look, I like Sera of all people and yet still ended up disliking Vivienne even though the two are surprisingly similar. I think the reason why is because at least on some level Sera actually deeply cares about others when push comes to shove, especially the powerless and the poor. Vivienne on the other hand claims that her loyalty is to the people of Thedas but whenever she's out in field and there's a chance to help the common folk she acts like a stuck up noble that has her nose up in the air. Worse yet is when she advocates abandoning the people at Haven when Corypheus attacks even through their literally right beside her, begging for help.
She also loves "the Game" even through in this very game we see how self-destructive and ugly the whole thing is and how Florienne uses it to almost destroy Orlais. Then there's the whole mage thing with her arguments for the need of the Circle looking decidedly weak and motivated by self-interest compared to Wynne's.
Honestly, I wish she'd drop the Iron Lady persona more enough and allow us to learn more about who she is outside of her opinions on magic and Orlais, which almost completely dominate her personality and dialogue. She brings back bad memories of Anders and Fenris, characters IMO who were too focused on their political stances with nothing else to bring to the table character-wise.
Look, I like Sera of all people and yet still ended up disliking Vivienne even though the two are surprisingly similar. I think the reason why is because at least on some level Sera actually deeply cares about others when push comes to shove, especially the powerless and the poor. Vivienne on the other hand claims that her loyalty is to the people of Thedas but whenever she's out in field and there's a chance to help the common folk she acts like a stuck up noble that has her nose up in the air. Worse yet is when she advocates abandoning the people at Haven when Corypheus attacks even through their literally right beside her, begging for help.
While she says it, she and Varric are the only one who approves if you save everyone at Haven, so what she says is the pragmatic thing to do but she doesnt want to let them die.
While she says it, she and Varric are the only one who approves if you save everyone at Haven, so what she says is the pragmatic thing to do but she doesnt want to let them die.
Oh I'm sure that she doesn't want them to die. I could of accepted the pragmatism of not saving them if they weren't so nearby to help. Its just that when it came to actually helping those in need, the same people she claims to be loyal to and who she'll mention frequently in her pro-Circle arguments, she decides to let them die instead of at least trying to save them.
It's pretty easy to approve of saving people after the fact and purposely neglecting to mention that you wanted to leave them all to die in the first place.
Look, I like Sera of all people and yet still ended up disliking Vivienne even though the two are surprisingly similar. I think the reason why is because at least on some level Sera actually deeply cares about others when push comes to shove, especially the powerless and the poor. Vivienne on the other hand claims that her loyalty is to the people of Thedas but whenever she's out in field and there's a chance to help the common folk she acts like a stuck up noble that has her nose up in the air.
I think back to Champions of the Just if you agree to do that flag ritual. If you place the people at the top Sera approves while Vivienne disapproves. lol I loved doing that ritual. When I lifted the flags my companions would comment on my choices. "A fitting place for our lady." But when asked my reasoning I admitted it was just random and Sera remarks on that being brilliant.
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