400 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

well that's..... a thing

[TheJediSaint]

Man, I miss out on a lot of content trying to be everyone's friend.

[andy6915]

wait she literally rearranges your furniture at low approval?

I wonder if she approves or disapproves if you legitimately thank her for it, because you like the new arrangement? Is that an option?

[stop_him]

Yep.  She brings movers in to rearrange the furniture as she sits on a couch and fans herself while passive-aggressively challenging your authority.  It's less about actually rearranging the furniture and more about totally undermining your authority and seeing if you will do anything back to her.  The problem with the scene is that they don't really give you many options but to sit there and take it.  I can see how that can be frustrating.  Personally, I love that scene and love her.  But I can see why people get annoyed if they already don't like her.  It's like salt in the wound.

Yeah... Bioware dropped the ball a bit with the inquisitor. We don't have as many satisfying options for dealing with companions. Where did Bioware put that murder knife? They were also too stingy with the Renegade Shepard punches this time around too.

[Bugsie]

My inquisitors reaction to that was the same as I would react to that BS in real life. I'd just walk away. If I had the opportunity that particular inquisitor would have liked to throw her out on her ass.

A lot of people's reaction to her is based on the kind of inquisitor they roll. If I had first rolled an inquisitor like I am now then I might have felt more enamoured of her. I'm more inclined to like her because of the kind of inquisitor I'm rolling (seeing her as an advisor to a younger Inquisitor)

People talk about hating Vivienne, honestly, I feel more disappointed rather than hate. Benovolence towards those who only hold your ideals isn't really benovolence IMHO.

[MisterJB]

I like her, respect her and fear her.

 

I like her because she and I agree on nearly everything and, consequently, she was actually quite warm. I remember her vowing to discover her a way to free the Inquisitor from Mythal.

 

I respect her because she is someone who came from low beginnings and rose by her intelligence alone.

 

I fear her because she is a mage who can use her brains.

People like Fiona are idiots whom we know what we can expect from. She'll throw a fit, get people killed, throw electricity and we stick a sword through her. End of story.

Vivienne will get herself elected to Divine under everyone's noses. Scary sh*t.

[The Baconer]

Vivienne will get herself elected to Divine under everyone's noses. Scary sh*t.

 

To be fair, that shouldn't even be possible.

[Inverse_Twilight]

I'm not a huge fan of Vivienne either. She isn't that great of a mage to use on Nightmare difficulty. I really only recruit her to get the extra scene in Sera's romance. I don't like her at all, but she is usually on good terms with my Inquisitor. I haven't actually had her disapproval conversion yet. I hate most of her banter as well. She is such a b*tch to almost everyone. That is another reason I leave her at skyhold all the time. She somehow became divine in my first playthrough and I was so pissed off. How is that even possible?!

[AntiChri5]

Look, I like Sera of all people and yet still ended up disliking Vivienne even though the two are surprisingly similar. I think the reason why is because at least on some level Sera actually deeply cares about others when push comes to shove, especially the powerless and the poor. Vivienne on the other hand claims that her loyalty is to the people of Thedas but whenever she's out in field and there's a chance to help the common folk she acts like a stuck up noble that has her nose up in the air. Worse yet is when she advocates abandoning the people at Haven when Corypheus attacks even through their literally right beside her, begging for help. 

 

She also loves "the Game" even through in this very game we see how self-destructive and ugly the whole thing is and how Florienne uses it to almost destroy Orlais. Then there's the whole mage thing with her arguments for the need of the Circle looking decidedly weak and motivated by self-interest compared to Wynne's. 

 

Honestly, I wish she'd drop the Iron Lady persona more enough and allow us to learn more about who she is outside of her opinions on magic and Orlais, which almost completely dominate her personality and dialogue. She brings back bad memories of Anders and Fenris, characters IMO who were too focused on their political stances with nothing else to bring to the table character-wise. 

I think that there isn't much Vivienne left under the Iron Lady persona.

 

The person she has been closest to her entire life is Duke Bastien. And she doesn't even love him. She feels that his power and wealth more then made up for his deficiencies. It's like she has been hardening herself bit by bit over the years, devoting all her time and energy to being the Iron Lady and now there isn't much else left.

[dragonflight288]

I think that there isn't much Vivienne left under the Iron Lady persona.

 

The person she has been closest to her entire life is Duke Bastien. And she doesn't even love him. She feels that his power and wealth more then made up for his deficiencies. It's like she has been hardening herself bit by bit over the years, devoting all her time and energy to being the Iron Lady and now there isn't much else left.

 

I don't know about that. 

 

I think that's all she knows how to act like.

 

Her dialogue with Cole has been getting really interesting. He became more like a spirit in my game and he picks things up. Like when she asks if he's in no danger of being bound by the Venatori, he picks up that she is actually concerned about him, and he says she doesn't want to reveal her true feelings because she feels compassion is a weakness. 

 

I think she is so involved with the Game that she doesn't know how to let drop the "Iron Lady" persona because to do so would also make her more exploitable by other players of it. 

 

I trust Cole to go straight to the heart of the situation and how someone feels. I don't trust Vivienne to be entirely honest with me about what she truly thinks and feels. As Morrigan pointed out in the Arbor Wilds with Vivienne and no Solas in the party, Vivienne is hardly one to be trusted, especially since her reasons for joining the Inquisition were entirely altruistic (with Morrigan's sense of sarcastic tone.)

 

Thanks to Cole, I know there's more under that icy personality. I just don't think Vivienne is even capable of dropping it because she sees her own feelings as a weakness. 

[Korva]

People talk about hating Vivienne, honestly, I feel more disappointed rather than hate.

 

Yep. As I said, I did want to like her but I simply can't. The character makes perfect sense as she is, and I think she's actually pretty well-written ... aside from the "be an utter assh*le, disrespect everyone and never face any consequences" problem, which she shares with every other condescending assh*le character including some very popular companions and various protagonists (if the player roleplays them that way), so it's hardly a unique flaw with her writing. Still, it's a supremely grating one. It just wouldn't be fair to only call her out on it but give everyone else in the same position, including the protagonists, a free pass.

 

When I compare Vivienne to Solas, who is another condescending, hypocritical, difficult-to-like assh*le character, the differences which make him mostly palatable and sometimes even genuinely likeable and her not are obvious. Solas isn't like that all the time and to everyone -- in fact, his blatant "assh*le moments" are relatively rare (which does not excuse them, mind). He doesn't wave his status and power around like he expects those around him to worshipfully lick his butt clean and thank him for that "honor". He grows to respect and truly bond with several other companions -- his relationship with Cole is maybe the most beautiful thing in the game, and he ends up getting along very well with Cassandra too, which at first glance is utterly unexpected. Once I felt like his friend and like he trusted my judgement -- which did take a while -- I had the impression that we could disagree, sometimes even strongly, but that this trust would remain and he would respect my ability to forge my own path. In short, to some extent he can learn and change and realize when he was wrong, while still remaining himself. (I don't like characters who are written to change their personality or worldview around the protagonist.)

 

None of this applies to Vivienne, at least in my impression. With her, it was as if every time she opened her mouth was an "assh*le moment" -- and I say that as someone who actually had pretty high approval with her and never even got the furniture scene. But even when she gave perfectly reasonable advice or opinions, the condescension and the sense that I simply could never, ever trust her or trust that whatever face she's currently showing me has anything to do with her true thoughts and feelings, were always present and just too much. And the way she treats the others is even worse and a direct, constant violation of my #1 iron rule: be decent to those around you or be gone.

 

There's a certain irony in the fact that Solas, the most "alien" character aside from Cole, the one who lies through his teeth from start to finish, still comes across as far more trustworthy than a supposedly masterful player of the social game like Vivienne. Maybe it's personal bias against career politicians and social power-grabbers, but I do think it's also partly because Solas at least tries to pretend and fit in, and at some point and with some people the pretense grows into real friendship ... while Vivienne doesn't even bother to try pretending.

[Boost32]

Yep. As I said, I did want to like her but I simply can't. The character makes perfect sense as she is, and I think she's actually pretty well-written ... aside from the "be an utter assh*le, disrespect everyone and never face any consequences" problem, which she shares with every other condescending assh*le character including some very popular companions and various protagonists (if the player roleplays them that way), so it's hardly a unique flaw with her writing. Still, it's a supremely grating one. It just wouldn't be fair to only call her out on it but give everyone else in the same position, including the protagonists, a free pass.

When I compare Vivienne to Solas, who is another condescending, hypocritical, difficult-to-like assh*le character, the differences which make him mostly palatable and sometimes even genuinely likeable and her not are obvious. Solas isn't like that all the time and to everyone -- in fact, his blatant "assh*le moments" are relatively rare (which does not excuse them, mind). He doesn't wave his status and power around like he expects those around him to worshipfully lick his butt clean and thank him for that "honor". He grows to respect and truly bond with several other companions -- his relationship with Cole is maybe the most beautiful thing in the game, and he ends up getting along very well with Cassandra too, which at first glance is utterly unexpected. Once I felt like his friend and like he trusted my judgement -- which did take a while -- I had the impression that we could disagree, sometimes even strongly, but that this trust would remain and he would respect my ability to forge my own path. In short, to some extent he can learn and change and realize when he was wrong, while still remaining himself. (I don't like characters who are written to change their personality or worldview around the protagonist.)

None of this applies to Vivienne, at least in my impression. With her, it was as if every time she opened her mouth was an "assh*le moment" -- and I say that as someone who actually had pretty high approval with her and never even got the furniture scene. But even when she gave perfectly reasonable advice or opinions, the condescension and the sense that I simply could never, ever trust her or trust that whatever face she's currently showing me has anything to do with her true thoughts and feelings, were always present and just too much. And the way she treats the others is even worse and a direct, constant violation of my #1 iron rule: be decent to those around you or be gone.

There's a certain irony in the fact that Solas, the most "alien" character aside from Cole, the one who lies through his teeth from start to finish, still comes across as far more trustworthy than a supposedly masterful player of the social game like Vivienne. Maybe it's personal bias against career politicians and social power-grabbers, but I do think it's also partly because Solas at least tries to pretend and fit in, and at some point and with some people the pretense grows into real friendship ... while Vivienne doesn't even bother to try pretending.

I had the inverse impression.
By the end of the game I saw what Solas truly was, a hypocrital liar who all he wanted was the orb, the Breach happened because of his mistakes, he didn't join the Inquisition to reapair the damage he had done, but to fulfill his ambitions. His scene with Flemth show how far he will go to complete his plans, even passing over his "friends" , if the Inquisitor goes against him, he will try to kill him/her.

Vivienne didn't join for altruistic reasons only. She joins because she saw the Inquisition as a forced who will influence the course of Thedas and she wants to influence it to her way, but she wants to bring order and make things to go back how they were, both for her ambition and because she truly believes its the best way for Thedas (imo).
To me, her friendship is one of the strongest in this game, she was always worrying about how the Inquisitor was (if you Frank from the well, she vows to find a way to free you from Mythal ), gave him counsel, when I helped her with the snow heart, she made sure my actions wasnt in vain and made the Inquisitor profit from it too and when my Inquisitor invited her back after she was elected Divine she said "For you anything, my dear", she already got what she wanted and still would risk her life to help my Inquisitor.
I find it funny when people say they couldn't trust her because I see her as one of the most loyal companion of the Inquisition, she is truly dedicated to those who are close to her (like Bastien and a high friendship Inquisitor ), and even when the Inquisitor makes everything to go against her, she will never betray you.
Other thing I find funny is how people say she is like a magister from Tevinter. She never used or considered using blood magic (Cole confirms it) and she got the permission to leave the Circles following the rules (if made Divine she gave the same oportunity to others mages), because of this she have my utmost respect.

[Xilizhra]

Other thing I find funny is how people say she is like a magister from Tevinter. She never used or considered using blood magic (Cole confirms it) and she got the permission to leave the Circles following the rules (if made Divine she gave the same oportunity to others mages), because of this she have my utmost respect.

Only because it suits her position as a mage in power in the south. If she lived in Tevinter, she'd use it with no qualms whatsoever.

[Boost32]

Only because it suits her position as a mage in power in the south. If she lived in Tevinter, she'd use it with no qualms whatsoever.

As always you try to make her a one sided person because you don't like her.
Cole says she don't use blood magic and when she says how she detest it and see those who use it as weak, he don't says she is lying, if she didn't truly believed he would say she was lying.

[TheLittleBird]

Only because it suits her position as a mage in power in the south. If she lived in Tevinter, she'd use it with no qualms whatsoever.

 

"My dear, you are aware of the fact that I'm repulsed by the sight of blood in close vicinity? Not to even mention the abhorrent stains it gets on one's clothes."

- Vivienne

[CathyMe]

My biggest gripe with her is how pretty much most characters (quizzie included) get neutered to make her seem "intelligent". I know some find it funny how bull is intimidated by her in party banter, but I honestly can't imagine how no one in the writing team raised their hand and said "Uhm, a man how is literally a bull on two feet being intimidated by a frail woman is pushing it, not to mention how OOC for IB is."( and no, the hat reminding him of tamassrans is not an excuse). And there is that  dreaded furniture scene. There is no reason I can headcannon to explain why my inquisitor would allow someone who is mooching of my organization to remain after she fully admits she is looking to take your position. It's like allowing someone in to your home and then they start changing everything while you just pout at it. Not to mention that if she really was smart, she wouldn't nonchalantly admit it to the person she is trying to replace while annoying said person.

For me, the level of hatred is past the point of simply wanting to not interact with her (like liara ), I want to actively see her suffer and see her arrogance smashed to bits (she is both an idiot and an arrogant, which is the combination I tolerate the least). The only thing close to punishment I can give her is recruit her and not interact with her once we reach skyhold, and just leave her at the stairs. Rather fitting for someone who likes being the center of attention.

[Jaison1986]

I had the inverse impression.
By the end of the game I saw what Solas truly was, a hypocrital liar who all he wanted was the orb, the Breach happened because of his mistakes, he didn't join the Inquisition to reapair the damage he had done, but to fulfill his ambitions. His scene with Flemth show how far he will go to complete his plans, even passing over his "friends" , if the Inquisitor goes against him, he will try to kill him/her.
 

 

Oh, really? How come Solas ocasionally approves if you help out the refugees in the Hinterlands and in other places? If he didn't actually cared about fixing his mistake, shouldn't we expect him to stay neutral? When you first arrive at the village in the Hinterlands, Solas will say "maybe we can help out all these people". He does care. You are absolutely no better then the Vivienne haters. You let your own personal bias color your views, and you still have the gal to act as if your opinion is more genuine.

[Boost32]

Oh, really? How come Solas ocasionally approves if you help out the refugees in the Hinterlands and in other places? If he didn't actually cared about fixing his mistake, shouldn't we expect him to stay neutral? When you first arrive at the village in the Hinterlands, Solas will say "maybe we can help out all these people". He does care. You are absolutely no better then the Vivienne haters. You let your own personal bias color your views, and you still have the gal to act as if your opinion is more genuine.

I could discuss Solas with you, but I'm not going off topic, if you want we can continue it feel free to send me a PM, and I don't hate Solas, he was a nice friend to my Inquisitor.
I never claimed to be better than anyone or my opinions is better than others, and of course my personal bias color my views, everyone do the same.

[Addai]

I fear her because she is a mage who can use her brains.
People like Fiona are idiots whom we know what we can expect from. She'll throw a fit, get people killed, throw electricity and we stick a sword through her. End of story.
Vivienne will get herself elected to Divine under everyone's noses. Scary sh*t.

No matter what the Inquisition does in DAI, Circles have changed significantly by the end of it all. So the rebellion (which was by no means started by mages only, still less by Fiona) is successful and certainly a prerequisite for Vivienne being accepted as Divine. I didn't agree with Anders' actions and didn't particularly like Fiona in Asunder, but in retrospect it's hard to argue they weren't correct about what it would take to bring down the Chantry and initiate widespread cultural change. Plus a tear in the Veil or two.

As for the furniture moving thing, I don't really get how it's supposed to challenge your authority. It's just petty and kind of dumb.

[Incantrix]

I think one of the most heated questions about DA characters is...

 

If you enjoy Morrigan, how can you hate Vivienne? They are very similar, it's just that one is pragmatic (Vivienne) and the other is chaotic (Morrigan). I mean, at least Vivienne makes sense of all her (unwanted) opinions other than things like, "let the circle die off because they're weak and I don't like them" O_O

 

I dunno, the whole thing just boggles my mind tbh. 

[Addai]

I think one of the most heated questions about DA characters is...
 
If you enjoy Morrigan, how can you hate Vivienne? They are very similar, it's just that one is pragmatic (Vivienne) and the other is chaotic (Morrigan). 
 
I dunno, the whole thing just boggles my mind tbh.

Morrigan has more humor and humanity to offset the constant, unerelenting bitchiness. Also it's easier for me to stomach a chaotic who's devoted to personal freedom and restoring lost magic, versus an (ew) Orlesian politician mostly devoted to her own ambition. I suspect it could also be that Morrigan was romanceable and therefore Gaider had to make her likeable to an extent. Her cut DR scene where the Warden is a female friend romancing Alistair is heartrending.

Result, Morrigan is my BFF. One of my favorite DA characters. Vivienne can take a flying leap off that balcony.

[Incantrix]

Morrigan has more humor and humanity to offset the constant, unerelenting bitchiness. Also it's easier for me to stomach a chaotic who's devoted to personal freedom and restoring lost magic, versus an (ew) Orlesian politician mostly devoted to her own ambition. I suspect it could also be that Morrigan was romanceable and therefore Gaider had to make her likeable to an extent. Her cut DR scene where the Warden is a female friend romancing Alistair is heartrending.

Result, Morrigan is my BFF. One of my favorite DA characters. Vivienne can take a flying leap off that balcony.

 

Except Morrigan is not only bitchy, but she's far more likely to destroy a village for power than say Vivienne. Morrigan only became "humorous" because of the way the banter was angled. I suppose it's about order vs chaos. I prefer Order and stability, therefore, I choose Vivienne's brand of bitchiness over Morrigan's brand. 

 

Morrigan is just to unhinged (and too damn greedy) for my tastes, and it DAI shows how unhinged she can be the moment she attacks the ancient elves and consequentially becomes a slave to the lady she's tried so hard to escape. It's almost poetic. 

[dragonflight288]

I may not like Vivienne, but I understand there's more to her than the parts I don't like. I simply hate people so into political games and improving their own station that they ignore other, important things. 

 

I know that Vivienne is many things. She is smart, committed, and everything she says has solid facts, or at least plenty of evidence to support whatever it is she is saying. 

 

Magic is dangerous. Even the most ardent mage-supporter acknowledges this. The timing of the vote to separate from the Chantry was indeed woeful, even though I'm sure most of the people who voted didn't actually think of that. Fiona was short-sighted in that regard. 

 

But Vivienne also overlooks plenty of things. One, you don't need a Circle to get a good education in magic, even if it's a tradition she isn't familiar with. Two, her understanding on the nature of the Fade and spirits is limited at best because she deliberately keeps herself out of any danger from demons that she now classifies all things in the Fade as something to be avoided, and after talking with Solas and dealing with the Avaar in Jaws of Hakkon, I have to say I now think that the Chantry, and Vivienne, is quite wrong in its approach to spirits and the Fade. A great deal of caution is needed, yes, but you can't dismiss everything as demonic because you don't understand it. Then your own will will affect the Fade and make it seem like what you believe is the reality, and thus you alter the nature of the spirits you deal with to become more harmful because that is what you believe they are.

 

Three, the type of people she likes to associate with are nobles, people of power and influence, and she looks down on anyone from a seemingly humble origin. She abhors blood magic but is completely unconcerned with bribery, blackmail, backroom-dealings or even if a servant here or there ends up in the way of the game and have to be dealt with. 

 

 

I think one of the most heated questions about DA characters is...

 

If you enjoy Morrigan, how can you hate Vivienne? They are very similar, it's just that one is pragmatic (Vivienne) and the other is chaotic (Morrigan). I mean, at least Vivienne makes sense of all her (unwanted) opinions other than things like, "let the circle die off because they're weak and I don't like them" O_O

 

I dunno, the whole thing just boggles my mind tbh. 

 

For me, it's not that I love Morrigan and hate Vivienne because of their attitudes If that's all it was, I would actually like Vivienne. It's Vivienne's social climbing, immersing herself in the Game, including every corrupting influence that goes along with it. Bribery, blackmail, assassination, secrets, utterly crushing those she sees as beneath her or her opponent as a way to advance herself, these are the things that make Vivienne stand out compared to Morrigan, who is more concerned with preserving that which was lost and couldn't care less about politics. 

 

Add in her sense of humor and sarcastic wit compared to Vivienne's just turning her nose up at everyone. One is funny although you recognize how rude it is and the other is just rude. 

 

I get Vivienne has her virtues, but her flaws get to me more, and it's really all about her politicking and being a social climber while looking down on everyone else that gets me riled up. 

 

I still use her in my party and I listen when she speaks because she is very smart and knows what she is talking about (except in areas she deliberately keeps herself ignorant on like the true nature of Fade Spirits) and I enjoy listening to her debate with Solas as they both make excellent points.

 

I would love a Morrigan vs Vivienne debate. I didn't get near as much party banter in the Arbor wilds between them as I hoped, and I left Solas behind for that exact reason. 

[Addai]

Except Morrigan is not only bitchy, but she's far more likely to destroy a village for power than say Vivienne. Morrigan only became "humorous" because of the way the banter was angled. I suppose it's about order vs chaos. I prefer Order and stability, therefore, I choose Vivienne's brand of bitchiness over Morrigan's brand. 
 
Morrigan is just to unhinged (and too damn greedy) for my tastes, and it DAI shows how unhinged she can be the moment she attacks the ancient elves and consequentially becomes a slave to the lady she's tried so hard to escape. It's almost poetic.

Both of them are out to get power in order to survive and accomplish their goals. Morrigan's goals are sympathetic to me, so I don't mind her means. She only attacks Abelas if the Inquisitor has already disregarded her advice and cut off any diplomatic solution to gaining the power of the Well. Even Solas agrees with her that you absolutely need the Well, however.

I'm not sure what you mean by banter being "angled." I found Vivienne amusing at first, especially her sparring with Solas and Cole, but after a while the constant acerbic disdain got very, very old. It's too one note with her. Morrigan + Alistair, + Zevran, + Sten, + Shale, + Loghain was a lot more colorful and varied. She had emotional range.

The Warden also has a greater range of responses with Morrigan than we get with Vivienne, which has already been pointed out extensively in this thread. Trying to make NPCs look good by turning the PC into an unresponsive dolt is not the best route.

[Creator Limbs]

Not exactly, in fact the thread title is a question addressing the readers' attitude toward her, so it does allow for Vivienne-affirmative statements too.

Thread title: "Any else not like Vivienne?"

The thread title is asking if anyone else doesn't like Vivienne. It's a call to arms for people that don't like Vivienne.

And "Vivienne affirmative" statements do not consists of asking someone why they don't like Vivienne, either.