40 réponses à ce sujet

[cap and gown]

So right now Morwen Shepard-Trevalyan is in the process of conquering Fort Adamant and everyone is telling her to "Hurry! Hurry!" Except what is Lady Trevalyan doing? She's looting, that's what. The game mechanics practically demand that I stop every few seconds and loot, yet the story wants me to "Hurry! Hurry!" Mass Effect does the same thing over and over and over again. "Hit the Keystone Shepard!" "Shut the eff up Grunt!" "What's taking so long Shepard? You getting old?"

 

Your story is being stepped all over by your game mechanics. The two should work in harmony, not at cross purposes.

 

For insTance, Shepard is supposed to feel a sense of defeat after Thessia. Yet it is impossible to feel that kind of defeat because the laughable nature of Kai Leng's plot armor. Perhaps a better way to bring level design and game mechanics into harmony here would have been to have a battle that the player must eventually lose through sheer numbers. Just keep throwing more and more enemies at the player (somewhat like the "fight for your life" segment of Arrival) until they are finally defeated. Then perhaps a sense of defeat could actually be generated through gameplay, and not just some heavy-handed writing.

 

More than any other game company BW should be sensitive to how story is impacted by game mechanics. Story is its focus, after all.

 

So, please: either ditch the looting system altogether (my preference) or ditch the "Tag the Keystone, Shepard!" dialogue. And be sensitive to other areas where game play and story work at cross purposes and try to harmonize them.

[Revan Reborn]

So right now Morwen Shepard-Trevalyan is in the process of conquering Fort Adamant and everyone is telling her to "Hurry! Hurry!" Except what is Lady Trevalyan doing? She's looting, that's what. The game mechanics practically demand that I stop every few seconds and loot, yet the story wants me to "Hurry! Hurry!" Mass Effect does the same thing over and over and over again. "Hit the Keystone Shepard!" "Shut the eff up Grunt!" "What's taking so long Shepard? You getting old?"

 

Your story is being stepped all over by your game mechanics. The two should work in harmony, not at cross purposes.

 

For insTance, Shepard is supposed to feel a sense of defeat after Thessia. Yet it is impossible to feel that kind of defeat because the laughable nature of Kai Leng's plot armor. Perhaps a better way to bring level design and game mechanics into harmony here would have been to have a battle that the player must eventually lose through sheer numbers. Just keep throwing more and more enemies at the player (somewhat like the "fight for your life" segment of Arrival) until they are finally defeated. Then perhaps a sense of defeat could actually be generated through gameplay, and not just some heavy-handed writing.

 

More than any other game company BW should be sensitive to how story is impacted by game mechanics. Story is its focus, after all.

 

So, please: either ditch the looting system altogether (my preference) or ditch the "Tag the Keystone, Shepard!" dialogue. And be sensitive to other areas where game play and story work at cross purposes and try to harmonize them.

I think to handle Kai Leng during Thessia, instead of having to slowly take down his shields and armor, he should have just overwhelmed Shepard eventually. All the cover in the temple should have been destructible and eventually Shepard would have ran out of places to hide. It's strange when in gameplay you are actually winning, yet then the cut scenes tells you the complete opposite.

 

Looting will never be removed, as this is an RPG. BioWare could potentially find a better way to handle loot during certain moments. As far as Grunt repeating himself over and over, I think that was more so to remind the player what they needed to do. Unless you are picking up medigel or thermal clips, there is nothing to explore during Grunts LM anyways.

[Vazgen]

Mass Effect was not very good of that sense of rush its missions required. You can travel around the galaxy for ages with Race Against Time active and Saren patiently waits for you. You can fly around the galaxy, probing planets or play arcade games while the galaxy is under a Reaper attack. The only mission that comes close is the Suicide Mission that makes your crew die if you take too long. 

That's why I'd like to see ME:Next storyline having no clear villain for about 60% of the game. More investigation, trying to discover who your real adversary is, not chasing them over the galaxy stopping to probe Uranus once in a while. It will tie in nicely with exploration focus, meaningful discoveries will encourage exploration and advance main plot.

I got that sense of defeat after my first Thessia playthrough. Leng killed me three times before I finally managed to drop his shields for the third time. After beating him with a pistol whip I no longer take him seriously though. 

I think the reason why many people don't perceive Kai Leng as a worthy adversary is not only his combat prowess and plot armor but his defenses. He has only health and shields - protection layers associated with Centurions and Marauders whom you should've killed a lot before Thessia. If he had armor and shields, he would've felt more "boss-like".

[cap and gown]

I think to handle Kai Leng during Thessia, instead of having to slowly take down his shields and armor, he should have just overwhelmed Shepard eventually. All the cover in the temple should have been destructible and eventually Shepard would have ran out of places to hide. It's strange when in gameplay you are actually winning, yet then the cut scenes tells you the complete opposite.

 

Looting will never be removed, as this is an RPG. BioWare could potentially find a better way to handle loot during certain moments. As far as Grunt repeating himself over and over, I think that was more so to remind the player what they needed to do. Unless you are picking up medigel or thermal clips, there is nothing to explore during Grunts LM anyways.

 

A good suggestion on having all your cover blown away so that you would end up exposed to the gun ship. Something, anything!, could have made the gameplay set the player in the mood for a feeling of defeat and not just the requirements of the plot.

 

As for Grunt's mission, I take it you haven't played it in quite a while? There are thousands of credits to be had, both on Krogan corpses and in two mini-game locked drops. The funnest of the drops is during the fight with Uvenk. In that case you have a drop on the opposite end of the arena from where you start and unless you get it before killing the last Krogan you won't get it at all. I find it fun and challenging to fight through Uvenk and his cronies to get to that 900 credit drop.

[Revan Reborn]

As for Grunt's mission, I take it you haven't played it in quite a while? There are thousands of credits to be had, both on Krogan corpses and in two mini-game locked drops. The funnest of the drops is during the fight with Uvenk. In that case you have a drop on the opposite end of the arena from where you start and unless you get it before killing the last Krogan you won't get it at all. I find it fun and challenging to fight through Uvenk and his cronies to get to that 900 credit drop.

I actually completed ME2 a few weeks ago. I opted to not mention the krogan corpses and locked boxes because a few thousand credits wasn't a lot and hardly would require you to wander around for more than a couple minutes. My point still remains that the area to collect these items was incredibly small, and I, myself, went around just to make sure I obtained everything before completing the loyalty mission. Again, I would have found Grunt's dialogue a bit more out of place if there were plenty of items to collect that were of high value and he was just hounding at you to continue the quest.

 

I think one thing that will help the next Mass Effect is BioWare is planning on cutting back on the use of cut scenes and making more events in-game instead. This will make it feel as if BioWare isn't trying to shove the plot down our throats and force certain outcomes to happen, as we will still have some control over what is happening.

[Lee T]

Looting will never be removed, as this is an RPG

I beg to differ. There are RPG models beside D&D most basic playstyle. There are plenty of RPGs where the world is rich enough and character customisation deep enough that you don't have to resort to loot to make it interesting.

Of course I'm mostly talking about Pen and Paper RPGs. I'm waiting for the day a brave develloper will be crazy enough to make a game based on ideas so advanced and radical we will have to go back to the 90's to find their equivalent in RPG books :-) .

As for Bioware while I hope they'll allways keep thinking about "new" game mechanics (rather than axing them) I also hope they'll look at their past story related mistakes and work on them. I'm not talking about the famous ending here, more about little things like taking Grunt with you in ME2 in Mordin's mission and having him not react at all to all these revelations. When companions do not react to stuff around them they should react to in uour mind, it does break immersion hard.

[Revan Reborn]

I beg to differ. There are RPG models beside D&D most basic playstyle. There are plenty of RPGs where the world is rich enough and character customisation deep enough that you don't have to resort to loot to make it interesting.

Of course I'm mostly talking about Pen and Paper RPGs. I'm waiting for the day a brave develloper will be crazy enough to make a game based on ideas so advanced and radical we will have to go back to the 90's to find their equivalent in RPG books :-) .

As for Bioware while I hope they'll allways keep thinking about "new" game mechanics (rather than axing them) I also hope they'll look at their past story related mistakes and work on them. I'm not talking about the famous ending here, more about little things like taking Grunt with you in ME2 in Mordin's mission and having him not react at all to all these revelations. When companions do not react to stuff around them they should react to in uour mind, it does break immersion hard.

What does having the capacity to loot items have to do with the world being rich and a deep character customization? I'm merely pointing out the fact that looting is one of the few staples that is still a standard for all RPGs and I do not see it going away. The idea of being rewarded for your effort and obtaining something tangible rather than just experience points floating over your head is very crucial in my opinion. This is partially what will separate an RPG from just being a shooter, or an action game, and many other genres.

 

Sadly I think the RPG genre is actually going the opposite direction. This is largely because tabletop RPGs and PC gaming was always seen as a hardcore niche for many years, especially with MMORPGs. We have gone away from the complex and intricate sandboxes of Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies in favor of casual and accessible theme parks such as World of Warcraft, Star Wars: The Old Republic, and Elder Scrolls Online. None of these new MMOs even have half the substance that their predecessors have.

 

RPGs, in general, are also following the footsteps of MMOs. My favorite video game franchise, The Elder Scrolls, has been streamlined significantly since Arena. We have lost abilities such as leveling acrobatics, athletics, etc., recall, levitation, climbing, ability to kill major characters, spell crafting, durability on gear, medium armor, separate pieces for gear (pauldrons), spears, throwing weapons, schools of magic simplified, the list goes on and on. Skyrim is an incredible game and my second favorite out of the franchise, but it just lacks the depth and complexity of Morrowind.

 

Reactivity is always an issue for RPGs. I still think one of the best examples of a game that really pulled off reactivity well was Fable. It was rather simplistic in its approach, but extremely successful in its execution. Sadly its successors never reached the high standards of the first game, but that's an example of a game that had great reactivity based on whether you were good and evil, how famous you were, what achievements you had claimed, etc.

[JeffZero]

I instantly thought of "hit the keystone, Shepard."

Well done.

[lastpawn]

A solid writeup and I absolutely agree. Well except for the "ditch the looting" thing. I like looting. I don't like "looting because looting" which is what we have in DA:I.

 

Very few games manage to bring together Plot and Gameplay in any sort of satisfactory way. The giants would be, off the top of my head, Zelda, Super Mario (no joke), and the Souls games, particularly Dark Souls 1.

[Lee T]

In some games, looting is the meat of the game, say Diablo or Borderlands. The core of RPG is the story and the ability for the player to interact with it, affect the outcome through his decisions and actions. Some world building use equipment as an important part of the story say cyberpunk (because of the tech), post apocalyptic (because it emphasise survival), or high fantasy (the quest for the next best magical item) but others do not, contemporary (how many times have you seen a cop loot gangsters to prepare for the boss fight in a copshow), low fantasy (how many swords can you carry for real) or other specialised universe (I don't see a samurai going through life selling the swords of his ennemies) even scifi (Mass Effect 2 was a big success while limiting loot to ammo collection).

Depending on the setting progressing in the story and developping the character's personnality and personnal abilities are rewards enough. Looting is way too often a way for developpers to save time and have you find weapon and monetary ressources that a well written story could give you through decisions and clever actions.

It does not define RPG and is not a core part of RPG, the story do.

[MrFob]

I instantly thought of "hit the keystone, Shepard."

Well done.

The main problem with these kinds of examples is that the NPCs repeat the same sentence (or 2-3 variations of it) over and over and over. When will game designers learn that this is exactly what takes me out of the game world and reminds me that it's just program running on my PC?
The solution is simple IMO. Just have him (and all other NPCs in all other games) say it once, then shut up and let me do my thing.
This is not a BioWare specific thing, it's a general mistake, you can find in almost every game. I don't care so much that the story demands me to rush, even if at the same time, I am supposed to explore the environment, just don't rub it in my face every 5 seconds.

EDIT: Something else, I was just thinking of, it would be interesting to subvert this issue in a mission or two. Say, you really are on a timer and there would be lot's of loot and stuff around but you also have to fight at the same time. What do you do? Do you try to loot while keeping the enemies at bay, do you try to finish the fight quickly and then loot as much as possible. You should not necessarily be able to get everything done so it's a player decision to choose their priorities. I think this could be interesting but obviously shouldn't be done too often.

[RoboticWater]

The main problem with these kinds of examples is that the NPCs repeat the same sentence (or 2-3 variations of it) over and over and over. When will game designers learn that this is exactly what takes me out of the game world and reminds me that it's just program running on my PC?
The solution is simple IMO. Just have him (and all other NPCs in all other games) say it once, then shut up and let me do my thing.
This is not a BioWare specific thing, it's a general mistake, you can find in almost every game. I don't care so much that the story demands me to rush, even if at the same time, I am supposed to explore the environment, just don't rub it in my face every 5 seconds.

EDIT: Something else, I was just thinking of, it would be interesting to subvert this issue in a mission or two. Say, you really are on a timer and there would be lot's of loot and stuff around but you also have to fight at the same time. What do you do? Do you try to loot while keeping the enemies at bay, do you try to finish the fight quickly and then loot as much as possible. You should not necessarily be able to get everything done so it's a player decision to choose their priorities. I think this could be interesting but obviously shouldn't be done too often.

I could be wrong, but the whole keystone problem smells of a game design quick fix. The devs probably had Grunt only say it once (or not at all) only to realize game testers didn't figure out that they needed to hit the keystone very quickly (if at all). The most optimal solution would've been to make the keystone more distinct (IIRC, it wasn't), but the devs might not have had enough time, so they just put the dialog on repeat and called it a day.

[MrFob]

I could be wrong, but the whole keystone problem smells of a game design quick fix. The devs probably had Grunt only say it once (or not at all) only to realize game testers didn't figure out that they needed to hit the keystone very quickly (if at all). The most optimal solution would've been to make the keystone more distinct (IIRC, it wasn't), but the devs might not have had enough time, so they just put the dialog on repeat and called it a day.

Once you have looted everything, the keystone is the only usable object in a very confined area with a layout that could not be any more simple if they tried and that has no other exit. If you can't figure that one out, you are basically too lazy to move your mouse.
Even in situations in other games, where it may be a tad more complicated to find where you are going, I still think having an NPC tell you where to do what every 0.3 seconds is just ridiculous. Why is it that games these days have to be designed to accommodate a hypothetical being that apparently actually doesn't want to figure anything out in a game but just get to the end as soon as possible and being nagged by NPCs while doing so?
Don't get me wrong, I am all for convenience functions, I am not one of the people who wants to go back to the 80s to have super hardcore game mechanics and no guidance. I just don't want that guidance to be yelled at me incessantly.

[Revan Reborn]

In some games, looting is the meat of the game, say Diablo or Borderlands. The core of RPG is the story and the ability for the player to interact with it, affect the outcome through his decisions and actions. Some world building use equipment as an important part of the story say cyberpunk (because of the tech), post apocalyptic (because it emphasise survival), or high fantasy (the quest for the next best magical item) but others do not, contemporary (how many times have you seen a cop loot gangsters to prepare for the boss fight in a copshow), low fantasy (how many swords can you carry for real) or other specialised universe (I don't see a samurai going through life selling the swords of his ennemies) even scifi (Mass Effect 2 was a big success while limiting loot to ammo collection).

Depending on the setting progressing in the story and developping the character's personnality and personnal abilities are rewards enough. Looting is way too often a way for developpers to save time and have you find weapon and monetary ressources that a well written story could give you through decisions and clever actions.

It does not define RPG and is not a core part of RPG, the story do.

Agree to disagree then. Story is not a pillar of all RPGs. It's a pillar of BioWare RPGs. Diablo is a dungeon crawler. Not an RPG. Borderlands is a cooperative shooter. Not an RPG. They have elements of an RPG with progression and skills, but are not actually RPGs.

 

Looting isn't just about picking up random crap from a mob. It's about a sense of achievement and accomplishment. Take The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind, for example. My favorite open world RPG of all time by far. Looting was a crucial element of the game, as it always has been in The Elder Scrolls, and even more so since you can loot almost everything off a corpse. Some of my best memories of achieving legendary weapons, armor, or clues to the next puzzle of the story came from looting. I can also use Star Wars Galaxies as a great example of an sandbox MMORPG that approached looting very well.

 

I don't know if you played Pre-CU SWG, but looting was a major element to how the player-driven economy worked. Especially if you became a Jedi, you had to fight your lightsaber color crystals, power crystals, and krayt dragon pearls. These were extremely rare and would decay overtime needing to be replaced. You have no idea how truly impactful it was when you found a rare crystal, or a holocron that would allow you to complete your Jedi Trials. I can even use Darkfall Online, that had full-loot PvP, and it was so powerful that you could kill an enemy player and steal all of their items from their tombstone.

 

Looting is a powerful tool in RPGs, especially if it's approached correctly. BioWare seems to have taken more of the FPS approach with there not being a lot of loot, but you can pick up attachments, armor, and weapons in the world on various missions (their version of looting). People love a sense of progression, as that's one of the main points to any RPG. Looting can truly help to improve that experience, or it can be a detriment if it is not done properly. There is certainly room for much improvement in NME, but I think looting will actually play a larger role.

 

The reason I say this is because of DAI and the overhaul of crafting in that game. Crafting and customization has always been almost non-existent in Mass Effect, and I believe the next title might change that, especially if it's more open world. Looting resources or items, like in DAI, would go a long way to improving progression as well as giving players that sense of achievement that is so important in any RPG.

[Lee T]

Agree to disagree then. Story is not a pillar of all RPGs. It's a pillar of BioWare RPGs. Diablo is a dungeon crawler. Not an RPG. Borderlands is a cooperative shooter. Not an RPG. They have elements of an RPG with progression and skills, but are not actually RPGs.

I'm not talking about Borderlands, Diablo etc. They are not RPG and I'm talking about RPGs. Not Bioware RPGs, RPGs in general including the source, pen & paper RPG. The video games industry is currently 20 years behind p&p RPGs, they really should take a moment to look back at their source material, a lot has been done since AD&D.

Looting isn't just about picking up random crap from a mob. It's about a sense of achievement and accomplishment. Take The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind, for example. My favorite open world RPG of all time by far. Looting was a crucial element of the game, as it always has been in The Elder Scrolls, and even more so since you can loot almost everything off a corpse. Some of my best memories of achieving legendary weapons, armor, or clues to the next puzzle of the story came from looting. I can also use Star Wars Galaxies as a great example of an sandbox MMORPG that approached looting very well.

Depending on it's setting equipement can be vital to a character or a fringe benefit. I tend to value self reliance more than items, probably because in P&P RPG keeping your equipment is not guaranteed.

I don't know if you played Pre-CU SWG, but looting was a major element to how the player-driven economy worked. Especially if you became a Jedi, you had to fight your lightsaber color crystals, power crystals, and krayt dragon pearls. These were extremely rare and would decay overtime needing to be replaced. You have no idea how truly impactful it was when you found a rare crystal, or a holocron that would allow you to complete your Jedi Trials. I can even use Darkfall Online, that had full-loot PvP, and it was so powerful that you could kill an enemy player and steal all of their items from their tombstone.

I have yet to see a MMORPG worhty of it's last three letters. To me they should be called MMOdiablo, so far they do not aim higher.

Looting is a powerful tool in RPGs, especially if it's approached correctly. BioWare seems to have taken more of the FPS approach with there not being a lot of loot, but you can pick up attachments, armor, and weapons in the world on various missions (their version of looting). People love a sense of progression, as that's one of the main points to any RPG. Looting can truly help to improve that experience, or it can be a detriment if it is not done properly. There is certainly room for much improvement in NME, but I think looting will actually play a larger role.

Sense of progression can just as well be achieved through story progression and clever character development tools. Most video games company focus on looting because it's a lot easier to implement. There's really nothing more to it.

The reason I say this is because of DAI and the overhaul of crafting in that game. Crafting and customization has always been almost non-existent in Mass Effect, and I believe the next title might change that, especially if it's more open world. Looting resources or items, like in DAI, would go a long way to improving progression as well as giving players that sense of achievement that is so important in any RPG.

If you hadn't read it yet you should google for "Where did my inventory go ?" By Christina Norman. A very interesting read about why, rather than improving the customisation system that was present in ME1, they choose to strip it away.

[ImaginaryMatter]

The main problem with these kinds of examples is that the NPCs repeat the same sentence (or 2-3 variations of it) over and over and over. When will game designers learn that this is exactly what takes me out of the game world and reminds me that it's just program running on my PC?
The solution is simple IMO. Just have him (and all other NPCs in all other games) say it once, then shut up and let me do my thing.
This is not a BioWare specific thing, it's a general mistake, you can find in almost every game. I don't care so much that the story demands me to rush, even if at the same time, I am supposed to explore the environment, just don't rub it in my face every 5 seconds.

EDIT: Something else, I was just thinking of, it would be interesting to subvert this issue in a mission or two. Say, you really are on a timer and there would be lot's of loot and stuff around but you also have to fight at the same time. What do you do? Do you try to loot while keeping the enemies at bay, do you try to finish the fight quickly and then loot as much as possible. You should not necessarily be able to get everything done so it's a player decision to choose their priorities. I think this could be interesting but obviously shouldn't be done too often.

 

I like it when games acknowledge your jackassery.

[Revan Reborn]

I'm not talking about Borderlands, Diablo etc. They are not RPG and I'm talking about RPGs. Not Bioware RPGs, RPGs in general including the source, pen & paper RPG. The video games industry is currently 20 years behind p&p RPGs, they really should take a moment to look back at their source material, a lot has been done since AD&D.

Depending on it's setting equipement can be vital to a character or a fringe benefit. I tend to value self reliance more than items, probably because in P&P RPG keeping your equipment is not guaranteed.

I have yet to see a MMORPG worhty of it's last three letters. To me they should be called MMOdiablo, so far they do not aim higher.

Sense of progression can just as well be achieved through story progression and clever character development tools. Most video games company focus on looting because it's a lot easier to implement. There's really nothing more to it.

If you hadn't read it yet you should google for "Where did my inventory go ?" By Christina Norman. A very interesting read about why, rather than improving the customisation system that was present in ME1, they choose to strip it away.

You brought them up. I assume it was for a reason. Video games can never truly emulate what you want. They have limitations, and that kind of experience would not appeal to the casual audience, of who most developers and publishers are after.

 

In many RPGs, your entire character's progression is based around gear. I've played very few where gear doesn't matter, and honestly the sense of achievement and worth in those games tends to be a lot less. There needs to be a sense of purpose in an RPG. If you aren't becoming better overtime, it's difficult to justify that you continue playing.

 

Then you have never played a sandbox MMORPG from ten years ago. Before WoW released in 2004, most MMOs were sandbox and had incredible depth. Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies are two notable ones. Everquest to a lesser extent and Dark Age of Camelot for its unconventional PvP. EVE and Darkfall Unchained are modern day examples of sandbox MMOs, but they are largely drowned out by the casual, pointless, money-grabs that WoW turned the industry into.

 

Not really. To a point, yes, but video games are about player interaction. Sure, I can receive a new shiny set of armor or a weapon during the story and BioWare can explain why I obtained it, but that will only have a limited impact. It's very different from Guild Wars 1, or Star Wars Galaxies, when I was the first to achieve a new armor set on the entire server. That wasn't from story, but through hard work and time. That's not to say this was all done through looting, but certainly killing a worthy boss or obtaining the proper resources to craft a rare piece of gear brings a large sense of achievement. I'd much rather earn something on my own merit rather than be given it in a pre-determined script. That's a broad assumption you are making there.

 

Is it by BioWare? If not, I have little interest in hearing third party opinions about why it was removed. I can guess a few reasons why BioWare did it. Too ambitious. Too tedious. They wanted to appeal to a larger and more casual audience. They wanted Mass Effect to be more of a shooter and less an RPG. They wanted players to focus on the action rather than being encumbered by picking up gear. BioWare had a lot less time to develop ME2 and ME3 than they did ME1. There could be a variety of reasons for its removal. I'm sure you'll likely argue because loot is bad in games.

[Vazgen]

Here it is: Link

Christina Norman was the lead gameplay designer for Mass Effect 2. She was also the lead gameplay designer for Mass Effect 3 but left during the development.

[Revan Reborn]

Here it is: Link

Christina Norman was the lead gameplay designer for Mass Effect 2. She was also the lead gameplay designer for Mass Effect 3 but left during the development.

All I got from this is BioWare used CoD/Halo/Battlefield/Gears as examples to make a shooter because they could not. I also saw that the inventory in ME1 was bad, which it was, but then the other reason is that companions are naked? That's obviously a joke and if not a terrible excuse to remove an inventory. This doesn't explain why the inventory was removed at all. People didn't want it gone in ME1. They wanted it fixed. Nobody asked for the game to be turned into a shooter on rails. Better shooting mechanics? Yes. No depth to the game whatsoever? Absolutely not.

[Vazgen]

I just posted the link for your convenience

Personally, I started to hate ME1 inventory system about halfway through the game. It was a little weird not to pick up things in ME2 but for me it was much better than spending half an hour selling or converting useless items to omni-gel. I was actually glad that it was gone in the end. ME3 was something of a compromise but more geared towards the shooter gameplay. I think ME:Next will have something similar but more focused on looting aspect.

[Revan Reborn]

I just posted the link for your convenience

Personally, I started to hate ME1 inventory system about halfway through the game. It was a little weird not to pick up things in ME2 but for me it was much better than spending half an hour selling or converting useless items to omni-gel. I was actually glad that it was gone in the end. ME3 was something of a compromise but more geared towards the shooter gameplay. I think ME:Next will have something similar but more focused on looting aspect.

I agree the inventory system was far from perfect. There was too much "junk," as the lead gameplay designer suggested. However, absolute removal instead of streamlining and refining the system? I find that to be rather extreme. I think ME2/3 lacked depth compared to ME1, even if the sequels are much more fun and engaging. I think what BioWare should strive to do is achieve what they wanted to originally with ME1.

 

The game was obviously too ambitious for its time. This was when BioWare was still independent (although they merged with Pandemic to have the funding to support ME). The team was also much smaller as it was essentially the KotOR team building a new franchise and trying to create an entire new experience. BioWare has more or less gotten the shooter mechanics down with ME2/3, since that's really all they improved in Mass Effect largely.

 

With the return of the Mako and focus on exploration, perhaps we can see a return to an inventory and other older systems that actually did make Mass Effect stand out, but weren't implemented well. BioWare Montreal is new blood and a new direction, so it will be interesting what they innovate compared to what Edmonton achieved.

[DanishGambit]

I fought Kai Lang using a vanguard without taking cover so it's possible. He even has different dialogue when you melee him and stay close. If you take cover while he's running around he just starts calling you old. But games can't really cover everything. For example when chasing Dr. Eva with a soldier you can use adrenaline rush to run past her.

 

Anyway I think looting was more natural in ME1 because you did it on planets in which the main goals were exploration and investigation. You were looking for Saren as well as doing missions for the alliance. In ME3 you always had one goal and it needed to be done urgently so taking the time to loot didn't seem natural at all. The most evident part in ME3 is the N7 mission where you have to rescue colonists. Instead of rushing to the kodiak I ended up running around the level to get all the loot while the survivors were just sitting around scared.

 

In the twitch stream Bioware did on N7 day they talked a lot about exploration so they're probably thinking about these things.

[Lee T]

You brought them up. I assume it was for a reason. Video games can never truly emulate what you want. They have limitations, and that kind of experience would not appeal to the casual audience, of who most developers and publishers are after.

I brought them up as exemples of games based around looting. Not as RPGs which they are clearly not.

In many RPGs, your entire character's progression is based around gear. I've played very few where gear doesn't matter, and honestly the sense of achievement and worth in those games tends to be a lot less. There needs to be a sense of purpose in an RPG. If you aren't becoming better overtime, it's difficult to justify that you continue playing.

I do not deny the existence of games based around looting. It is the easiest way to show progression. It's harder to give a good enough attributes and skill progression or a satisfying story.
 

Then you have never played a sandbox MMORPG from ten years ago. Before WoW released in 2004, most MMOs were sandbox and had incredible depth. Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies are two notable ones. Everquest to a lesser extent and Dark Age of Camelot for its unconventional PvP. EVE and Darkfall Unchained are modern day examples of sandbox MMOs, but they are largely drowned out by the casual, pointless, money-grabs that WoW turned the industry into.

Nope, I don't care for MMO. They are way too far from a real RPG experience for me. When I heard the next KOTOR was going to be a MMO I lost all interest in the project.
 

Not really. To a point, yes, but video games are about player interaction. Sure, I can receive a new shiny set of armor or a weapon during the story and BioWare can explain why I obtained it, but that will only have a limited impact. It's very different from Guild Wars 1, or Star Wars Galaxies, when I was the first to achieve a new armor set on the entire server. That wasn't from story, but through hard work and time. That's not to say this was all done through looting, but certainly killing a worthy boss or obtaining the proper resources to craft a rare piece of gear brings a large sense of achievement. I'd much rather earn something on my own merit rather than be given it in a pre-determined script. That's a broad assumption you are making there.

I would differentiate crafting from looting. Two reasons, first it does, require more involvement from the player, second a good crafting system do require more attention from the designer. A well designed crafting system is something I do respect way more than a well designed looting system.
 

Is it by BioWare? If not, I have little interest in hearing third party opinions about why it was removed. I can guess a few reasons why BioWare did it. Too ambitious. Too tedious. They wanted to appeal to a larger and more casual audience. They wanted Mass Effect to be more of a shooter and less an RPG. They wanted players to focus on the action rather than being encumbered by picking up gear. BioWare had a lot less time to develop ME2 and ME3 than they did ME1. There could be a variety of reasons for its removal.

It is from Bioware and it does show how the bad reception of their atrocious UI was felt as a rejection of the very concept of inventory.

To me they confused end and means. The use of guns or swords should always be a mean not an end. During the rise of the FPS genre I did dream of adventures and story told through this very involving new style (System Shock 2 would be a good example at the time). Unfortunately most developers got bogged down in the shooting mechanic and the gaming aspect and forgot about the power first person view can give to a well told story or a well built universe.

There was absolutely no reason why good shooting mechanics couldn't be a part of a well done RPG.

The sad part is by blaming the inventory mechanic itself they did not examine the faults in their UI and they are to this day still making generally poor UI and poor mini games (mining in ME3) and gaming mechanics (pinging in DAI).

I'm sure you'll likely argue because loot is bad in games.

I never said "looting is bad". I find it less involving that character progression and story progression but I do not deny the appeal of finding a rare item.

[ZipZap2000]

I always hated being rushed.

 

Cassandra: We need move quickl...

 

Squizzy: Do you want the damn potions or not!

[Oni Changas]

So right now Morwen Shepard-Trevalyan is in the process of conquering Fort Adamant and everyone is telling her to "Hurry! Hurry!" Except what is Lady Trevalyan doing? She's looting, that's what. The game mechanics practically demand that I stop every few seconds and loot, yet the story wants me to "Hurry! Hurry!" Mass Effect does the same thing over and over and over again. "Hit the Keystone Shepard!" "Shut the eff up Grunt!" "What's taking so long Shepard? You getting old?"

 

Your story is being stepped all over by your game mechanics. The two should work in harmony, not at cross purposes.

 

For insTance, Shepard is supposed to feel a sense of defeat after Thessia. Yet it is impossible to feel that kind of defeat because the laughable nature of Kai Leng's plot armor. Perhaps a better way to bring level design and game mechanics into harmony here would have been to have a battle that the player must eventually lose through sheer numbers. Just keep throwing more and more enemies at the player (somewhat like the "fight for your life" segment of Arrival) until they are finally defeated. Then perhaps a sense of defeat could actually be generated through gameplay, and not just some heavy-handed writing.

 

More than any other game company BW should be sensitive to how story is impacted by game mechanics. Story is its focus, after all.

 

So, please: either ditch the looting system altogether (my preference) or ditch the "Tag the Keystone, Shepard!" dialogue. And be sensitive to other areas where game play and story work at cross purposes and try to harmonize them.

Vegeta: The ****s a Fort Adamant?