40 réponses à ce sujet

[SNascimento]

That's true for pretty much every single game ever made.

[SNascimento]

Sense of progression can just as well be achieved through story progression and clever character development tools. Most video games company focus on looting because it's a lot easier to implement. There's really nothing more to it.

If you hadn't read it yet you should google for "Where did my inventory go ?" By Christina Norman. A very interesting read about why, rather than improving the customisation system that was present in ME1, they choose to strip it away.

Wow Lee T sir, I really like you.

On a side note, Christina Norman is second only to Casey Hudson as creators of the glory of Mass Effect. I miss her. 

[Revan Reborn]

I brought them up as exemples of games based around looting. Not as RPGs which they are clearly not.


I do not deny the existence of games based around looting. It is the easiest way to show progression. It's harder to give a good enough attributes and skill progression or a satisfying story.
 

Nope, I don't care for MMO. They are way too far from a real RPG experience for me. When I heard the next KOTOR was going to be a MMO I lost all interest in the project.
 

I would differentiate crafting from looting. Two reasons, first it does, require more involvement from the player, second a good crafting system do require more attention from the designer. A well designed crafting system is something I do respect way more than a well designed looting system.
 

It is from Bioware and it does show how the bad reception of their atrocious UI was felt as a rejection of the very concept of inventory.

To me they confused end and means. The use of guns or swords should always be a mean not an end. During the rise of the FPS genre I did dream of adventures and story told through this very involving new style (System Shock 2 would be a good example at the time). Unfortunately most developers got bogged down in the shooting mechanic and the gaming aspect and forgot about the power first person view can give to a well told story or a well built universe.

There was absolutely no reason why good shooting mechanics couldn't be a part of a well done RPG.

The sad part is by blaming the inventory mechanic itself they did not examine the faults in their UI and they are to this day still making generally poor UI and poor mini games (mining in ME3) and gaming mechanics (pinging in DAI).


I never said "looting is bad". I find it less involving that character progression and story progression but I do not deny the appeal of finding a rare item.

Modern MMOs are far from a real RPG experience. Sandbox MMOs ten years ago like Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies, and EVE are much truer to real RPGs than most games. Sadly sandbox games are a dying breed thanks to WoW.

 

Crafting and looting generally go hand in hand. You have to obtain the resources first before you can actually make something. A lot of time the more rare resources will come from bosses or rare spawns of NPCs. To separate the two doesn't make any sense as they both would inevitably suffer.

 

I looked at the slide show. The lead gameplay designer's rationale was "ME1 inventory cluttered with too much junk" and "people strip their companions naked if there is an inventory system." Hardly a practical or legitimate reason for removing the system entirely. A better idea would have been to streamline the inventory system just like they did with the shooter mechanics. I really believe the main reason they took out the inventory was time constraints and the fact they were trying to make a gameplay experience comparable to AAA shooters at the time. I think an inventory system is likely to come back with the next Mass Effect.

 

There is a good reason. BioWare didn't know how to make a shooter and when they figured it out they stripped most of the RPG away. They went from one extreme to the other. Hopefully NME will be a culmination of both systems for a much better experience. The problem is the UI is always made for consoles and thus leads to a lackluster experience. That mini-game was thanks to the lead gameplay designer in that slide show you kept referencing. At least it was better in ME3. It was horrendous in ME2 and almost killed the game for me, more so than the bad inventory ever did.

 

I really think for the sake of the franchise that the inventory needs to come back, along with the Mako and exploration. It will bring so much more depth and opportunities to the game rather than the linear shooter-on-rails we had received with the sequels. They were good games for what they were built for, but didn't offer much in the way of anything besides the story. Hopefully NME can rectify that mistake.

[StarcloudSWG]

Looting in Mass Effect doesn't make sense.

 

It's set in a modern era where things can be bought for money and sold for money. And your character is on salary and gets mission bonuses.

Also, the ship has a machine shop and mini-factory where things can be MADE for you.

 

WHY would you have to rely on loot for ANYTHING? So without loot, WHY would you need an inventory system?

 

The answer is, you don't. Which is the biggest reason that loot and inventory went away with Mass Effect 2 and 3. Loot DOES NOT make sense when you have assembly lines.

[StealthGamer92]

Looting in Mass Effect doesn't make sense.

 

It's set in a modern era where things can be bought for money and sold for money. And your character is on salary and gets mission bonuses.

Also, the ship has a machine shop and mini-factory where things can be MADE for you.

 

WHY would you have to rely on loot for ANYTHING? So without loot, WHY would you need an inventory system?

 

The answer is, you don't. Which is the biggest reason that loot and inventory went away with Mass Effect 2 and 3. Loot DOES NOT make sense when you have assembly lines.

It does not have to make sense 100% of the time. It is a game not real life. It should be first fun/entertaining and second real. Both are immportant. The ME3 way is too real and thus lost it's fun.

[Vazgen]

It does not have to make sense 100% of the time. It is a game not real life. It should be first fun/entertaining and second real. Both are immportant. The ME3 way is too real and thus lost it's fun.

Disagree with the "fun" part. ME3 is much more fun to play than ME1 for me. Gameplay-wise it's the best of the series IMO

[Lee T]

WHY would you have to rely on loot for ANYTHING? So without loot, WHY would you need an inventory system?
 
The answer is, you don't. Which is the biggest reason that loot and inventory went away with Mass Effect 2 and 3. Loot DOES NOT make sense when you have assembly lines.

Looting and inventory are two different things.

Looting is not a staple of modern to sci-fi settings, I'll agree on that. However that could be said about medieval stories as well' I don't remember Aragorn & co picking up orc gear to sale for healing potions at the next village.

However the reason why there's no inventory in ME2 and ME3 is because :

There is nothing but weapons to carry. No gadget and gizmos, you don't really pick up new weapons since they magically appear in every weapon locker you find. There's no need to choose if something is worth picking, it's automatic.

You don't have a choice of weapons, you have to carry one of each type, you can't choose not to take an assault rifle to take two different shotguns.

Medigel is a fixed capacity. You can't sacrifice weapon storage to carry more medical supplies.

Looting is a reward system and a part of the money structure of the game. Inventory is about choice, balancing what you need and what you can carry.

The funny thing is that a game like Battlefield 4 has a more indepth inventory system and gear options than any ME game yet. Which proves Christina Norman's point, they didn't know about FPS enough to know that FPS guys can handle an inventory.

[StealthGamer92]

Disagree with the "fun" part. ME3 is much more fun to play than ME1 for me. Gameplay-wise it's the best of the series IMO

The gameplay was fun. Getting everything given to me, as I have said many times before, wasn't.

[Revan Reborn]

Looting and inventory are two different things.

Looting is not a staple of modern to sci-fi settings, I'll agree on that. However that could be said about medieval stories as well' I don't remember Aragorn & co picking up orc gear to sale for healing potions at the next village.

However the reason why there's no inventory in ME2 and ME3 is because :

There is nothing but weapons to carry. No gadget and gizmos, you don't really pick up new weapons since they magically appear in every weapon locker you find. There's no need to choose if something is worth picking, it's automatic.

You don't have a choice of weapons, you have to carry one of each type, you can't choose not to take an assault rifle to take two different shotguns.

Medigel is a fixed capacity. You can't sacrifice weapon storage to carry more medical supplies.

Looting is a reward system and a part of the money structure of the game. Inventory is about choice, balancing what you need and what you can carry.

The funny thing is that a game like Battlefield 4 has a more indepth inventory system and gear options than any ME game yet. Which proves Christina Norman's point, they didn't know about FPS enough to know that FPS guys can handle an inventory.

What? Have you experienced any modern-to-sci fi settings? Assassin's Creed? Watch_Dogs? Crysis? Dead Space? Deus Ex? Fallout? Bioshock? Borderlands? I could go on and on. I'd recommend reading the Lord of the Rings books. You'd be surprised by the amount of detail JRR Tolkien goes into the world and how little of it is focused around just battles and conflict.

 

The only reason an inventory system was removed is purely because BioWare didn't know how to make it work in a Mass Effect game. It was too complex and they preferred to outright remove it rather than trying to streamline it in a way that would be beneficial to the game design. ME2 and ME3 are merely failures on BioWare's understanding of how shooters function.

[Dubozz]

Story is at war with itself.

[Lee T]

What?

I'm guessing we mostly agree but keep missing each other frame of reference. Since we're just generating white noise and our discussion has been off topic almost from the start (my fault I'm afraid) I'm switching this to PM if you don't mind.

[ImaginaryMatter]

It does not have to make sense 100% of the time. It is a game not real life. It should be first fun/entertaining and second real. Both are immportant. The ME3 way is too real and thus lost it's fun.

 

As games improve visually and become more photo-realistic mechanics will also have to become more realistic as well to avoid uncanny like valley symptoms when playing them -- the more fidelity a game has visually, the more our brains expect everything else to hold up. A few sprites walking around in another wise desolate town in a 16 bit game looks normal but translate the same situation to a game with higher graphics and it starts to look off. Another example is Skyrim.

 

I think they have to be balanced enough or else it breaks suspension when playing a game.

[StealthGamer92]

 

As games improve visually and become more photo-realistic mechanics will also have to become more realistic as well to avoid uncanny like valley symptoms when playing them -- the more fidelity a game has visually, the more our brains expect everything else to hold up. A few sprites walking around in another wise desolate town in a 16 bit game looks normal but translate the same situation to a game with higher graphics and it starts to look off. Another example is Skyrim.

 

I think they have to be balanced enough or else it breaks suspension when playing a game.

 

I still own and play my original Xbox games like Halo 1&2 and both Mech Assault games and thier unrealisticness does not bother me. The graphis issue is something I have never had. It can look real without playing/feeling real for me. I want fun not realistic no matter how real the graphics look.

[FirstBlood XL]

Please god, no.... I enjoyed the simplicity of ME 2-3's inventory system. I'm so tired of looting, crafting, and inventory management in EVERY FREAKING GAME. It's in everything now... Grinding upon grinding... And not the fun kind.

Do I keep the pistol with 98 damage but 10 extra poison dmg... Or the normal pistol with 110dmg?? Oh no, I'm out of inventory spots again, I guess I have to stop what I'm doing and fast travel to a merchant to sell my useless loot. But first I'll have to make sure none of it upgrades my party's current gear. That'll only take 30 mins or so.

Give me a break... Keep the inventory simple, make the story complex.

[cap and gown]

The idea that ME3 does not have an inventory system is silly. Just because the inventory is not in your menu does not mean there is no inventory. There is and you can access it at any workbench, at the start of a mission, or when you pick up a new weapon. Depending on how many DLC you own, you have a fair to large amount of weapons to choose from, and a fair to large number of mods to put on those weapons. Apparently, though, unless there is a menu item listed with the word "inventory" a game does not have an inventory system. Yet the ME3 inventory system was clean, efficient, yet still gave you everything you would want out of an inventory system: a way to choose among different weapons and mods.

 

The armor inventory system was a tad bit different because the game only gave you two armor lockers on the Normandy, one on Omega, and one in the Citadel apartment. But you had 5 different slots to mod your armor with many different capabilities such as more weapon damage, more power damage, faster cool downs, more shields, etc.

 

Yet somehow because it wasn't listed in the main menu under "inventory" ME3 is considered to not have an inventory system. Yeesh.

[Lee T]

Inventory is about choice. Can you choose to forgo the use of shotguns to carry two different type of handguns instead, or carry more medigel before a tough mission ? ME3 does offer customisation, but it's actual in mission inventory is similar to every shooter since Doom, not much to brag about for a RPG.