176 réponses à ce sujet

[Former_Fiend]

Actually the Elves have out done Flemeth in the immortality department. Zathrian lived for centuries without once having to possess a new body. My Elfquisitor was a Mage and was the Keeper's first. And her being bound to Flemeth does nothing to inspire the hope that it would be shared. Flemeth never shared herself. The Elfquisitor at least has that desire.

 

Zathrian's methods being superior to Flemeth's is debatable. Zathrian may not need to possess new bodies, but never the less, his longevity comes at a significant price; Witherfang. He also doesn't apparently have any back up methods to save him in the event he's done in by violent methods, where as Flemeth does.

 

So I take it back; Zathrian's methods being superior to Flemeth's isn't a debatable point, at all. His methods are simply inferior.

[King Dragonlord]

Zathrian's methods being superior to Flemeth's is debatable. Zathrian may not need to possess new bodies, but never the less, his longevity comes at a significant price; Witherfang. He also doesn't apparently have any back up methods to save him in the event he's done in by violent methods, where as Flemeth does.

 

So I take it back; Zathrian's methods being superior to Flemeth's isn't a debatable point, at all. His methods are simply inferior.

 

And Flemeth is not saddled with a curse? She keeps aging, she has to prime new bodies to possess or she'll eventually be trapped helpless in a body that ages but never dies. And Witherfang turns out be to a decent compassionate creature inspite of her origins. 

[Bann Duncan]

"I thought I knew what Flemeth planned. I thought what she craved was immortality. And yet I was wrong. So very wrong. She is no blood mage, no abomination... She is not even truly human. The ritual was but a means to an end, a herald for what is to come."

 

They have been planning this for a long, long time.

 

Spoiler

Do you really think someone who was raised by an elven goddess would not have special knowledge, even if she didn't know what her mother was at the time? Canonically it's hard to argue that Morrigan isn't one of the most powerful and knowledgeable witches in Thedas.

[Former_Fiend]

And Flemeth is not saddled with a curse? She keeps aging, she has to prime new bodies to possess or she'll eventually be trapped helpless in a body that ages but never dies. And Witherfang turns out be to a decent compassionate creature inspite of her origins. 

 

I didn't say Flemeth's methods were without flaws, I just consider those flaws less glaring than a plague of werewolves.

 

And the Lady of the Forest was a compassionate creature. Witherfang was a vicious beast. The duality of nature, expressed in two halves of the same being, who both absolutely hate Zathrian.

[Dean_the_Young]

The explanation didn't make me any happier. Suddenly she's Mythal. How much you wanna bet Bioware had no idea that was going to be the case when they first created her. 

 

Are you offering to let me take your money? Because I'd happily take your money.

 

Unlike the ME trilogy, in which the devs have confessed that the nature and objective of the Reapers and the underlying lore was made up as it went along, the DA team has a pretty well documented reference to deep lore and pre-existing worldbuilding on things that include the nature of the Fade and magic, the pre-history of Thedas, and the the truth of the Gods. We don't know them, but the Devs have more than once referred to the fact that these things exist in their internal wiki and deep lore.

 

The nature of Flemeth and what she is has always been a a deliberate mystery since the start. We knew she wasn't a mere mortal, that she had access to magics unlike any other, that she and Morrigan had deep knowledge of the Old God rituals and more. DAO heavily hinted that her nature was unique, and DA2 was explicit about it: multiple companions (especially Fenris) explicitly identified her nature as unique and unknown, denying the possibility of even an abomination.

 

While plot lines have been maleable in the DA creation process, dropping this idea or incorporating that subplot here, the underlying lore has been pretty stable and not subject to change. The main 'retcons' primarily have surrounded Alistair, to be honest: the gameplay/lore segregation about the necessity of lyrium, and the chronology for him being Fiona's child, both of these apparently being oversights in the implementation. While the DA team has kept us on our toes and adapting to revelations, it's generally been in the form of introducing new facts to what was vague, not changing pre-signaled positions on the nature of various things and the lore.

 

Flemeth, legendary witch of the wilds, a seemingly timeless crone with unique knowledge and magics that defy reasonable explanation, being a host for the spirit of a long-missing elven goddess? Yes, I can believe that.

[gothicshark]

The explanation didn't make me any happier. Suddenly she's Mythal. How much you wanna bet Bioware had no idea that was going to be the case when they first created her.

Actually they dropped a lot of hints in DA:O that Flemeth was a god of someones pantheon, and there was a lot of clues from Morrigan. That Flemeth was concerned with the Dalish.

[Bann Duncan]

Actually they dropped a lot of hints in DA:O that Flemeth was a god of someones pantheon, and there was a lot of clues from Morrigan. That Flemeth was concerned with the Dalish.

 

And in DA2 we see that she is in and of herself a figure of Dalish legend, Asha'bellanar, who Merrill is awed (in both senses) by, dropping to bow. 

[Addai]

The explanation didn't make me any happier. Suddenly she's Mythal. How much you wanna bet Bioware had no idea that was going to be the case when they first created her.

I'll take that bet. We see a connection between the Dalish and Flemeth in A Stolen Throne. David Gaider tweeted "I've been sitting on this stuff for YEARS." He didn't specify, but he was talking about fans reaching a certain point in the game that was a big reveal.

Why so cynical?

[Bann Duncan]

I thought about making a thread about this, but basically, I think Morrigan is the single most important human being in the Dragon Age Universe. She's intimately connected to the most powerful beings we've encountered: Old Gods and the Elven Gods. But she's still human. I think she's going to be a catalyst for the DA universe for years to come.

 

Unfortunately a lot of people don't seem to understand gameplay/story segregation and just cut in with stupid comments about how Wynne could do everything Morrigan could and things like that.

 

There's a weird reluctance to acknowledge her importance, as people do with Liara (who is the most important character in the series, after Shepard)– romance has nothing to do with it in either case.

[Zu Long]

Personally, my Elfquisitor had it when he got told by the Sentinel that he wasn't good enough to be a real elf. He let Morrigan drink, and oh man, that scene with Flemeth was amazing as a result. It was kind of harsh in some ways, but some people really NEED a moment their hubris kicks them in the teeth. Morrigan was one of them, but her reactions in that scene really redeemed her for me. And it seemed like Flemeth agreed.

[LobselVith8]

The explanation didn't make me any happier. Suddenly she's Mythal. How much you wanna bet Bioware had no idea that was going to be the case when they first created her. 

 

Perhaps. I can understand the cynical perspective given what happened to the non-human royal boons being handwaved and other rectons, but look at what an elven Inquisitor can accomplish: becoming a hero to the Andrastian faithful, changing some people's views on elves (and the Dalish in particular), potentially helping Clan Lavellan become heroes and a leader of Wycome, possibly helping the Orlesian elves by supporting Briala gain leadership of Orlais, having power and influence across nations, gaining an Eluvian...

 

...sure, Morrigan has an fascination with the well of sorrows, but considering her interest in preserving magic and knowledge like this, it shouldn't be a surprise. While Morrigan likely has another agenda than your elven Inquisitor, it's not like her intent is malicious. It's not as though you have to acquiesce to Morrigan's wishes, either. Your elven Inquisitor can drink from the well because it's part of your heritage, and because you think you'll be able to benefit the Elvhen.

[Ascendra]

Unfortunately a lot of people don't seem to understand gameplay/story segregation and just cut in with stupid comments about how Wynne could do everything Morrigan could and things like that.

There's a weird reluctance to acknowledge her importance, as people do with Liara (who is the most important character in the series, after Shepard)– romance has nothing to do with it in either case.

Except Morrigan is more likable than Liara and has a history that flows naturally into making her become what we see in Inquisition - like being raised by Flemeth, having unique knowledge, preserving the old magic, having OGB etc. Liara kind gets thrown into Shadow Broker business completely out of the blue. Morrigan is consistent as a character while Liara is not. If anyone would have been more perfect for Shadow Broker would be Miranda - she has the guts, the smarts and necessary coldness. But unfortunately she was written off to a minor NPC in the end.

I dont mind Morrigan being important and "stealing" our glory as OP seems to think. And being what she is and devoting her whole life to studying old magic she probably knows more about it than the Inquisitor ever will.

[Bann Duncan]

Except Morrigan is more likable than Liara and has a history that flows naturally into making her become what we see in Inquisition - like being raised by Flemeth, having unique knowledge, preserving the old magic, having OGB etc. Liara kind gets thrown into Shadow Broker business completely out of the blue. Morrigan is consistent as a character while Liara is not. If anyone would have been more perfect for Shadow Broker would be Miranda - she has the guts, the smarts and necessary coldness. But unfortunately she was written off to a minor NPC in the end.

I dont mind Morrigan being important and "stealing" our glory as OP seems to think. And being what she is and devoting her whole life to studying old magic she probably knows more about it than the Inquisitor ever will.

 

Jealous Alistair fangirls in 3... 2... 

[Ascendra]

Jealous Alistair fangirls in 3... 2...

Quick! Take cover!

Honestly i dont understand how people can hate her. She is smart, sexy, snarky, practical, she becomes your best friend if you let her and she saves your life. And its good that she is smarter and more powerful than our already overpowered Inquisitor.

[Bann Duncan]

Quick! Take cover!

Honestly i dont understand how people can hate her. She is smart, sexy, snarky, practical, she becomes your best friend if you let her and she saves your life. And its good that she is smarter and more powerful than our already overpowered Inquisitor.

 

People often cite the stupidest things to hate her, too. I remember on BSN someone was saying she's a liar for mentioning poisons because 'Poison-Making' was not in her stats. Right... the Witch of the Wilds doesn't know anything about poison.

[Ascendra]

People often cite the stupidest things to hate her, too. I remember on BSN someone was saying she's a liar for mentioning poisons because 'Poison-Making' was not in her stats. Right... the Witch of the Wilds doesn't know anything about poison.

 

Thats... rather silly.

 

What i don't understand is players having problems with NPCs being more powerful/prettier/smarter/knowledgeable/epic than our already overpowered protagonists. Inquisitor beats Warden in Mary Sueness (at least the Warden is on borrowed time due to taint) and can even rival Shepard in terms of epicness, being the Divine figure and all. So why can't Morrigan trump the Inquisitor in some things? After all she was studying the old magic all her life, and Dalish are largely mistaken on their own history as DA:I shows. Besides its good to have strong allies, they can cover your backside if things get rough.

[ReelRipper]

I have no issue when NPCs are stronger or knowledgeable than our character when it makes since. Morrigan knowing more about magic both new and ancient made is such an example considering how serious she is about it and who taught her most of what she knows. Hell some of my companions are better suited to handle certain fields than my Inquisitor which works for my role play and why I look to certain folks for guidance its awesome really.

Yes my sarcastic flirtatious rogue is more qualified to handle something as ancient as what is in the Well of Sorrows than the Witch of the Wilds just because he is the PC Dalish or not.

.

[King Dragonlord]

Except Morrigan is more likable than Liara and has a history that flows naturally into making her become what we see in Inquisition - like being raised by Flemeth, having unique knowledge, preserving the old magic, having OGB etc. Liara kind gets thrown into Shadow Broker business completely out of the blue. Morrigan is consistent as a character while Liara is not. If anyone would have been more perfect for Shadow Broker would be Miranda - she has the guts, the smarts and necessary coldness. But unfortunately she was written off to a minor NPC in the end.

I dont mind Morrigan being important and "stealing" our glory as OP seems to think. And being what she is and devoting her whole life to studying old magic she probably knows more about it than the Inquisitor ever will.

 

<sigh> Its not at all about stealing glory. Did you even read this thread? You never saw me in here complaining about the other stuff she knows how to do. 

 

She's mean, petty and cruel and can hardly ever be arsed to care about anybody. She shares only what it serves her purposes to share, even in this game. MY point is that you don't trust someone like that with the legacy of the elven people. I'd say the needs of an entire race do outweigh the obsessions of a single person. 

 

Lets say we had a power source in real life and a physicist said he could get the most power out of it but that he would use all that power on a particle accelerator for his own studies (that he tends not to publish) whereas an electrician said she could only get a tenth as much power but that she would use it for an electrical grid to provide lighting for a third world community. Which is better?

[gothicshark]

<sigh> Its not at all about stealing glory. Did you even read this thread? You never saw me in here complaining about the other stuff she knows how to do. 
 
She's mean, petty and cruel and can hardly ever be arsed to care about anybody. She shares only what it serves her purposes to share, even in this game. MY point is that you don't trust someone like that with the legacy of the elven people. I'd say the needs of an entire race do outweigh the obsessions of a single person. 
 
Lets say we had a power source in real life and a physicist said he could get the most power out of it but that he would use all that power on a particle accelerator for his own studies (that he tends not to publish) whereas an electrician said she could only get a tenth as much power but that she would use it for an electrical grid to provide lighting for a third world community. Which is better?

Bad analogy.

Spoiler

It's more like, what if someones mother built a storage device and hid it away from the world. The several thousands of years later the daughter and a stranger show up wondering who is more qualified to own it.


Because in the end, the well belongs to Morrigan's Mother, not the Elves, and your Inquisitor was descended from the slaves of the people who worshiped her mother.

You can for your own play-though choose to drink, but it is not the best choice and never will be.

[Bann Duncan]

And your argument still ignores the fact that Morrigan leaves the choice to the Inquisitor in the end, wanting to use it herself and stating her qualifications but not pushing.

[Ryzaki]

If she annoys you let her drink from the well.

 

That for me was hilarious.

[Secret Rare]

DO we really want to compare a dalish keeper like Zathrian to Morrigan? Or a Dalish Inquisitor who can be the best friend or even lover of the Dread Wolf to Morrigan? 

She thinks that she know things better than anyone else while this is not true at all, her sister from the comics is more Humble and wise than her.

If she want the well of sorrow so badly she can have it and she shall paid the price .

During that quest i had put my trust into Solas and i Had followed his advice.

[macready1988]

I dont play as an elf and i cant stanf them, worst fantasy elves ive ever played a game with them in, so maybe thats why i didnt mind.

I for one though dont see Solas as the dread wolf (edit: well maybe its more accurate to say i see the dread wolf as far more mundane than most do and i dont believe in the elven gods)and all that other shtick. And to be fair the game never flat out states it just like with andraste so all i saw was yet more ancient elven magic which morrigan proved fairly competant with.

So yeah, in my case it was just screw the elves and their wacked out beliefs morrigan wants it morrigan gets it.

Plus having her turn into a dragon and be present at the end game was worth it. All the other cameos sucked badly compared to morrigans. Even Lelianas role failed to impress and so did Hawkes.