394 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

wait, she sold them?  I thought there were just collateral damage as part of the war

 

It's murky, but there's a house of skulls in Redcliffe village where the Venatori set up shot. It's the one that contains the Ocularum codex, and talks about how troublesome it is to make them.

 

Now, it is possible that the Venatori ignored the Tranquil the mages brought with them to Redcliffe, and instead spent great time and effort to hunt them out from the hinterlands and wherever else to kill them under precise conditions, and only then brought them back to Redcliffe to store their skulls on shelves... but Occam's Razor would suggest otherwise.

 

Well, it's not like anyone cares about the Tranquil. A pity.

[Boost32]

not possible since Fiona wasn't being held by it or under its control....
 
as far as we know......

the envy demon can take anyone form, but to impersonate better he kidnnap his target to study it.
It was the Envy Demon in Val Royeuax, he send you to Redcliff because he don't want you in Therinfall and because the Venatori were preparing a trap for you (Alexius seems to expect you when you arrive in the tavern).

[Karlone123]

I wanted to help the Mages at one point, but I took her as prisoner of the Inquisition.

[Steelcan]

wasn't Barris with the Lord Seeker who was definitely the envy demon?

 

Wouldn't he notice if he you know...turned into an elf

[Boost32]

wasn't Barris with the Lord Seeker who was definitely the envy demon?
 
Wouldn't he notice if he you know...turned into an elf

He doesnt transform right away, he can always dismiss his escort to be alone.

[Steelcan]

He doesnt transform right away, he can always dismiss his escort to be alone.

"Please excuse me gentlemen, now that we have decided to abandon Val Royeaux, I'm going to disappear back into the city for a short bit, no one follow me"

[Mr.House]

wasn't Barris with the Lord Seeker who was definitely the envy demon?

 

Wouldn't he notice if he you know...turned into an elf

He's the "lord seeker" he can easily slip away with no issues, do note that Barris already knew something was wrong anyways, it's why the surprise attack while still a surprise was not a fatal surprise for him at Redoubt.

[Boost32]

"Please excuse me gentlemen, now that we have decided to abandon Val Royeaux, I'm going to disappear back into the city for a short bit, no one follow me"

"Before we go back to Therinfall I need to meet someone, you guys can go back before me"
Its not plausible?

[herkles]

It could have been another envy demon?

[Steelcan]

"Before we go back to Therinfall I need to meet someone, you guys can go back before me"
Its not plausible?

a little unusual imo, grandstanding an exit, only to go right back certainly detracts from the sense of drama

[AresKeith]

It could have been another envy demon?

 

I heard it was time travel

[renfrees]

I wonder how can you alter time locally? There's so many strings attached.

[Dermain]

Still not seeing any proof of mind control.  She's incompetent, and her desperation makes her more so.

 

Frankly, the Mages deserved a better leader.  One that wouldn't force them into a war they couldn't win and then sell them into slavery when her decisions lead them to the inevitable dead end.

 

Which would indicate that Fiona is not a "Mary Sue".

 

A "Mary Sue" would just be able to wave their hands and everything would have been better. Since that didn't happen until the Inquisitor shows up it detracts even more from that silly belief.

 

Her appearance at Haven doesn't really change this calculus. You claim that she has to have been mind-controlled in order to attack the Inquisition, but why is that the case? She's working for the Venatori, and the Inquisition is the enemy of the Venatori. It's perfectly possible to explain her presence without resorting to mind control. But even if she were being mind-controlled at Haven, that doesn't mean she was under the same compulsion at Redcliffe. You're making an argument from essentially nonexistent evidence.

 

The official guide states this for the boss fight with Fiona.

 

 

As the leader of the rebel mages, and brainwashed by the Venatori, Fiona is a formidable threat...

 

I believe that's where the whole "MIND CONTROL" thing comes from.

 

Now, I don't hate Fiona. I don't think that the label of "Mary Sue" is useful. I have no particular interest in tearing her down. I simply believe that, based on the evidence of the books and this game, she is a poor leader who made a series of poor decisions that negatively impacted the welfare of her followers.

 

It never has been.

 

People just toss it out because they dislike her character. Fiona, and by extent Alistair, are the worst examples of "Mary Sue's" I have ever seen. 

 

As I mentioned before, if she were truly a "Mary Sue" she would have just waved her hand at Alexius when she finally realized (which she would have known at the start if she was indeed a "Mary Sue") that Alexius was going to screw her and the mages over. Alexius would then go "You're right, I was being evil and I release you from your servitude because you're so impressive" which of course doesn't happen until the Inquisitor shows up...because...the main character is generally the "Mary Sue" by default...

 

Keep in mind, I know you're not one of the people  saying that Fiona is a "Mary Sue".

[Sports72Xtrm]

Really? This is Dragon Age. Women and Men are equally capable in all respects. Yet Fiona ONLY presses the men into conscription? If thats true, then we can add sexism to the list. Did she consult these men I wonder? If its true, its once again Bioware forgetting things they set up and trying to have their cake and eat it too.

The phrase she used was "you said not all of them had to be military." I assumed Alexius assured her that only the mages with war mage training needed to be military and fight in the legion while the apprentices and those who can barely light a candle become quezars shifting papers around for a tevinter Circle or some other mundane task. Yet once Alexius took over Redcliffe and everyone in the south is alienated against mages, he changed the terms of the indentured servitude to "everyone gets 10 years in the legion" leaving Fiona all

 

I don't know if this decision was a Fiona decision or if they put it to a vote and the pro-Tevinter alliance people won out. In all the cases I know Fiona, she's always been democratic and forthright about the decisions involving the mages. The mages in redcliffe all have differing opinions on the alliance, some for it, some against it but considering some of them are Tevinter infiltrators who helped the motion go along as well, the popular vote was likely biased.

[Nightdragon8]

Yea, I think people are seriously starting to miss use the term Marry Sue to mean something compeltely different.

 

The 'Mind control' thing, for me came when we met her at redcliff and she didn't know and wondered why we where there. Then Mr. Treventor showed up, and told that she is now in under his command. Then he said he wanted to meet you. Which then said in my mind, did he mind control her to give me a msg to go there.

[Sports72Xtrm]

And then she learned she was duped and she did nothing in response, she didn't even try to do anything. That is my biggest issue with her. She made horrible mistakes that could have possibly appeared reasonable (they weren't) in her desperation. But when she realizes the actual cost she doesn't bother trying to correct them.

Perhaps but imo, what would correcting them mean? When Alexius took over Redcliffe there was no turning back on the alliance with Alexius, they are dependent on him for protection. At that moment, they have to go forward. Ferelden will offer them no leniency when they are complicit in displacing the Redcilffe citizens and they still have to worry about the templars. Perhaps once they were being transported somewhere north like she assumed her followers would be she could have thought of something but unbeknownst to her, Alexius was planning on brainwashing them to an Elder One cult. The time wasn't right, it never was going to be right sadly. The situation was futile.

[o Ventus]

Yea, I think people are seriously starting to miss use the term Marry Sue to mean something compeltely different.

 

"Starting"?

 

I think you give people here too much credit.

[Mr.House]

"Starting"?

 

I think you give people here too much credit.

Well we could always use idiot, incompetent, sell out ect.

[AresKeith]

I wouldn't call Fiona a mary sue

 

Just a special snowflake who's a moron 

[dantares83]

Given that the Redcliffe plotline pretty explicitly indicates that it was intended as a trap for the Inquisitor, I never thought it was the actual Fiona herself. Especially since there was no other instance of the Inquisitor and friends remembering any time warp or alternate timeline except for the bad future itself.

 

Plus, doesn't the demon act surprised that you aren't going to Redcliffe if you go to the Templars?

yeah, i still don't understand this part as it was not properly explained. i always thought is a demon Alexius summoned to impersonate her as a trap for the inquisitor.

[Morroian]

Yea, I think people are seriously starting to miss use the term Marry Sue to mean something compeltely different.

 

 

FWIW I saw a survey recently of fannish terms that sci fi authors hated and mary sue was top of the list because people do not understand it and use it indiscriminately.

[DarthLaxian]

I've never read the books/played the side games/etc that she's featured in, all I know of her is from DAI, and what she tells you in game. I've also read the Wiki, and it doesn't sound like she's a terrible person aside from maybe starting the mage rebellion. Is that why everybody hates her? Or was she a jerk in her prior appearances?

 

It's not everybody ^^ (not really, I am not hating her - so I know at least one person who doesn't...I think she acts stupid in the game (you know what I mean...mage-questline), but that's it, she is desperate (not that the templars are any better IMHO...seriously: red lyrium?...idiots!)

 

Hell, I would have liked it if she had a bigger role (mage-advisor - with the possibility of romancing her (seriously she is not that old - she's had a hard life...so what?))...hell, I would have liked a bigger "staff" (I mean we get a spymaster, a general and a diplomat - we don't have a trade-attache (every ambassador has one!), a mage-advisor, a second-in-command (no, Cassy is not it - while I romanced her, I don't fully trust her at the start...after all, she threatens to kill you - multiple times!) etc.

 

greetings LAX

[Dave of Canada]

It's not everybody ^^ (not really, I am not hating her - so I know at least one person who doesn't...I think she acts stupid in the game (you know what I mean...mage-questline), but that's it, she is desperate (not that the templars are any better IMHO...seriously: red lyrium?...idiots!)

 

If you actually do the Templar quest chain, you learn that Templar were betrayed from their higher-ups who corrupted the officers and then used their corruption to help corrupt the other Templar. If you intervene, you stop the corruption before everyone succumbs to it and those Templar who hadn't been corrupted yet join forces with you and the Red Templar become negligible in the grand scheme.

 

Lucius corrupted the Templar to become Red Templar, removing their free will so they can serve Corypheus.

 

Fiona led the mages to the Venatori and those mages become complicit with Corypheus of their own will.

[Sports72Xtrm]

If you actually do the Templar quest chain, you learn that Templar were betrayed from their higher-ups who corrupted the officers and then used their corruption to help corrupt the other Templar. If you intervene, you stop the corruption before everyone succumbs to it and those Templar who hadn't been corrupted yet join forces with you and the Red Templar become negligible in the grand scheme.

 

Fiona led the mages to the Venatori and those mages become complicit with Corypheus of their own will.

 

Lucius corrupted the Templar to become Red Templar, removing their free will so they can serve Corypheus.

Ser Barris knew they were using red lyrium, they just justified it as being ignorant of its effects. Perhaps some were intimidated afterwards once enough of them were corrupted, just as the Venatori intimidated the mages when they took all other options from them. But they all invited the corruption to take root. Which is a double standard as it's a plead to ignorance but the same cannot apply to Fiona and her being manipulated by the Venatori? Why? She was no more aware of their plans to sack redcliffe or brainwash them or change the terms of their deal. In the end, they were all manipulated to become enslaved to Corypheus. the Inquisitor simply rescues one of them. No one is better or worse, all fell prey to idiocy and manipulation.

[Addai]

It's murky, but there's a house of skulls in Redcliffe village where the Venatori set up shot. It's the one that contains the Ocularum codex, and talks about how troublesome it is to make them.
 
Now, it is possible that the Venatori ignored the Tranquil the mages brought with them to Redcliffe, and instead spent great time and effort to hunt them out from the hinterlands and wherever else to kill them under precise conditions, and only then brought them back to Redcliffe to store their skulls on shelves... but Occam's Razor would suggest otherwise.
 
Well, it's not like anyone cares about the Tranquil. A pity.

That's still speculation. The Tranquil don't fight back and according to a couple sources, some of them were just left behind or wandered. They would probably seek out mages as a means to be useful, so it wouldn't be hard to round them up. And even if the Venatori took the ones in Redcliffe, that still doesn't mean Fiona "sold" them.