here is the thing
mages are fighting for freedom, so they join a nation that supports slavery. if they were so supportive of freedom as an ideal then they wouldn't join the country that supports taking it away from others. unless the mages wanted freedom for just themselves. So it sounds like "YEA FREEDOM FOR JUST US MAGES!!!"
And yet people recruit Dorian. fiona just had the bad luck to trusting the wrong Vint.
Dorian isn't an idiot.
He also never sold his own into slavery.
Wasn't aiding in butchering Tranquil(it's possible Fiona knew about this)
Dorian also did not aid the Venatori (Something Fiona willing did)
Dorian isn't an idiot.
He also never sold his own into slavery.
Wasn't aiding in butchering Tranquil(it's possible Fiona knew about this)
Dorian also did not aid the Venatori (Something Fiona willing did)
And Dorian has dat voice.
Which would indicate that Fiona is not a "Mary Sue".
A "Mary Sue" would just be able to wave their hands and everything would have been better. Since that didn't happen until the Inquisitor shows up it detracts even more from that silly belief.
Feel free to point out where I called her a Mary Sue.
And the 'Official' Guide is hardly an unimpeachable source, given how riddled with errors it is.
....erm...
Let's not get into compare and contrasting Tevinter to southern nations here. I'm sure you'll find that nearly everyone here can and will find something to complain about Orlais, Ferelden, its members, and so on. There are still heated debated on whether Loghain was right to retreat at Ostagar or not. And like those debates, I'm beginning to see a tendency show up in this thread.
Absence of an argument does not necessitate support of it.
To clarify, person x says Loghain was right to quit the field at Ostagar and that Cailan wasn't worth sacrificing the whole army for in a charge that may not even have succeeded considering the beacon was so late and the darkspawn were pouring out of the wilds, so person x supports the decision to retreat. Person y gets into a huge tangent about selling elves into slavery, sending a blood mage to poison a rival noble. Person x agrees that such actions were deplorable but Ostagar itself is justifiable. Person Y then accuses person X of supporting all of Loghain's decisions, whether outright or through snide asides, because X isn't bringing them up. X says that he/she doesn't, but because Loghain is to blame for a lot, it's not right to blame him for all, but Y is too far gone now in Loghain hate,
baddy beem, baddy boom, you have the rise of circular arguments that go nowhere.
Fiona was an idiot for trusting Alexius. She would've had far more luck appealing to Teagan or Alistair, and offering services to the crown. Alistair/Anora would've helped them. Trusting a Tevinter Magister is not the smartest thing to do, especially when it comes to servitude, the vints attitude towards it, regardless of deals made at the time, will still have the mages treated as property and no value. Anyone who knows anything about Tevinter culture and how they approach slavery can predict where it was going.
Yes, Fiona may have got some promises out of Alexius to keep the children and such out of the legion, but by giving him all the power in the relationship, she also gave him all power to renege on his deals. She forfeited any power she had to enforce the stipulations she got out of him, which is one thing you do not want to give up whenever you deal with politicians, and that's exactly what a magister is.
But even despite her idiocy, I still think her decision is more justifiable than Lord Seeker Lucius's, the real one we meet in Cassandra's personal quest, even if she doesn't regret it.
I helped the mages because I wanted to get rid of a foreign power in the heart of Ferelden, but I conscripted their butts because Fiona at the very least proved that the mages and their leaders were nowhere near ready to handle the responsibilities that come with autonomy.
I played a little bit on a new Inquisitor that I'm roleplaying as being staunchly pro-mage-freedom (human mage), and I personally liked a bit of dialogue Cassandra has with a random mage.
Mage: We can't work in these conditions! We require better quarters, more supplies-
Cassandra: You are here as allies of the Inquisition, you are not our wards. Get them yourself.
Mage: But how are we supposed to handle-
Cassandra: Deal with it.
*to Inquisitor*
Cassandra: The mages are here as our allies, equals. They need to get used to what that means.
Golden bit of dialogue there.
Alistair may have been the smarter deal in hindsight but I firmly believe that anyone who puts the protection of their people in the hands of a stranger automatically loses all the power no matter what and is forced to put their faith in their protector to do what's right. Could or should Fiona logically put more faith in Alistair and his word to keep her group whole? We've played Origins, we know Alistair's character is one of a compassionate and just man. But to Fiona, even if she knows she's her son, could she jeopardize the survival of those under her care with nothing but a gut instinct and faith in Alistair? It's not exactly the surest of plans. It was a tough call, and faith and the limited information she knows influenced her decision. I will be first to agree she made the wrong choice, but it was tough call so I understand why she made it. Fiona was looking for sancturary for her followers who were all mages, and Ferelden, though maybe could have carved one for them in Ferelden was still in the south were for years they either jailed, oppressed, or slautered them. Tevinter was in the north which was at least less stigmatizing for mages, at least culture wise.
As for conscripting the mages, I guess I'll say it's lenient compared to the alternatives yet I wouldn't call it justice. Conscripting mages as prisoners is a mass punishment on a sect of people for being forced to go along with the deciding vote of the majority and only brought out when they are needed as weapons of war for the inquisition. It's not the same as conscripting the templars who only have a change of job title and organization, the mages are prisoners for the actions and manipulation of a few. It still seems a bit harsh but i understand why some would go that route as an example must be made for people to see that people are going down for the crime. But I wouldn't consider it justice.
so basically as long as everything good happens to the mages: SCREW THE MUNDANES?
Also doesn't take genius to realise that she had very few options at that point and she was desperate. I don't think anyone denies that she made a bad decision but its the outright hate on for her that is bewildering.
Doesn't excuse that amount of stupidity. Really, allying with the Tevinter? When your sole purpose is leading a movement looking for freedom? That amount of stupidity and hypocrisy is bigger than all DA:I areas combined.
If taking responsibility means deferring whatever to do with them to the Inquisitor, they're the same. It's not as if Barris sacrificed himself on behalf of his templars or anything.
Actually, Barris can do exactly that. He can sacrifice himself to break the barrier protecting the Envy Demon to give the Inquisitor a chance to stop it.
so basically as long as everything good happens to the mages: SCREW THE MUNDANES?
Why do you always act like the mages trying to escape the mundane's clutches is some form of vicious reprisal?
Why do you always act like the mages trying to escape the mundane's clutches is some form of vicious reprisal?
So a freedom revolt is a-okay with slavery? as that is what tevinter is built upon.
Doesn't excuse that amount of stupidity. Really, allying with the Tevinter? When your sole purpose is leading a movement looking for freedom? That amount of stupidity and hypocrisy is bigger than all DA:I areas combined.
If your alternative is death or being made tranquil...........
So a freedom revolt is a-okay with slavery? as that is what tevinter is built upon.
the rebel mages aren't trying to impose slavery on the south, they're just want to escape the south. It's just bad luck they happened to align with a crazy cult just like the templars followed an envy demon to take red lyrium.
If your alternative is death or being made tranquil...........
Nah, she could have looked for more alternatives instead of going for something that completely undermines the entirety of reasoning behind the movement she's supposed to lead.
Go to the Inquisition? Go to the Royal Family? Anything that does not involve allying herself with an entity that basically define slavery?
Feel free to point out where I called her a Mary Sue.
And the 'Official' Guide is hardly an unimpeachable source, given how riddled with errors it is.
Fiona came across as being possibly mind controlled actually in game.
Wasn't aiding in butchering Tranquil(it's possible Fiona knew about this)
Dorian also did not aid the Venatori (Something Fiona willing did)
Pretty sure Fiona didn't aid the venatori willingly once she knew about them. Also if anyone thinks she would turn tranquil over to be butchered then they're ignoring the characterisation of her in the books and just want to invent reasons to demonise her.
Go to the Inquisition? Go to the Royal Family? Anything that does not involve allying herself with an entity that basically define slavery?
Inquisition was not an option given the time travel plus its stated outright that Alexius was manipulating the mages behind the scenes to force them into allying with him.
Nah, she could have looked for more alternatives instead of going for something that completely undermines the entirety of reasoning behind the movement she's supposed to lead.
Go to the Inquisition? Go to the Royal Family? Anything that does not involve allying herself with an entity that basically define slavery?
Allying with Inquisition though a possibility if they got there before the Venatori, many still think of it as a militant arm of the Chantry. The first inquisition was the ones who locked mages in the Circles in the first place, which is against their agenda. Ferelden just went through a blight, and it's taking a lot of faith that they'll fight a war for their freedom. The context of their reasoning also plays a factor.
Nah, she could have looked for more alternatives instead of going for something that completely undermines the entirety of reasoning behind the movement she's supposed to lead.
Go to the Inquisition? Go to the Royal Family? Anything that does not involve allying herself with an entity that basically define slavery?
She also is NOT limited to Fereldan. As grand enhanter she would have been based in Cumberland, in Nevarra. She would have known of the Mortalitasi. That order might have been willing to help them out for deals and policitics, and the mortalitasi while creepy as all hell are not slave owners.
also here is a thought, she could have fought to the death for freedom. Not every rebellion is succesful, but sometimes they can serve as lights for future revolts. It also would make me respect her a lot if she was willing to sacrafice her life for the cause of mage freedom.
Fiona came across as being possibly mind controlled actually in game.
When and where? She willingly throws her lot in with Tevinter, justifies it by saying there's no other choice and then complains about it immediately after you walk into Redcliffe Castle. In the "bad" future, she's still fully in control of her mental faculties. If she's mind controlled, whoever is controlling her is worse at their job than Fiona.
Fiona came across as being possibly mind controlled actually in game.
I have yet to see any evidence of that.
Fiona is an anti sue. Yes I am calling her an idiot with too many flaws and with insane amount of Influence in the situation she is in. a Well Developed and a Well written Character will have a balance of being capable and having some flaws and still be a good character. Conversely A Under Developed or Poorly Written Character can easily become some form of a Mary Sue.Yes kids there are different types of Sue in context of the Story or stories.
Anti Sue is a Mary sue that is still a special snowflake while having insane amount of flaws including idiocy while having influencing several different events. And Side note: yes there are several different versions of a Sue ranging from Canon Sue to Possession Sue to Anti Sue to Creator's Pet.
Fiona came across as being possibly mind controlled actually in game.
No. She didn't, and stop using that cheap excuse to defend her, Fiona herself reveal that it was her own decision to join Tevinter when you talk to her in Skyhold, and Alexius didn't mind-control her as Fiona wasn't enthralled.
Pretty sure Fiona didn't aid the venatori willingly once she knew about them. Also if anyone thinks she would turn tranquil over to be butchered then they're ignoring the characterisation of her in the books and just want to invent reasons to demonise her.
The only thing that is made up is the extent of her so called mind control. Which makes anyone using the mind control defense insane for allying with her. How deep is this mind control? Was anything planted in her subconcious? Could she be a spy, even unintentional?
Her mind control seems to be so convenient in the way that it disappears the moment she gets the Inquisitor on her side.
Also, I said she could have possibly known about it. Which means there is a chance she didn't. What we do know at least, is that she didn't care enough to check on those within her care.
The only thing that is made up is the extent of her so called mind control. Which makes anyone using the mind control defense insane for allying with her. How deep is this mind control? Was anything planted in her subconcious? Could she be a spy, even unintentional?
Her mind control seems to be so convenient in the way that it disappears the moment she gets the Inquisitor on her side.
Also, I said she could have possibly known about it. Which means there is a chance she didn't. What we do know at least, is that she didn't care enough to check on those within her care.
Well, they were 'only' Tranquil after all. It was easy enough for her to abandon them to their own devices on the way to Redcliffe, I don't see why she would care enough to keep track of the ones that made it.
No. She didn't, and stop using that cheap excuse to defend her, Fiona herself reveal that it was her own decision to join Tevinter when you talk to her in Skyhold, and Alexius didn't mind-control her as Fiona wasn't enthralled.
This reminds me of that killer in DA2.
DEMONS MADE HIM DO IT SO IT'S FINE
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