394 réponses à ce sujet

[Deanna]

Uh correction...there are mage slaves in Tevinter, Fenris tells Anders about it in DA2

[arelenriel]

Some of them are, actually.

Regardless, though, Fiona's group did not possess Tevinter citizenship, which Alexius used as an excuse to put them into "indentured servitude" as part of the naturalization process.

An indenture is not slavery, technically, assuming that the indenture is a good-faith contract binding both parties and that it is entered into without any coercion. Fiona and Alexius' arrangement fulfilled neither requirement.

Indenture is not slavery but how many of the rebel mages were city elves- or Dalish throwaways like Minaeve... elves typically are slaves in Tevinter and those that arent' may as well be.

[Morroian]

Uh correction...there are mage slaves in Tevinter, Fenris tells Anders about it in DA2

 

Reading the wiki if you show you have magic you move out of that rank even elves, Fenris sister was apparently not a slave. In the dialogue if its the same I'm thinking of I got the sense that it was done illegally not formally condoned as part of Tevinter society.  

[King Dragonlord]

A point that hasn't been addressed in this thread about Sues. 

 

In amateur fanfiction, yes a Sue might manifest as a purple haired dual katana wield girl with rainbow irises who's half Vampire/ half Elf (in a series that has never had either one) and beguiles the main male heart-throb away from his long established canonical love interest just by batting her eyelashes while being better than everyone at everything automatically.

 

But a professional writer who falls into the trap of writing a Sue is savvy enough to avoid such obvious markings, resulting in subtler examples of Sues who are Sues nonetheless. Likewise as these are adult professional writers and not 13 year old girls posting their first story on fanfiction.com, we expect more and so it doesn't take as much for a character to qualify as a sue.

 

That said, I haven't read the books but after reading the bulleted list on page 3 of this thread, WOW that might even qualify by fanfiction.com standards let alone professional writer standards. What really cinches it for me is her having the Taint removed even though thats never been done before. All so we can have this amazing heroine with this list of accomplishments who was also Alistair's mom, STILL somehow be alive. The mark of a Sue is having your cake and eating it too. Not being willing to play by the normal rules. 

 

DAI does redeem things a bit by balancing her ridiculous awesome with ridiculous stupid. 

 

But I gotta tell you, if a player character was this special people would be rolling their eyes, and you're allowed to get away with more Sue-ishness in a player character because your audience is stepping into that role. 

 

P.S. I think Sues catch a little too much flack. Especially the ones written by first timers on sites like fanfiction.com or whatever. When you're doing it for free, there's no harm in indulging. Its just you gotta get it out of your system and grow up eventually if you're going to do this for a living.

[Storvacker]

Why do people keep saying she sold out the mages? She's going to be a slave too. She took her only in her mind logical opportunity to save her people (not to mention Tevinter agents were infiltrating and manipulating them). It just didn't turn out well.

[King Dragonlord]

Why do people keep saying she sold out the mages? She's going to be a slave too. She took her only in her mind logical opportunity to save her people (not to mention Tevinter agents were infiltrating and manipulating them). It just didn't turn out well.

Whether she knew the consequences or not, thats still a radical decision for her to make on behalf of all of her people. With the chaos and Chantry in fighting she could surely have found better options close to home.

[Storvacker]

I don't like her because I feel like she's too 'special snowflake'.

 

• She was an elf, slave, and mage who got away with murdering her owner in a world that hates slaves, elves, and mages.
• She gets taken to the Circle where she is considered so awesome, she gets conscripted as a Warden.
• She is considered such a great warden that she gets to go on adventures with a King and his best friend, who is a hero in his own right, AND the HoF's wise Warden Mentor before he was the wise warden mentor.
• She is considered to be the best mage the King, Hero of the Realm, and Wise Mentor have ever seen.
• She encounters and deals with threats (brood mothers, the Architect) that the Player Character discovers, only she does it first and better.
• In spite of having zero in common, in fact she hates everything about him and spends most of their interactions hating him, she and the King 'fall in love' and she gets pregnant with his child.
• She is, unlike any Grey Warden ever, completely cured of the Taint.
• She goes back to the Circle, and in spite of not having been in one for years, is elected to the highest office of the Circle hierarchy.  Never mind there being choices available who have more in common with their fellow Circle mages and more experience with Circle life and politics.
• She attempts to get a vote passed for Circle separation and fails.  In spite of what the Anti-Templar crowd would have you believe the Templars are like, nothing bad happens to her because of it.  She isn't abused, removed from her position, or 'disappeared'.
• She and her cronies manipulate or take advantage of events to force another vote, one that ignores what the main body of the mages want in favor of exploiting an emotionally charged situation involving key votes on an electoral council.  She drags the Mages into a war they knew would happen, regardless of what most of the mages want.
• Oh, and she's the mother of the HoF Warden Companion and (potentially) King of Ferelden.

 

As I've said before, there's enough accomplishments in Fiona's back story for several characters.  She's just too special, and it's irritating.

 

However, as briefly mentioned above, her being a complete idiot in DA:I, accepting Tevinter help and selling herself and the other mages into slavery, somewhat makes up from her out of game characterization.

- She killed her owner and was taken to a Circle because of it.

- She showed magical prowess and practically begged to join the Wardens, who don't have too many recruits outside of the Blight.

- She is in a standard Warden group with many Wardens that happens to interact with Maric and as a result Loghain. The Duncan point is moot because this is the backstory of why he became that to the HoF.

- She is a good mage. This is why she became a Warden. They help to train her. She is talented. Maric is like the perfect king and no one yells Sue there.

- She, like every other character in the Calling, encounters an Awakening enemy.

- She and Maric fight but really end up in love like people in real life. Opposites attract. She gets pregnant, which tends to happen when people have sex in medieval settings with lackluster birth control.

- She is cured of the Taint as a plot point important to the story, even in Inquisition. This gets her kicked out of the Order she strives to help. She needs to be alive to give birth. This is the only slightly Sue-ish thing about her. She then decides to give up her son because she can't actually have everything she wants.

- She goes back to the Circle because now, as an experienced woman, she feels she can help there. As a former Grey Warden, she possesses the fame necessary to get herself elected.

- She fails at her objective to free the Circle. Taking out the Grand Enchanter, however, would be too bold a political move so the Templars don't do it.

- She forces another vote in maybe not the most altruistic way but it was kind of coming anyways (that's not Sueish, by the way.) In the end, she allows the fraternities to vote because that's what the mages agree. She agrees to go along with the side that wins.

- She is Alistair's mother. Maric is his father and arguably more of a Mary Sue. When you romance a king, it is probable that your offspring will also grow to be kings.

 

Most of these accomplishments are connected. She's barely a Mary Sue and your comments implying the greatness of the HoF who Fiona apparently can't be any better than ever make him/her sound way more sue-ish than Fiona.

 

 

Whether she knew the consequences or not, thats still a radical decision for her to make on behalf of all of her people. With the chaos and Chantry in fighting she could surely have found better options close to home.

She made a bad decision, yes, but tell me, what were her other options that she knew about? Give me some examples because I haven't seen any.

[Volourn]

"She betrayed Ferelden and then has the gall to protest when the monarch rightly boots her pointy eared butt from the country."

 

Feralden betrayed her first. Should slaves and prisoners really be loyalt to a country? Nah.

 

Now, her siding with tevinter seemed dumb but desperation does that. She's not eprfect but she's better than those who are pro slavery.

[King Dragonlord]

 

- She killed her owner and was taken to a Circle because of it.

- She showed magical prowess and practically begged to join the Wardens, who don't have too many recruits outside of the Blight.

- She is in a standard Warden group with many Wardens that happens to interact with Maric and as a result Loghain. The Duncan point is moot because this is the backstory of why he became that to the HoF.

- She is a good mage. This is why she became a Warden. They help to train her. She is talented. Maric is like the perfect king and no one yells Sue there.

- She, like every other character in the Calling, encounters an Awakening enemy.

- She and Maric fight but really end up in love like people in real life. Opposites attract. She gets pregnant, which tends to happen when people have sex in medieval settings with lackluster birth control.

- She is cured of the Taint as a plot point important to the story, even in Inquisition. This gets her kicked out of the Order she strives to help. She needs to be alive to give birth. This is the only slightly Sue-ish thing about her. She then decides to give up her son because she can't actually have everything she wants.

- She goes back to the Circle because now, as an experienced woman, she feels she can help there. As a former Grey Warden, she possesses the fame necessary to get herself elected.

- She fails at her objective to free the Circle. Taking out the Grand Enchanter, however, would be too bold a political move so the Templars don't do it.

- She forces another vote in maybe not the most altruistic way but it was kind of coming anyways (that's not Sueish, by the way.) In the end, she allows the fraternities to vote because that's what the mages agree. She agrees to go along with the side that wins.

- She is Alistair's mother. Maric is his father and arguably more of a Mary Sue. When you romance a king, it is probable that your offspring will also grow to be kings.

 

Most of these accomplishments are connected. She's barely a Mary Sue and your comments implying the greatness of the HoF who Fiona apparently can't be any better than ever make him/her sound way more sue-ish than Fiona.

 

 

She made a bad decision, yes, but tell me, what were her other options that she knew about? Give me some examples because I haven't seen any.

 

 

 

Go into the countryside or hole up in abandoned housing or something. She commands a force of mages. Just get away from the templars and maybe shove around a few locals since shes not above it. Maybe help out somewhere and prove the worth of her group to some people who are in need. Desperate people are less likely to say no to mage help. Then when the templars do show up, you got a community vouching for you. Maybe it doesn't work out but at least try that before carting your whole band off to Tevinter where slavery is still legal and mages are locked in constant power struggles (sure Fiona knows enough about Tevinter to know that given her amazing background). 

 

Also, Fiona didn't have to be cured of the Taint to have Alistair, she was cured so a writer could keep using a pet character (There could easily have been another Mage leader for Inquisition, why does it have to be Alistair's mom?) . As for her giving up the baby, yeah, Sues will break setting rules but they usually don't flat out contradict established plot. 

[Dave of Canada]

"She betrayed Ferelden and then has the gall to protest when the monarch rightly boots her pointy eared butt from the country."

 

Feralden betrayed her first. Should slaves and prisoners really be loyalt to a country? Nah.

Ferelden betrayed her by allowing all mages to reside in their country and be protected from the Chantry?

[Volourn]

Protected? They were prisoners in the towers. Banned from seeing families. Threatened with having their personalities completed wiped (tranquil is not good). Murdered in cold blood. Feralden treats mages horribly. You do not deserve loyalty when you lock people up in a tower and enslave them.

 

Plus, we know Feralden also has a bad habit of slavery. *cough* elves *cough*

[Augustei]

Protected? They were prisoners in the towers. Banned from seeing families. Threatened with having their personalities completed wiped (tranquil is not good). Murdered in cold blood. Feralden treats mages horribly. You do not deserve loyalty when you lock people up in a tower and enslave them.

 

Plus, we know Feralden also has a bad habit of slavery. *cough* elves *cough*

1 instance is hardly a habit

[arelenriel]

Not sure what game you were playing but Fereldan does not have a long history of enslaving elves- those were the actions of two men.. Loghain and Howe Sr. .. not the entire country.. and they sold the elves in slavery to Tevinter not within Fereldan .Yes alienage elves are treated horribly but they are still technically free and they were treated horribly everywhere.

 

Fereldan also did not treat its mages that badly. If you played DAO the Circle was granted freedom by Alistair on the mage wardens request.. The only reason a rebellion occurred in the Fereldan Circle was that Uldred was bought off by Loghain to cause divisiveness within the Circle to keep them from allying with Wardens but was not aware that Uldred and his minions were blood mages. It can be pointed out that Iriving and Gregoir have a fairly decent relationship for a First Enchanter and Knight Commander and the only two who express unhappiness about the Fereldan Circle are Jowan (cause he can't be with his girlfirend) and Anders who hates committing to anything, and is unwilling to be caged anywhere.

 

 

This does not justify the Circles, and it does not justify how elves are treated but still it needs to be emphasized that as far as Circles go, and as far as how Elves are treated Fereldan is better than most-esp after the end of the 5th Blight when your Warden can give the Elves their own Bann (Shianni), and their own Country (Ostagar), and grant the Mages Circle in Fereldan their freedom.

[Aimi]

Now, her siding with tevinter seemed dumb but desperation does that. She's not eprfect but she's better than those who are pro slavery.

 
Her "agreement" with Alexius gave her mages worse terms than they had in the Circles, and in fact can very reasonably be described as slavery.
 

Protected? They were prisoners in the towers. Banned from seeing families. Threatened with having their personalities completed wiped (tranquil is not good). Murdered in cold blood. Feralden treats mages horribly. You do not deserve loyalty when you lock people up in a tower and enslave them.
 
Plus, we know Feralden also has a bad habit of slavery. *cough* elves *cough*

You are so far away from the point that you'd need a telescope to see it.

After the rebellion broke out, Fiona and her adherents were sheltered in the arling of Redcliffe. Ferelden's ruler and Arl Teagan defied the Chantry and the templars in order to ensure that Fiona and her mages were out of harm's way. There appear to have been no terms whatsoever; Fiona et al. were not returned to Circles, were not conscripted into royal forces, and so on.

She repaid this kindness and risk-taking on the part of Ferelden's monarch by signing up to be enslaved by an invading force of Tevinters who promptly launched a coup in Redcliffe and drove out the arl.

[Dave of Canada]

Protected? They were prisoners in the towers. Banned from seeing families. Threatened with having their personalities completed wiped (tranquil is not good). Murdered in cold blood. Feralden treats mages horribly. You do not deserve loyalty when you lock people up in a tower and enslave them.

 

Plus, we know Feralden also has a bad habit of slavery. *cough* elves *cough*

 

They weren't prisoners in towers, we've already got evidence from the Ferelden tower that showed mages were allowed to leave if they were under good behavior and tranquility is only used in extreme cases, under the acknowledgment of both the First Enchanter and the Knight-Commander.  I'd need evidence that any mage in the tower was murdered or enslaved.

 

Elven slavery was also done under a different regime while under dire circumstances and either way, it doesn't stop the fact that the current regime offered the mages protection from the Chantry and they betrayed that trust by siding with Tevinter--an enemy nation--and seizing the territory of the noble lord who had offered them shelter. My Inquisitor who decided imprisonment was being generous, as that's a small price for treason.

[ttestagr]

 
Her "agreement" with Alexius gave her mages worse terms than they had in the Circles, and in fact can very reasonably be described as slavery.
 

You are so far away from the point that you'd need a telescope to see it.

After the rebellion broke out, Fiona and her adherents were sheltered in the arling of Redcliffe. Ferelden's ruler and Arl Teagan defied the Chantry and the templars in order to ensure that Fiona and her mages were out of harm's way. There appear to have been no terms whatsoever; Fiona et al. were not returned to Circles, were not conscripted into royal forces, and so on.

She repaid this kindness and risk-taking on the part of Ferelden's monarch by signing up to be enslaved by an invading force of Tevinters who promptly launched a coup in Redcliffe and drove out the arl.

 

Dude, the Tevinter deal was done due to explicit magical interference to mess with her decisions.  Time travel flat out is one of them, outright stated.  What is more, its remarked how crazy out of character the decision is, and then we find out later there is a huge demon messing with everyone's head in Thedas working for Corypheus.  Our likely culprit for why she would be so desperately scared that she'd make a decision even the game is telling you is out of character.

[DaySeeker]

I might feel better about her if it was explained who asked the inquisitor to see the mages.  Her denial of it seems like a lie since we have seen no other instances of impersonation, magical or otherwise, and no one steps forward to claim responsibility, there also don't seem to be any hints on who else it might have been or why they would send us her way and do nothing else on behalf of the mages.  Aligning with Tevinter was just, mages aren't well-liked and Tevinter less so, how did she imagine that would ever work out, and why does she get to speak unilaterally for all the other mages?  It seems completely insane to me.  

[Aimi]

Dude, the Tevinter deal was done due to explicit magical interference to mess with her decisions.  Time travel flat out is one of them, outright stated.  What is more, its remarked how crazy out of character the decision is, and then we find out later there is a huge demon messing with everyone's head in Thedas working for Corypheus.  Our likely culprit for why she would be so desperately scared that she'd make a decision even the game is telling you is out of character.

"Dude"?

You're trying to start an argument about something that wasn't in my post. I was simply continuing the thread of "Fiona's decision is a betrayal of the actions taken for the benefit of herself and her followers by the Fereldan government"; if that betrayal was caused by magical interference and a demon as you say, then it was still a betrayal. Just one with, supposedly, extenuating circumstances.

But time travel got Alexius to Redcliffe before the Inquisition; it did not make Fiona sign herself and her followers into servitude. That is not an out of character decision for Fiona, but it is a stupid one - and "stupid" is well within her wheelhouse, as Asunder makes fairly clear. Varric, for one, seems to think that Fiona and the other mages are prone to making bad decisions (which is, y'know, the opposite of OOC), and that the agreement with Alexius was one such. The Inquisitor can also point out how dumb it was, both during the Redcliffe confrontations and afterward; the second time, Fiona will continue to defend it as a good idea, along with the entire revolt, because of course she does. Fear demon or no fear demon, she's still a doofus.

Which makes me think that those extenuating circumstances you claim aren't all that extenuating after all.

Either way, though, Fiona's decision was an outright betrayal of the Fereldan monarch and the arl of Redcliffe. IIRC, in the confrontation at Redcliffe, she doesn't even try to argue otherwise, centering her appeal instead on her followers' personal plight and need for shelter. One would imagine that if Fiona herself was unwilling to contest a point, her Internet followers surely ought to be as well.

[HTTP 404]

because she is Alistair's mother!  kidding

[Hazegurl]

I'm in the middle of a second playthough and this time I picked the Templars and I don't regret it one bit. Especially after I took Vivienne with me to Redcliffe and we went into one of the houses to see the skulls that you find the shards with. I didn't even notice it last playthrough. Vivienne gets upset and mentions that they were the skulls of the Tranquil.  How much can we really keep blaming on "Magical mind control"?  I'm now supposed to believe Fiona had no idea they were mass producing these Oculum skulls by killing the Tranquil?

 

I actually prefer the Templar quest to the mage one anyway. It seems more personal and helped me flesh out my Inquisitor's fears et al about the possible future he could create. Whereas the Mage one was "This is what will happen if the bad guys win."  Both were well done but the Templar one was more of a fight with personal demons. I also liked killing the Templar leaders who sided with the enemy whereas with the Mages, you can't even punish Fiona.

[SofaJockey]

"Why does everybody hate Fiona?"

 

Flawed title OP.

Everyone does not hate Fiona - I don't.

Also, 'hate'? 

A rather strong emotional response for a NPC, 'dislike' would be more appropriate.

 

"Why do some people dislike Fiona?"

 

Fixed it for you 

[Nightdragon8]

I literally just came from a "Which character do you love to hate thread" and I wrote Fiona, funny I see this thread now xD

While I have read Asunder and Masked Empire, I have not read the Calling.

Minor spoilers ahead

1. She started the Mage Rebellion.

2. She agitated the mages before the Rebellion.

3. She said "**** the Divine" even though the Divine was trying to help mages. Reckless.

4. She took advantage of Ferelden's hospitality and forced native Redcliffe citizens to flee from mages.

5. She pledged all the mages to Tevinter. We see what happens in that future without the Inquisitor to stop them.

6. She becomes useless pretty quickly when things get rough, she was pathetic in front of Alexius.

7. She attacks Haven. Like, wtf. While you're loading the Trebuchet, she literally start attacking you alongside the Venatori, no mercy, no words even. 

1. ok

2. you sure she 'agitated' them? I mean I think they where already agitated she just voiced her opinion.

3. Was she really or just placate? Can anyone really know?

4. I thought that happened only after Tevinter took control?

5. Did she really? I mean she was already shown to been mindcontroled and didn't know about it.

6. You mean the fact that she was probably under some sort of "you can't harm me" thing.

7. Only if you pick Templars.

 

So really the only real complates is the first 3, the rest are in game.

[SurelyForth]

I'm pretty sure that the Fiona who met the Inquisitor and Cass in Val Royeaux was...out of time. That's how it was supposed to go, but before the Inquisitor could get to Redcliffe, it got overwritten by time-traveling Tevinters who capitalized on the very real panic Fiona must have felt immediately after the Divine died in yet another magical-looking explosion.

 

Anyway, to make it clear, Fiona is not a Mary Sue by any definition. She does not get to have her cake and eat it, too, in literally any situation in her life. She escapes slavery and ends up in a Circle only to be abused. She escapes abuse to become a Warden only to lose the ability to be a Warden. She meets a king and has his son, but she can't be with the king and she can't keep the son. She returns to the Circle and does well for awhile, but she even loses her power in that situation once the rebellion is over. Then there's the fact that she can get reamed out by her son (possibly forcing her to accept conscription of herself and the rest of the mages by the Inquisition) or lose him in Here Lies the Abyss. No matter what happens, she never has a happy interaction with Alistair nor does she get the emotional payoff of...anything. She ends up a complete nobody, reviled by some and ignored by most. Her arc is more like Hawke's than it is the Warden's.

[Nightdragon8]

I'm pretty sure that the Fiona who met the Inquisitor and Cass in Val Royeaux was...out of time. That's how it was supposed to go, but before the Inquisitor could get to Redcliffe, it got overwritten by time-traveling Tevinters who capitalized on the very real panic Fiona must have felt immediately after the Divine died in yet another magical-looking explosion.

 

Anyway, to make it clear, Fiona is not a Mary Sue by any definition. She does not get to have her cake and eat it, too, in literally any situation in her life. She escapes slavery and ends up in a Circle only to be abused. She escapes abuse to become a Warden only to lose the ability to be a Warden. She meets a king and has his son, but she can't be with the king and she can't keep the son. She returns to the Circle and does well for awhile, but she even loses her power in that situation once the rebellion is over. Then there's the fact that she can get reamed out by her son (possibly forcing her to accept conscription of herself and the rest of the mages by the Inquisition) or lose him in Here Lies the Abyss. No matter what happens, she never has a happy interaction with Alistair nor does she get the emotional payoff of...anything. She ends up a complete nobody, reviled by some and ignored by most. Her arc is more like Hawke's than it is the Warden's.

thats an intresting theory... because you don't hear of the issues in redcliffe until then... and with Tevinter obviously using the time magic to get there in a timely matter...

 

but sadly 4th dimensional thinking on the issue will take me a few days less i risk a migraine,

[Allazor]

*Disclaimer* i still haven't played DA:I but i watched A LOT of spoilers on youtube just to know how not to make stupid choices XD

 

On Topic, For me Fiona and her character made the mage storyline even more exciting to watch. I loved how she just seems desperate and alone in all of it, she is tired and wants to save those people around her but she lacks the strength to go on. It made me feel bad for her and i wanted to help her even more and after i learned that she is Alistair's mother, well i read the Masked Empire so i know what happens to half elves in Thedas. She sacrificed her own happiness for a better future for her son and now he is king ( in all of my world states ) like his father wanted. She deserves a rest, she deserves to be happy i will gladly take the mages in and finish what my Hawke started at Kirkwall, what he promised to a friend "Mages shall be free" and the Inquisition will make it so .

 

I also watched the templars storyline and it was compelling, it made me feel pitty for them even, and after Meredith i fought it not possible and i wanted even to save them at least in one of my playthroughs of the game. But the person playing for my good luck took Vivienne with them and she couldn't be more happy about bringing "sanity and order"  back to the world. So i won't be saving them ever now , thanks Viv.