394 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumix19]

I might feel better about her if it was explained who asked the inquisitor to see the mages.  Her denial of it seems like a lie since we have seen no other instances of impersonation, magical or otherwise, and no one steps forward to claim responsibility, there also don't seem to be any hints on who else it might have been or why they would send us her way and do nothing else on behalf of the mages.  Aligning with Tevinter was just, mages aren't well-liked and Tevinter less so, how did she imagine that would ever work out, and why does she get to speak unilaterally for all the other mages?  It seems completely insane to me.  

To be fair I don't think she does. When you go to the tavern in Redcliffe (where you can recruit the Tranquil agent) you can talk to a few mages about how they feel about Tevinter. One guy says he doesn't feel comfortable and comes off as a real ignoramus by saying Tevinter does child sacrifice and one girl says she's happy with the alliance because Tevinter knows how to treat mages properly or something like that. So it's not like all the mages disagreed with her decision.

[Addai]

That said, I haven't read the books but after reading the bulleted list on page 3 of this thread, WOW that might even qualify by fanfiction.com standards let alone professional writer standards. What really cinches it for me is her having the Taint removed even though thats never been done before. All so we can have this amazing heroine with this list of accomplishments who was also Alistair's mom, STILL somehow be alive. The mark of a Sue is having your cake and eating it too. Not being willing to play by the normal rules.

What's the trope term for taking forum ranting at face value and operating as if it's true?

Fiona has weaknesses and foibles from the beginning- most of what this very topic has been about. How can she simultaneously be perfect darling and the worst mage leader ever?

The removal of the Calling is obviously a plot point they're exploring further. It wasn't just for Fiona. We don't yet know how she lost it, but it wasn't necessary for her story, as best I can tell. She'd still be alive as a Warden. So all of that "she isn't tainted, Mary Sueeee" is just irrelevant. All that aspect of Fiona's story does is establish that it's possible.
 

Go into the countryside or hole up in abandoned housing or something. She commands a force of mages. Just get away from the templars and maybe shove around a few locals since shes not above it. Maybe help out somewhere and prove the worth of her group to some people who are in need. Desperate people are less likely to say no to mage help. Then when the templars do show up, you got a community vouching for you. Maybe it doesn't work out but at least try that before carting your whole band off to Tevinter where slavery is still legal and mages are locked in constant power struggles (sure Fiona knows enough about Tevinter to know that given her amazing background).

They did try that. Mages aren't welcome in little villages in southern Thedas- the Chantry already spoiled that ground long ago. Living like animals in the wild, constantly on the run, until you're picked off one by one- that's not much of a plan, either.

[Sports72Xtrm]

At the end of the day, we are all just gamers metagaming and playing a protagonist who's narrative is railroaded to success. We can sit in judgement all we want but if we were in their shoes, who knows what we'd do. In the game, every significant faction in Thedas succumbed to some form of idiocy.

[EmissaryofLies]

She is what they hate most; a mage who wants freedom who so happens to have pointed ears.

 

It also helps that she was written to have the reasoning levels of a three year old, thank you Bioware!

[King Dragonlord]

What's the trope term for taking forum ranting at face value and operating as if it's true?

Fiona has weaknesses and foibles from the beginning- most of what this very topic has been about. How can she simultaneously be perfect darling and the worst mage leader ever?

The removal of the Calling is obviously a plot point they're exploring further. It wasn't just for Fiona. We don't yet know how she lost it, but it wasn't necessary for her story, as best I can tell. She'd still be alive as a Warden. So all of that "she isn't tainted, Mary Sueeee" is just irrelevant. All that aspect of Fiona's story does is establish that it's possible.
 
They did try that. Mages aren't welcome in little villages in southern Thedas- the Chantry already spoiled that ground long ago. Living like animals in the wild, constantly on the run, until you're picked off one by one- that's not much of a plan, either.

It matched up well enough with the clues we got in the game, and as I said, Sues in professional fiction aren't as perfect. The authors are more careful about them. 

 

But the flaws I've seen listed are mostly of two kinds. 1) The things she does in the game. Which may have been an attempt at apology to the fans by way of having her do stupid things so you could hate/kill the Sue and 2) Things I could easily see falling into the author's blind spot under Protagonist Centered Morality (since you mention tropes) which means the author might not have intended them as flaws (a common trap when writing Sues and one of the things fans find so infuriating) the question is whether the work itself painted Fiona's decisions and attitudes in Calling as wrong or not. If not, then that can justify a lot of reader aggravation.

[Addai]

You simply asserting she's a Mary Sue doesn't make it so.

Her flaws were apparent in The Calling, which you might know if you'd read it- I'm not sure why you're insisting on the quality of the writing when you haven't. She's impulsive, strong willed, makes snap judgments about people, and is more of an action person than a thinker/ reflector. She's too proud to accept a position as king's mistress so she gives up her child and justifies it as what's best for him (debatable, of course- she does have a point). These flaws all have natural outworking in later events.

[King Dragonlord]

You simply asserting she's a Mary Sue doesn't make it so.

Her flaws were apparent in The Calling, which you might know if you'd read it- I'm not sure why you're insisting on the quality of the writing when you haven't. She's impulsive, strong willed, makes snap judgments about people, and is more of an action person than a thinker/ reflector. She's too proud to accept a position as king's mistress so she gives up her child and justifies it as what's best for him (debatable, of course- she does have a point). These flaws all have natural outworking in later events.

'Impulsive strong willed and makes snap judgments' yep, if you can't make your Sue clumsy, then these are the flaws you give her (and obviously she can't be Clumsy if she's a Grey Warden/Grand Enchanter/Elf.

 

And "debatable, she does have a point" is another red flag. It sounds like the story isn't treating her flaws as flaws and that would be important. If the flaws are only apparent to the reader, and not the writer, that's another checkbox on the Sue list.  

[Dermain]

'Impulsive strong willed and makes snap judgments' yep, if you can't make your Sue clumsy, then these are the flaws you give her (and obviously she can't be Clumsy if she's a Grey Warden/Grand Enchanter/Elf.

 

And "debatable, she does have a point" is another red flag. It sounds like the story isn't treating her flaws as flaws and that would be important. If the flaws are only apparent to the reader, and not the writer, that's another checkbox on the Sue list.  

 

What happens if the writer was aware of the flaws when s/he wrote them?

[ttestagr]

"Dude"?

You're trying to start an argument about something that wasn't in my post. I was simply continuing the thread of "Fiona's decision is a betrayal of the actions taken for the benefit of herself and her followers by the Fereldan government"; if that betrayal was caused by magical interference and a demon as you say, then it was still a betrayal. Just one with, supposedly, extenuating circumstances.

But time travel got Alexius to Redcliffe before the Inquisition; it did not make Fiona sign herself and her followers into servitude. That is not an out of character decision for Fiona, but it is a stupid one - and "stupid" is well within her wheelhouse, as Asunder makes fairly clear. Varric, for one, seems to think that Fiona and the other mages are prone to making bad decisions (which is, y'know, the opposite of OOC), and that the agreement with Alexius was one such. The Inquisitor can also point out how dumb it was, both during the Redcliffe confrontations and afterward; the second time, Fiona will continue to defend it as a good idea, along with the entire revolt, because of course she does. Fear demon or no fear demon, she's still a doofus.

Which makes me think that those extenuating circumstances you claim aren't all that extenuating after all.

Either way, though, Fiona's decision was an outright betrayal of the Fereldan monarch and the arl of Redcliffe. IIRC, in the confrontation at Redcliffe, she doesn't even try to argue otherwise, centering her appeal instead on her followers' personal plight and need for shelter. One would imagine that if Fiona herself was unwilling to contest a point, her Internet followers surely ought to be as well.

 

If you want to take part in adult conversations, you'll need a thicker skin if someone calling you dude is of note.

 

And your argument is about how Fiona is terrible because of how she repaid Ferelden's offer of sanctuary.  And no, if her mind is being whammied then her actions would not be betrayal.  What is more, we know mind control is going on there considering the woman shows up as an enemy boss for no reason in the Haven quest.

 

And Asunder makes no such thing clear.  Fiona was elected to her position on that specific platform, and the treaty was broken by the Seekers and Templars when they dissolved the College of Enchanters.  Its funny how you bring up Varric, but the actual mages under her note that they can't believe she's doing this considering how she's very specifically given the Circle the opportunity to vote on matters no matter what.  Even when she has legal and moral justification to just screw it and have the libertarians force everyone their way.

 

What is more, you obviously have issues understanding the language of the source material since Fiona never defends the deal as a good idea.  She says it was the only option, despite you know, us having met her earlier before she got whammied and she was no where near such an opinion.  Its clear as day that the Tevinter usurper there magically screwed with her head.  Plus again, her appearance attacking Haven when the Circle has no reason for that.

[TK514]

There is zero evidence of present day mind control in the quest or in her actions.  That's baseless headcanon on your part.  They join Corypheus' army and attack Haven for the exact same reason they join the Inquisition, namely it is the price of their freedom.

[renfrees]

Have you people even talked with her at Skyhold? She explains how they came into Alexius' servitude and there's no single mention of mind-control. It would be so easy for her to say - "Oh, I was enthralled and bear no responsibility for that foul alliance, lay all blame on the Vints", but she doesn't. Because it was her conscious, even if desperate, choice.

[LOLandStuff]

Makes you wonder how she managed to become First Enchanter what with her making dumb decisions.

I mean, really...When has it ever been a good idea to trust a tevinter.

Everyone knows Tevinter is waring with the qunari. You'd only be trading your awful oppressive tower to become cannon fodder.

It's not like she's 5 years old to believe everything that comes out of Alexius' mouth.

 

Get in the van. I have candies.

[Ranadiel Marius]

Worst thing about her in DAI IMO is that once Darth Vader adjusts their deal, she doesn't try and back out despite having a much better option available. She just shuts up and slinks away. She clearly has no idea what she is doing or how to do best for her people.

[LOLandStuff]

Worst thing about her in DAI IMO is that once Darth Vader adjusts their deal, she doesn't try and back out despite having a much better option available. She just shuts up and slinks away. She clearly has no idea what she is doing or how to do best for her people.

 

Guess all that built up rebellion worn out of her since she left the Circle.

[Bigdoser]

Guess all that built up rebellion worn out of her since she left the Circle.

She kinda does state that and the fact she says that they are losing actually and then what happened at the conclave put her in a state of desperation and despair. I expect her contacting you in Val before the whole time thing was an act of desperation as well. 

 

After the time magic Alexius got to her. 

[RedWulfi]

"Besides the fact that she's a complete and utter ******, no.. I dont like her at all."

~ Alistair

[Ranadiel Marius]

She kinda does state that and the fact she says that they are losing actually and then what happened at the conclave put her in a state of desperation and despair. I expect her contacting you in Val before the whole time thing was an act of desperation as well.

After the time magic Alexius got to her.

And time magic is stopping her from backing out of a bad deal after the terms are changed on her? O.o

[Sports72Xtrm]

And time magic is stopping her from backing out of a bad deal after the terms are changed on her? O.o

Backing out of the deal means they have to fight the Venatori off. Even should they succeed, Ferelden thinks they're complicit with taking over Redcliffe and the templars still hunt them. Best case scenario is what, do the right thing but still be stranded in the south where everyone hates their guts and want to lynch them?

[o Ventus]

Because if a character does anything that someone doesn't like, it means they are awful and horrible and a Mary Sue.

[Addai]

'Impulsive strong willed and makes snap judgments' yep, if you can't make your Sue clumsy, then these are the flaws you give her (and obviously she can't be Clumsy if she's a Grey Warden/Grand Enchanter/Elf.
 
And "debatable, she does have a point" is another red flag. It sounds like the story isn't treating her flaws as flaws and that would be important. If the flaws are only apparent to the reader, and not the writer, that's another checkbox on the Sue list.

Alright, I'm going to conclude that you're just using that term because you're attached to it for some reason, and not out of any correlation to reality.

[Ranadiel Marius]

Backing out of the deal means they have to fight the Venatori off. Even should they succeed, Ferelden thinks they're complicit with taking over Redcliffe and the templars still hunt them. Best case scenario is what, do the right thing but still be stranded in the south where everyone hates their guts and want to lynch them?

I do not recall a massive Venatori presence in Redcliffe when I met with Fiona , so I don't see why she couldn't just lead her people out of Redcliffe with the Inquisition supporting. If the Venatori did decide to attack, it is at least a better chance of survival then ten years on the front lines against Qunari.

As for Fereldan thinking they were complicit...they were, so well she should have considered burning that bridge before. The Inquisition was however expressing an interest in taking them in, so it wasn't like her choices were death on the frontlines or wander the wilderness aimlessly.

[Akkos]

Fiona is the weakest leader I've ever met. She easily fall down so low to a stupid magister....  I was happy to kill her in haven.

[Bigdoser]

Fiona is the weakest leader I've ever met. She easily fall down so low to a stupid magister....  I was happy to kill her in haven.

Considering the higher ranking templars sold out all their soldiers for more power and red lyrium turning them into drug crazed monsters? The leader ship for both sides are guilty for silly decisions. 

[Ryzaki]

I no longer have any issues with her

 

Just gut her at Haven and call it a day

[Akkos]

Considering the higher ranking templars sold out all their soldiers for more power and red lyrium turning them into drug crazed monsters? The leader ship for both sides are guilty for silly decisions. 

 

Not if i turn them into Seekers, under the command of my lovely Cassandra, my dear.