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[fraggle]

I try to do that too... but...

 

Eh, nevermind.

 

Come on, let it out

[Mineko]

I might be naive, but it didn't even cross my mind that Shepard was so devastated after Thessia because of Liara. For me, she's sad because she lost. And she's not used to it. She's mighty Shepard, savior of the universe, and getting her ass kicked by Kai Leng hurt more than she expected. It was a reminder that she's not perfect, she can be vulnerable, and there are chances that she won't succeed against the reapers this time.

[Han Shot First]

Shepard is devastated after Thessia not because he cares more about that planet than others, but because he has been defeated. It is probably the first defeat Shepard has suffered in his career. What's worse is that it is a defeat that at that moment seems to have doomed the entire galaxy to share the same fate as the Protheans. The war effort depended entirely on the Crucible and in the immediate aftermath of Thessia Cerberus appeared to have fatally sabotaged the project. The magnitude of that defeat couldn't be any greater.

 

The mission was never about the planet itself. The planet was always going to fall and Shepard and one Alliance frigate were never going to change that. It was entirely about completing the Crucible.

 

In those circumstances it makes sense for Shepard to be short-tempered or distraught. Having the character be an unflappable bad@ss that would be completely unphased by failing in a mission that potentially results in the war being lost, would not be very realistic.

[Vazgen]

I'll also add that Thessia comes right after series of victories over the Reapers. Shepard secures krogan and geth/quarian aid, killing two Reapers in the process (loading screen guards mention this). He's one step away from finishing the war, the Crucible is within reach - "we get to that temple and the Reapers are history". And then comes the defeat and situation turns from hopeful to almost hopeless in a matter of minutes. 

Plus, this is the second time he witnesses homeworld invasion first-hand. Thessia reminds him of Earth.

 

P.S. About the dreams, I think the child symbolizes all the lives lost to the Reapers. All those Shepard wasn't able to save. 

[Quarian Master Race]

I'm not asking to be an unflappable badass. It's the auto-bitchiness on Joker (who has plenty of his own tragedies... one including his own sister killed by an Asari....which we can never tell him about), the pouty face with the Asari councilor, and the "comfort" scenes for Liara. 

 

This is all for the benefit of infantile Liara fans. Not for people who can't accept defeat. They eat this **** up, while everyone else has to sit through it.

 

It would've been even more ridiculous in a previous iteration though. Liara was supposed to kill herself if you didn't go to her cabin. lol

agree 100%

I'm not so much annoyed at Shep getting upset at defeat. It's the fact that there is nothing like this in previous events. You can let the hanar homeworld fall, then go down a couple floors to chat with Thane without even a mention that his species is probably going to be extinct as soon as he dies. Legion/Tali dies along with their whole race due to your action/ inaction? Lol, let's play cards in the lounge afterword. Forced to shoot your old buddy Wrex and watch as you lose one of the biggest assets to your war effort due to your shortsightedness, and then living with the fact that you probably just doomed yet another race to extinction, this time for nothing? Meh.

You can personally be forced to kill several of your other companions or previous companions, even going so far as to be personally responsible for decisions resulting in genociding of their races out of existence, yet Shep feels not even a little guilt at any of these.

No, lets cry, pout and blame ourselves only over the fact that the race of blue spacebabes planet is now being attacked (not genocided out of existence or anything, though) and they have to fight just like everyone else has already been doing for weeks/ months, not because of anything Shep did, but because their government couldn't be bothered to share information sooner.

What makes this situation special over anything we haven't already experienced before to warrant Shep suddenly becoming an infant over the other things mentioned?

[Han Shot First]

The auto snark with Joker probably shouldn't have been there. But on the flipside there shouldn't have been a "Ha Ha..great one!" response either, considering defeat was still staring Shepard in the face at that point. That would be infantile, not to mention an unrealistic response given the gravity of the situation Shepard and the galaxy at large was in. The options should have been the angry one you get by default on autodialogue and a more neutral response where Shepard just says something along the lines of, "I appreciate what you are tying to do Joker, but not now." Both would also still set up Joker's response about Shepard being more stressed than during the Skyllian Blitz or Torfan or whatever.

 

The dialogue options with the Councilor should have been the "We lost. We might be f--ked. I'm sorry" option that you get, and an angrier "This is the Council's fault. You've been stonewalling me since day 1 and now you didn't tell me about the Prothean VI until it was too late" response. But I think Bioware had the right idea in giving Shepard a negative emotional response. The players know Shepard is going to win, but Shepard shouldn't. Right then it looks like humanity and the rest of the space faring species of the galaxy are headed for extinction. 

 

 

 

What makes this situation special over anything we haven't already experienced before to warrant Shep suddenly becoming an infant over the other things mentioned?

 

It was about the Crucible, not the planet. Shepard was never going to save Thessia, because he was only one man in command of one frigate against probably hundreds of Reapers that were attacking Thessia. That was never the mission. The mission was solely about recovering something that was crucial to finishing the Crucible project, which also happened to be the only means the galaxy had to defeat the Reapers.

 

Thessia is different solely because of its link to the Crucible. Earth and Khaje falling didn't potentially represent a decisive turning point in the war in the same way that Cerberus and Kai Leng beating Shepard to the Prothean VI did. If they can't finish the Crucible they are toast.

 

...and Shepard mopes about Earth far more than any other planet, sometimes even when its not appropriate. (Menae/Palaven)

[Han Shot First]

This is reasonable.

 

I just think they needed to rein some of it in. I don't even dislike Liara btw. It's just impossible to make her a friend-among-many-friends. It's all or nothing with that character. 

 

I think the next ME games need to do something similar to the DA games, with squadmates having some sort of approval/disapproval rating based on your actions and dialogue. 

[Pasquale1234]

I'm not asking to be an unflappable badass. It's the auto-bitchiness on Joker (who has plenty of his own tragedies... one including his own sister killed by an Asari....which we can never tell him about), the pouty face with the Asari councilor, and the "comfort" scenes for Liara. 
 
This is all for the benefit of infantile Liara fans. Not for people who can't accept defeat. They eat this **** up, while everyone else has to sit through it.

Did you really just say that?

Wow.

I think the writers wanted to show the raw emotion of someone seeing their homeworld decimated by an invincible, unstoppable force - and Liara drew the short straw.

Given the extent of the whining over Shepard showing any emotion after losing the VI to Kai Leng - not to mention the dreams about the kid - I can't imagine the outcry if Shepard had shown much emotion seeing the devastation on Earth. Most of the other Alliance teammates were battle-hardened soldiers focused on resisting. Traynor makes a comment about her reaction to the attack on Earth, basically along the lines of there being no point in crying about it - and she really didn't witness it firsthand, being safely aboard the Normandy when the Reapers arrived. We never were on Palaven proper, and the militaristic Turians would never put that kind of emotion on display. Also, things like that are better served later in a narrative, after the audience has had an opportunity to get to know the affected characters. Narratively speaking, Thessia kicked off the Rising Action toward the Climax.

Liara actually had multiple issues coming to a head at that time:
-- Disappointment / disbelief that her government would hide such a thing.
-- The pain of learning that her mother was in on that little secret and hid it from her.
-- If Javik is along, she is struggling with the new knowledge that everything she thought she knew about her people's history and evolution is not what they believed it to be.
-- And - oh, yeah, seeing all the death and destruction while her homeworld falls to the reapers.

So - although this "infantile" Liara fan doesn't care much for the overwrought emotional display, I think it's pretty realistic given the circumstances.

[fraggle]

You can personally be forced to kill several of your other companions or previous companions, even going so far as to be personally responsible for decisions resulting in genociding of their races out of existence, yet Shep feels not even a little guilt at any of these.

 

What about the nightmares then? The voices of dead companions haunt Shepard there, so that shows me he feels guilt.

[Quarian Master Race]

It was about the Crucible, not the planet. Shepard was never going to save Thessia, because he was only one man in command of one frigate against probably hundreds of Reapers that were attacking Thessia. That was never the mission. The mission was solely about recovering something that was crucial to finishing the Crucible project, which also happened to be the only means the galaxy had to defeat the Reapers.

 

Thessia is different solely because of its link to the Crucible. Earth and Khaje falling didn't potentially represent a decisive turning point in the war in the same way that Cerberus and Kai Leng beating Shepard to the Prothean VI did. If they can't finish the Crucible they are toast.

 

...and Shepard mopes about Earth far more than any other planet, sometimes even when its not appropriate. (Menae/Palaven)

Hmm, I remember "Thessia's lost, and that's on me" and none of the dialouge between Joker/Shep/Liara/Garrus/Tali/Javik really having anything to do with the Crucible apart from a cursory mention of it during the conversation with the councilor. Acting like a baby when you were just told immediately that you already have a lead on where Leng went anyway would still be a silly example of OOC defeatism even if they actually gave some lip service to that being the reason for all the pouting. I don't remember Shep crying when Saren made it to the Conduit first, for example. But no, I'm so sad about the asari and Thessia because they're so goddamn special for some reason.

Shepard moping about their own planet is much easier to rationalize, not that I agree with that either. S/He doesn't blame themself at its loss, either, as far as I remember.

[aoibhealfae]

I didn't say you were infantile. You'll have to decide that on your own.

 

No, there's a specific kind of fan that indulges in this stuff, and doesn't care how other people experience the game. They love the "pseudo-Canon" thing, no matter how much it steps on people's toes. It's like they want a JRPG with Cloud and Tifa.

lol, this made me remember the time when my Cloud went on a date with Barrett

[Quarian Master Race]

What about the nightmares then? The voices of dead companions haunt Shepard there, so that shows me he feels guilt.

Hardly given anywhere near as much attention, and you can choose to not even talk to anyone (Liara) about those, not go pouting all over the ship and shouting everyone down or providing platitudes to a sad (but not dead or anything) companion because you personally let kajhe/geth/quarians/ the krogan and your friends die.

it's not just the handwaving of those things, its the fact that Thessia isn't even Shepards fault, unlike all the others mentioned. Why does it get the emphasis? Whatever, I'll just keep avoiding everyone like the plauge after that and making a sandwich during the terrible cutscenes.

[themikefest]

Its ok for me to yell at Joker for his stupid comment, but I can't yell at T'soni for instigating an argument with Javik about what happened on Thessia? Maybe she needs to pull those tentacles out her fifth point of contact and realize that her pathetic government messed up big time and blame them. She should feel lucky that the assassin was an idiot otherwise if he really was assassin he would've stabbed her instead of sticking the sword in the ground and throwing her across the screen. 

 

The whole mission was crap. I would've added at least 6 renegade interrupts during and after the mission with a couple of them leading to vicious reults

[Pasquale1234]

I didn't say you were infantile. You'll have to decide that on your own.
 
No, there's a specific kind of fan that indulges in this stuff, and doesn't care how other people experience the game. They love the "pseudo-Canon" thing, no matter how much it steps on people's toes. It's like they want a JRPG with Cloud and Tifa.

It sounded like an indictment of anyone who likes the character - or who enjoys that sort of content. I've always been pretty sympathetic to those who are frustrated at the way she is treated as the sort-of canon romance, and dislike it myself.

Of course, if I had any interest in JRPG's with Cloud and Tifa, I guess I'd be playing them.

[Han Shot First]

Hmm, I remember "Thessia's lost, and that's on me" and none of the dialouge between Joker/Shep/Liara/Garrus/Tali/Javik really having anything to do with the Crucible apart from a cursory mention of it during the conversation with the councilor. Acting like a baby when you were just told immediately that you already have a lead on where Leng went anyway would still be a silly example of OOC defeatism even if they actually gave some lip service to that being the reason for all the pouting. I don't remember Shep crying when Saren made it to the Conduit first, for example. But no, I'm so sad about the asari and Thessia because they're so goddamn special for some reason.

Shepard moping about their own planet is much easier to rationalize, not that I agree with that either. S/He doesn't blame themself at its loss, either, as far as I remember.

 

You're not remembering that entirely correctly. In Shepard's after action report to the Asari Councilor he says, "Councilor, I wish the news was better. We didn't get the information...Cerberus was there...We were defeated. We don't know how to finish the Crucible. I'm sorry." It is entirely about the Crucible and not the planet. Afterwards with Liara he says "Its my job to be prepared, no matter what. And now Thessia is lost, as is the data on the Catalyst." I could see how the first half of that sentence could be mistaken as Shepard claiming responsibility for Thessia falling, but that wasn't my take. The important point is what follows about the Catalyst. The preceding conversation with the Asari Councilor and the mission on Thessia itself (which was solely geared towards recovering data on the Catalyst) also supports that. When Shepard encounters the Asari commandos on Thessia he doesn't tell them he's there to save the planet (because he isn't and can't) he tells them that if they hold it might allow him to recover an artifact crucial to defeating the Reapers.

[Pasquale1234]

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I got carried away in the rant. There's quite a few Liara fans I like here.
 
The biggest indictment might just be against the writers themselves. Unless they're doing it for those fans' sake. Not sure what came first really. The chicken or the egg.

Yeah, it's funny - we see a lot of complaints when an MC shows emotion, and others when the MC didn't show the emotion the player might have liked to see.

When I started playing ME1, I pretty much accepted the fact that Shepard is Bioware's character, not mine, and certainly not my avatar. When the only choices you're given are some vague paraphrases, your control of the character is extremely limited. In a cinematic, cut-scene heavy game like the ME series, the character will frequently say and do things you might not have expected.

[themikefest]

You're not remembering that entirely correctly. In Shepard's after action report to the Asari Councilor he says, "Councilor, I wish the news was better. We didn't get the information...Cerberus was there...We were defeated. We don't know how to finish the Crucible.

Too bad Shepard couldn't say to her, "If you mentioned this earlier, I might have the information that is needed instead of Cerberus taking it."
 

I'm sorry."

That was crap. Its the councilor who should be saying I'm sorry my government didn't reveal the artifact earlier."

[Pasquale1234]

It didn't annoy me as much in the other games. I tolerated it. I guess I hit my threshold in this game. Although I already started seeing it unraveling when LotSB came out. That was more cinematic than the main game. The wife/husband like banter in the skycar, the "spooning" of Liara when the other squadmate gets knocked out by the Shadow Broker, etc..

Yes, I appreciate the frustration of non-Liara-mancers with those scenes, and have acknowledged that before.

To be fair, Liara is not the only close relationship the player is sort of pushed into. Bioware also wrote Shepard as having Anderson for a mentor / father figure, much to the chagrin of some players. A spacer Shepard has a relationship with Mom defined by Bioware. Etc.