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[sylvanaerie]

That's probably a big factor. In the Leliana chantry side mission I took the third choice, something like its not worth it, and Lel slit the sister's throat regardless. Back at skyhold we had a conversation where she basically said she accepts her purpose is to kill. Chick was cold as ice. And she still became Divine in the end. And according to the epilogue the halls of the chantry ran thick with blood lol. It would cool if she was like that because I took the hardened choice in the keep.

Yea, this is what I got too, Leliana became Divine and I was pretty okay with it.  There was bloodshed (because she was pretty ruthless on my playthrough) but her position as Divine also meant a lot of progressive change that was needed.

 

I was unaware that there was other options in the game.  Going to have to see what comes out of several playthroughs, though I am unsure I can ever support anyone but Celene for the throne of Orlais.  She's a ruthless ****** no less than the other 2 but at least she strives for peace.

[holdenagincourt]

The Leliana/Vivienne dichotomy is easy enough to see in the game's choices because they represent two polar opposites.

 

What I don't get is how to maneuver Cassandra to the Sunburst Throne. This was the outcome I favored in conversations with her and was very consistent throughout the game in my evinced opinion that the Chantry, Seekers, and Templars could be a positive force but needed reform. I really feel Cassandra was my choice and yet didn't get her in the end. Does settling the Orlesian throne exclusively for Gaspard favor Cassandra? It seems that Celene is a Vivienne-aligned choice and that, more importantly, forcing the competing factions to work together simply gets collapsed into a "Celene wins" box for the choice of Divine.

[littlebrightpanda]

I will report back in my current playthrough, because I think I will either get Cass or Viv on the throne. I allied with the templars, Celene rules with Briala exiled and Gaspard dead, and supported Viv on the war table. 

 

Lelina is scaring the **** out of me, so I don't really want her as the divine. I am however not going to oppose her if she will become it. Too scared of her...

[Adanu]

Leliana as Divine is the only real change. The other two are status quo.

 

Fact is, Cassandra and Vivienne are another mage rebellion waiting to happen.

[PlasmaPunch]

Leliana as Divine is the only real change. The other two are status quo.

 

Fact is, Cassandra and Vivienne are another mage rebellion waiting to happen.

Vivienne is another mage rebellion within like 10yrs of her being Divine. Cassandra has maybe 20-30. Leliana will either ignite the world in flames or bring peace and prosperity to all. Sadly there's no good in-between.

 

There's no option for what Cullen preaches, and it's probably the most likely to succeed at a good enough rate that it'd be a safe choice (probably done purposely by Bioware to be fair, evidence points towards the next game / DLC / Expansion are likely to be Tevinter/Qun/Nevarra/Chantry thrown into chaos).

 

Cullen proposes (from what I understood)  Mages are given freedom to travel once they graduate from the Circle, and templars are made into police essentially, with Templars stationed across Thedas as protectors of the innocent, rogue mage slayers, and demon hunters. I don't remember what he said about th Chantry itself though. 

[Bigdoser]

Vivienne is another mage rebellion within like 10yrs of her being Divine. Cassandra has maybe 20-30. Leliana will either ignite the world in flames or bring peace and prosperity to all. Sadly there's no good in-between.

 

There's no option for what Cullen preaches, and it's probably the most likely to succeed at a good enough rate that it'd be a safe choice (probably done purposely by Bioware to be fair, evidence points towards the next game / DLC / Expansion are likely to be Tevinter/Qun/Nevarra/Chantry thrown into chaos).

 

Cullen proposes (from what I understood)  Mages are given freedom to travel once they graduate from the Circle, and templars are made into police essentially, with Templars stationed across Thedas as protectors of the innocent, rogue mage slayers, and demon hunters. I don't remember what he said about th Chantry itself though. 

Cullen for divine please oh wait this is the south. 

[Ashagar]

Vivienne is another mage rebellion within like 10yrs of her being Divine. Cassandra has maybe 20-30. Leliana will either ignite the world in flames or bring peace and prosperity to all. Sadly there's no good in-between.

 

There's no option for what Cullen preaches, and it's probably the most likely to succeed at a good enough rate that it'd be a safe choice (probably done purposely by Bioware to be fair, evidence points towards the next game / DLC / Expansion are likely to be Tevinter/Qun/Nevarra/Chantry thrown into chaos).

 

Cullen proposes (from what I understood)  Mages are given freedom to travel once they graduate from the Circle, and templars are made into police essentially, with Templars stationed across Thedas as protectors of the innocent, rogue mage slayers, and demon hunters. I don't remember what he said about th Chantry itself though. 

 

I'd disagree, Cassandra from what I seen in my playthough will leave the chantry at least a few centuries or more before there is another rebellion or more reform is needed. Unlike Vivienne she is a reformer just not a radical one like Leilana but she is one who believes in learning from the past and doesn't tolerate corruption. 

 

Besides anyone who makes trouble(likely people who liked the old corrupt ways) will have her going Warrior Divine on them assuming the inquisition doesn't get them before that point and I'd place odds on her winning.
 

[StarcloudSWG]

Historically speaking, ruthless Leliana is probably the best choice for reforming the southern Chantry. She doesn't actually disband the Templars, but she does abolish the Circles and let the mages form their own College.

 

For this to work, and for these reforms to take hold, a great deal needs to be changed quickly and the Chantry can't be allowed to splinter into a dozen different 'True Chantry' Andrastean sects.

 

Though it is very painful to see Leliana go from the relatively sweet, caring woman she was in my DA O game to the ruthless pragmatist in DA I. Especially since you get exactly *two* conversations that decide what part of her personality will express itself the most. And one of them is before you even get to know her well enough to be able to suggest a course of action.

 

Particularly since someone forgot that the choice to let Marjolaine go or to kill her was independent of whether Leliana became hardened in DA O, something that happened in dialog back at the camp. So the Keep seems to have effed that up.

[TheGusWho]

I'm puzzled why anyone would have problems with Vivienne becoming the Divine. Is it because she's pro-circle, or what?

[Fardreamer]

On my evil mage playthrough, I'm hoping Vivienne becomes divine. It's such sacrilege to the Chantry that it's too good to pass up. On my good mage, I'll put Lelianna in charge.

Btw, thank you to BW for including this choice and making it have several variables. Makes replaying much more interesting.

[Danadenassis]

Strangely do one of my characters really like Vivienne, while another just wants to ignore her, or even send her away. Well crafted dialogues that shapes my impression and perspective of the character.

 

Just like my female human mage having a crush on Solas and my female elf being so soft on Cassandra, despite what *I* think about them. Quite exciting really and not always compatible...like in the world outside

[pengwin21]

I'll explain why I have a problem with her.

 

 

Vivienne supports the Chantry as it is. Templars as they are. Circles as they are. She thinks that mages should never be free and able to govern themselves because Magic is dangerous(understandable).

 

However she says "Life in the Circle isn't that bad, I don't know what all the fuss is about" or something along those lines. When she lives in a Mansion, Sleeping with a Duke, Has everything she wants. Able to use magic on Nobles and even kill them with immunity. She knows the ENTIRE Imperial Court by First name basis. She does not have to deal with Templar's standing over her questioning her every move. She is able to leave and live outside the Circle anytime she wants.

 

Yet she somehow thinks that all Mages do not deserve the same treatment she gets earned or not.

 

To me she is just a venom-toothed viper that will use and step on anyone to get what she truly wants, which is to be Divine.

 

Vivienne explains that all mages can live outside the Circle- with the permission of the First Enchanter. All Circles are different, but she says that Kirkwall was an extreme case that was not representative.

[Blue_Shayde]

As a DA player since the first game who has played all my serious playthroughs as a mage and elf. (or just mage in da2's case)...

 

Honestly, what I've always believed in aligns very much with Cassandra's point of view. Even in DAO, I played an elf mage who supported the circle, but felt things needed to change. I still do. The circles could be a home, a sanctuary and learning place for mages. But keeping them as prisoners, denying them contact with their families, treating them like monsters...those were things that had to change.

 

Out of the two forces, I feel its the Templars who have proven themselves the most dangerous and corruptible. Maybe they don't show that corruption on the outside like mages do, but that's what makes them more dangerous. (not that I'm saying both sides are right or wrong entirely) Still, I understand how many mages turned to the most desperate of choices in the situation they were trapped in.

 

So I agree with Cass that the circles should be governed by the mages themselves, templars should go back to properly protecting people (including mages) and not policing them, and the chantry itself reformed.

 

In the end, if I can get Leliana or Cassandra as divine, I'll be happy.

[beccatoria]

Vivienne explains that all mages can live outside the Circle- with the permission of the First Enchanter. All Circles are different, but she says that Kirkwall was an extreme case that was not representative.

 

 

But can we trust what she says?  Bioware games don't usually actively deceive you through the NPCs but they do often promote perspectives that aren't representative of the entire truth.  Vivienne's account conflicts with numerous others heard over the course of three games: which to we consider more valid?  

 

 

Vivienne is clearly enormously invested in maintaining her power base and social status.  She is also a consummate politician and player of the Game.  I don't doubt what she says has some truth.  We know that Kirkwall's Circle was one of the most repressive.  But this doesn't change the fact that her experience, based on everything else we've ever seen of the world and its treatment of mages, is extreme in the opposite direction.  That her Circle apparently hob-nobbed with the nobility and encouraged its members to take positions as exotic members of the court doesn't mean that's normal.  

 

In DA:O it's stated at the Circle in Lake Calenhad that it's extremely rare for the First Enchanter to give permission to a mage to live or even travel outside the tower.  Wynne wasn't allowed to raise her own child.  Freedom of communication with one's family - freedom to have a family - were both severely curtailed at a Circle that has not been waved about as "the one bad apple that spoils the bunch".  And it certainly didn't seem like living outside the Circle with the First Enchanter's permission was as trivial to achieve as Vivienne makes it sound.  

 

Even if Kirkwall's circumstances were extreme, Divine Justinia ordered an investigation into it and did nothing.  Whatever the reasons for that decision, and however complicated they may have been, it makes it hard to argue that there's nothing wrong with the current system when rampant abuses can be investigated by the highest moral authority and excuses found to leave them as it is.  There but for the grace of Andraste go I, and all that...

 

I actually don't hate Vivienne at all.  I don't personally like or agree with her, but I find her fascinating, and from what I can tell, if she is made Divine even she would institute changes designed to curtail abuses of Templar power and to provide Mages within the Circles with more self-governance.  

 

But her off-hand dismissal of most of the rest of the lore regarding the freedoms actually available to Mages is deeply suspect and I don't think we can use that one line to promote an unexamined assumption that Mages can all go live wherever they want with a permission slip.  

[Nashina]

I placed Vivienne as the divine as i felt she would of been better able to influence changes, the chantry needed to change and she was the most shrewed and cunning and able to pull it off.

It also pleased me to no end when i spoke to iron bull about it he said the ben hassarath were concerned about her as chantry leader.

[eternalshiva]

Cassandra has the same opinion as Cullen on what the Mages and Templars roles are, I got Cassandra as Divine in my playthrough and I was fine with it, she reforms the Seekers and Templars into the same order or something and they work to protect mages and the innocent, they have way more freedom than before. I chose the templar route and the Templars follow Cullen's decision to stop Lyrium and they join the Seekers.

 

Under Cassandra, the Seekers are reformed to their original purpose (if you tell her to keep doing Seeker things after her personal quest, I think) I didn't support her to be the divine, I wanted Viv but it turned out better than I expected.

[hong]

But can we trust what she says?  Bioware games don't usually actively deceive you through the NPCs but they do often promote perspectives that aren't representative of the entire truth.  Vivienne's account conflicts with numerous others heard over the course of three games: which to we consider more valid?

The point is that she offers more information about the state of affairs, particularly outside Ferelden (which appears to be much more conservative on many things than Orlais). That information is different, which makes it more interesting than something that just confirms prior assumptions.

Vivienne is clearly enormously invested in maintaining her power base and social status.

Vivienne is actually a means to inject some spice into proceedings and make matters less morally clear-cut than they used to be. It's quite clear that Bioware likes ambiguity and playing with people's expectations, so as to make interesting conflicts. Every game in one of their franchises upends the consensus of the fanbase in some way. This is no different.

But her off-hand dismissal of most of the rest of the lore

The only lore she dismisses is that which fans have extrapolated from the source material.

[Kel Eligor]

I also got a Vivienne end-game state, even though I openly supported Cassandra in all my conversations with NPCs, reinstated the Circle and said the Chantry was failing whenever I was confronted with the topic. When Vivienne asked me who I supported, I inquired whether Lelianna would be good (that choice is a bit misleading, as it seems more like I'm asking her opinion, rather than making a statement of supporting Lelianna) but never said I'd support the First Enchanter as divine. Lelianna was hardened, and Celene remained on the throne.

 

Judging by how all the conversations I had revolved either around Lelianna or Cassandra as divine, Vivienne taking the reigns positively came out of the left field and made little sense in the context of my Inquisitor's story. 

[hong]

I also got a Vivienne end-game state, even though I openly supported Cassandra in all my conversations with NPCs, reinstated the Circle and said the Chantry was failing whenever I was confronted with the topic. When Vivienne asked me who I supported, I inquired whether Lelianna would be good (that choice is a bit misleading, as it seems more like I'm asking her opinion, rather than making a statement of supporting Lelianna) but never said I'd support the First Enchanter as divine. Lelianna was hardened, and Celene remained on the throne.
 
Judging by how all the conversations I had revolved either around Lelianna or Cassandra as divine, Vivienne taking the reigns positively came out of the left field and made little sense in the context of my Inquisitor's story.

Yeah, I got Viv too, and I wasn't expecting it. I suspect it's because I supported Celene, and my other choices weren't conclusively in favour of either Cass or Leli. Maybe also because I said that I'd set things back to the way they were, a few times too many.

(Hey, what better evidence could there be that I AM the herald of Andraste? A chance conversation with a third party has a direct influence on someone becoming elected Divine. Truly, the Maker moves in myserious ways.)

[LinksOcarina]

Just disliking the Chantry is neutral (depending on the context). Sentiments that suggest the Chantry needs to reform, or that it isn't doing its job, will push Leliana a bit closer towards being Divine. For her, however, the biggest influences by far are allying with the mages at the end of the Redcliffe plot and handing power to Briala at the end of the Wicked Eyes & Wicked Hearts plot.

 

Very clever stuff, I must say. Not pronounced and really can influence stuff in ways we don't know. I like that subtlety.

[azanimefan]

I believe one of the prerequisites for L becoming divine if you have to do the quest at Divine Justinias original Chantry. (spoilers) you need to convince her not to kill the traitorous sister in the chantry.

 

nope.  my lilly was a psycho... and ended up the divine.  she killed everyone.  even the ending said the "chantry was dyed red in the blood of her enemies" so she was basically a monster divine. 

 

That said she aligned closest to my inquisitor's preferences in a divine and the changes she brought to the chantry were the ones i would have perfered, so she was the perfect ending.  I am pretty sure, you get the divine who would do what you did.  (or closest to it)  So if you wanted to re-establish the circles, and favored the templars you get Viv, if you favored freeing the mages from the templar oversight, but still wanted to re-establish the circles, you get Cassy, and if you're out to free the mages from the circles completely you get Lilly.  

 

It has nothing to do with the character quests and how much you used or abused your companions.  it has to do with your choices toward the mage/templar issue.

[Zana]

You have a broken system.  You can either keep the system and make it run due to presence of a single individual (Vivienne).  You can refurbish the system and hope that it will not end up going the same path in a few hundred of years (Cassandra) or you can smash the system and hope there are enough pieces left that you can build the new one (Leliana).

 

Really none of these are perfect.  Ideally you would slowly dismantle the system while knowing what you are planning to rebuild it as.  I think this is what Justinia was trying to do.  Now this option is off the table.  Medium term, Cassandra is perfect.  Long term it will likely end up in the same state as now.  Leliana's ending is the wildcard.  She can finally fix a long standing issue if careful.  Or she can create second Tevinter a few decades down the road.

 

I do wish the Divine selection rules were a bit more transparent.  It is especially annoying with Leliana as she is not a companion and being a very reserved person (spymaster and all), there are only a few instances when she opens her heart to what she thinks should be done.  And some of those revelations come a bit late in the story.