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[Lucrece]

The Leliana I got is different. I prevented her from killing the traitor and using him for info instead. I prevented her from killing the sister and told her to stop torturing herself over Divine Justinia, and that she had exceeded Justinia.

 

She became a pretty cool person, still ruthless, but not so inclined to just use assassination as her first choice.

 

So she got elected Divine, the mages are free and running a successful college, the Chantry is open to all races and focused on charity; and when the Chantry had some sects rise out of her reforms, she convinced everyone to stick to unity with words, not bloodshed (though I don't begrudge her running some daggers through career politicians in the Chantry).

 

Pretty good outcome imo. My only other consideration was Cassandra, but I never saw Cassandra being happy running intrigues and political games instead of reforming her Seeker Order and being where she belongs, in the field of battle.

 

I love Vivienne for being sassy and savvy, but she'd make a terrible Divine. She strikes me as an extremely privileged person and kind of a classist snob, and I feared for Fiona and the rebel mages if Vivienne became Divine and got to lock them up in circles, in addition to completely neutering Fiona. Fiona may have been a fool in indenturing herself to a magister, but that was an act of desperation as templars and half of the mage circle (loyalists) were after them.

 

I'd rather keep Viv where she belongs, in the Orlesian court playing her games but not in a position where she can singlehandedly decide the fate of most mages. She's been in the verge of an Uncle Tom character for me, even though she's wise and surprisingly kind in her own ways. She's just not as selfless as Cassandra or Leliana and that imo disqualifies her as a Divine for me.

[InquisiTron]

There's no way to go after mages hardcore and try to eradicate/tranquil them all right? Even Cassandra's middle ground in the end? Even if you chose to grab the Templars, etc?

[errantknight]

I got Vivienne while hoping it would be Cassandra, yet not hoping so too, since my inquisitor was romancing her and really didn't want to lose her. I expect I was too waffle-y. Initially, I was 'oh, poor Thedas' but now I'm thinking that will be interesting, lol

 

I was particularly surprised since Vivienne thinks my inquisitor is a douche. I accidently didn't do her companion quest because I was thinking 'hmm, help dodgy mage with a secret mission gather ingredients...oh, hell no!'

[beccatoria]

The point is that she offers more information about the state of affairs, particularly outside Ferelden (which appears to be much more conservative on many things than Orlais). That information is different, which makes it more interesting than something that just confirms prior assumptions.


Vivienne is actually a means to inject some spice into proceedings and make matters less morally clear-cut than they used to be. It's quite clear that Bioware likes ambiguity and playing with people's expectations, so as to make interesting conflicts. Every game in one of their franchises upends the consensus of the fanbase in some way. This is no different.


The only lore she dismisses is that which fans have extrapolated from the source material.

 

I feel it's worth reiterating that I don't dislike the character and actually find her extremely interesting.  

 

However, your argument largely seems to consist of the idea that Bioware is actively attempting to change its stance on the nature of the Circles in order to inject ambiguity.  

 

I agree that Bioware likes to present ambiguous situations and conflicting opinions - that was a large part of my original point.  

 

There is, however, a big difference between going, "shoot, the only way we can make this situation more ambiguous is by actively changing what we said before and expecting people to believe the most recent source of information!" and going, "hey, let's present someone else with a valid, but different, experience."  

 

I think the former is poor writing and the latter is not.  

 

I also feel like your argument falls more in line with the idea that Bioware are using Vivienne to change canon?  (I disagree it's extrapolated information on the part of the fans.  Things like Wynne's situation with her child are explicitly stated in the text).  

 

As I said, I don't find Vivienne's account of her experience suspect, nor do I have a problem with the idea that for some Mages the Circles are a good solution.  I honestly don't have a problem with her perspective as one of a number that we can - and SHOULD - encounter during the game.  

 

What I have a problem with is giving Vivienne's account primacy and taking it as the most reliable source when we have numerous conflicting reports.  

 

 

I have a problem with going "Oh hey, Vivienne said everyone could live outside the Circle, it's no biggie, all the Circles that don't let you do that must be weird!"  When that actively goes against a lot of previous information.  It's selective in the same way ignoring her experience is selective.  

 

The only way that makes sense is if we take her views as an active attempt on Bioware's part to actively retcon (rather than expand on) previous information.  Which is worse writing than I expect of them.  

 

tl;dr I have no issue with Vivienne's perspective being true for certain people.  I have a problem with the idea that it renders previous (and current and future) conflicting opinions null and void because "ooooh, complexity!"  That's not actually complex, that's just...believing whatever you heard most recently.  

[lady8jane]

It seems that Leliana will more becoming Divine if you ally with mages and support Celene. 

 

I did both and still got Cassandra. But I also told Leliana outright that I don't want her to be Divine and encouraged Cassandra to become Divine.

[Daerog]

I supported Vivienne in my canon. I like the Chantry, and I see her and Cass as the best options.

Leliana is a bad option in my opinion.

Viv knows the Game, which helps maintain support from Orlais and also not be subjugated by Orlais. Cassandra would probably be too blunt. Also, Vivienne really does care, she does love, and she seems to be a devout Andrastian, as she cites the Chant to explain her disapproval of the rebels... and she's a Loyalist.

[azarhal]

 

Fact is, Cassandra and Vivienne are another mage rebellion waiting to happen.

 

My Cassandra's ending hushed Thedas in a new Golden Age. No mage rebellion in sight, in fact, they seems the most happy out of everyone considering the only problem she encountered early on was from conservators who decided her reforms went too far and wanted to go back to the old statu quo. That was dealt with peacefully too.

 

The price for this super happy ending for Thedas...is a sad and unhappy Cassandra. *sniff*

[Victoriaoke]

On my second playthrough I supported Templars, was pro-Chantry, supported Cassandra and still got Leliana as divine in the end (I didn't even do her personal mission or talk to her after Here Lies the Abyss). Celene was on the throne and leaned heavily on her alliance with the Inquisition, Gaspard was exiled and there was no mention of what happened to Briala.

[pengwin21]

But can we trust what she says?  Bioware games don't usually actively deceive you through the NPCs but they do often promote perspectives that aren't representative of the entire truth.  Vivienne's account conflicts with numerous others heard over the course of three games: which to we consider more valid?  

 

 

Vivienne is clearly enormously invested in maintaining her power base and social status.  She is also a consummate politician and player of the Game.  I don't doubt what she says has some truth.  We know that Kirkwall's Circle was one of the most repressive.  But this doesn't change the fact that her experience, based on everything else we've ever seen of the world and its treatment of mages, is extreme in the opposite direction.  That her Circle apparently hob-nobbed with the nobility and encouraged its members to take positions as exotic members of the court doesn't mean that's normal.  

 

In DA:O it's stated at the Circle in Lake Calenhad that it's extremely rare for the First Enchanter to give permission to a mage to live or even travel outside the tower.  Wynne wasn't allowed to raise her own child.  Freedom of communication with one's family - freedom to have a family - were both severely curtailed at a Circle that has not been waved about as "the one bad apple that spoils the bunch".  And it certainly didn't seem like living outside the Circle with the First Enchanter's permission was as trivial to achieve as Vivienne makes it sound.  

 

Even if Kirkwall's circumstances were extreme, Divine Justinia ordered an investigation into it and did nothing.  Whatever the reasons for that decision, and however complicated they may have been, it makes it hard to argue that there's nothing wrong with the current system when rampant abuses can be investigated by the highest moral authority and excuses found to leave them as it is.  There but for the grace of Andraste go I, and all that...

 

I actually don't hate Vivienne at all.  I don't personally like or agree with her, but I find her fascinating, and from what I can tell, if she is made Divine even she would institute changes designed to curtail abuses of Templar power and to provide Mages within the Circles with more self-governance.  

 

But her off-hand dismissal of most of the rest of the lore regarding the freedoms actually available to Mages is deeply suspect and I don't think we can use that one line to promote an unexamined assumption that Mages can all go live wherever they want with a permission slip.  

 

She might be painting the Circle in a positive light, but certain things about the Circle may have been painted in a more negative light than reality by people like Anders. In terms of family visitation for instance- Leandra visits Bethany, Eamon visits Connor, and Arianni visits Feynriel and two of these are from the 'harshest' Circle. I can't think of any examples where mages were barred from visiting their family.

 

But yes, it is worth noting that Vivienne is opening to reforming the Circles after order is restored.

[DAJB]

Leliana became the Divine in my playthrough.

 

I didn't realise Vivienne was even an option until just before the end (when, I think, Josephine made a passing comment to that effect). The only names ever mentioned in my conversations were Leliana or Cassandra. I kept waiting for an option to state my support for Cassandra, but it never came, so I got Leliana anyway.

 

I suppose the upside is, we now know that the game can have different outcomes on this point. The downside is, it's never clear what you need to do to ensure you're exercising your influence in a way that ensures the outcome you want.

 

It's similar, I guess, to not being able to gauge your approval rating with your various companions. I know the old approval-meter might seem a bit clunky and artificial but, out here in the real world, you usually can tell who your friends are. Not being able to tell who does or doesn't like you is far more artificial.

[Lucrece]

And by reform I bet she means introducing the Orlesian class system into the circle.

 

There's a dialogue in Emerald Graves between Dorian and Vivienne which clearly illustrates her worldview. After poking by Dorian about Morrigan, Vivienne expresses her outrage over Morrigan's presence in the inquisition, and when the inquisitor tells her he welcome morrigan or that morrigan might help, Vivienne says that Morrigan's the only one who has benefited from the arrangement.

 

I mean, what Vivienne is doing is highly hypocritical given that she admits to join the Inquisition in order to steer matters to her interest, yet when Morrigan does it she's a lowly apostate and a sycophant.

 

 

 

Leliana became the Divine in my playthrough.

 

I didn't realise Vivienne was even an option until just before the end (when, I think, Josephine made a passing comment to that effect). The only names ever mentioned in my conversations were Leliana or Cassandra. I kept waiting for an option to state my support for Cassandra, but it never came, so I got Leliana anyway.

 

I suppose the upside is, we now know that the game can have different outcomes on this point. The downside is, it's never clear what you need to do to ensure you're exercising your influence in a way that ensures the outcome you want.

 

It's similar, I guess, to not being able to gauge your approval rating with your various companions. I know the old approval-meter might seem a bit clunky and artificial but, out here in the real world, you usually can tell who your friends are. Not being able to tell who does or doesn't like you is far more artificial.

 

 

You do get the option. As soon as the sister comes talk to you about Leliana and Cassandra all you need to do is go to the training yard where Cassandra is and it triggers a cutscene of Mother Giselle arguing with Cassandra, trying to convince her to become Divine.

 

And imo I think it's better that they hide approval and don't allow you to track Divine goalposts. They want you to play the game and see the outcomes of your decisions. I can bet that many people here won't make decisions they otherwise would have chosen if they saw an outcome in advance they did not like.

 

It's not artificial, it's lifelike. In life you are never told what the outcomes of your actions may be.

[Eelectrica]

So how do we go about getting Sera as the Divine? Sera would be best Divine.

I ended up with Leliana.

[Nishmo]

This really bugs me, how Vivienne became Divine in my playthrough.

 

I like playing the game while gaining my own Character Development. That is, I'm an Elven Mage. So of course I'm a little "I'm not too sure" regarding shemlen stuff. But as the game went on, I became more hardened and made more critical decisions. The mages were a big responsible party in the Mage vs. Templar war, so I enslaved them. The Grey Wardens did not deserve to be exiled for things done while they were mind controlled, so I did not exile them. Empress Celene maintains the Status Quo of a society I do not understand, so I saved her and reunited her with Briala. I also supported Cassandra entirely and did her operation to help her become Divine. I told Leliana to not become Divine and Vivienne never even mentioned her wanting to be a candidate. She said she supported Cassandra, and I agreed.

 

And yet imagine my surprise when I get to the epilogue and find Vivienne somehow usurped her way to Divinity, something I had no part in deciding. If this is influenced by major actions I took in the game, I'm willing to go back and say "To hell with my own character development" and replay over 80 hours of gameplay just to stop Vivienne from becoming Divine. Who I support as Divine should be a decision I make. I don't understand the logic that my major actions influence who becomes Divine, especially when those actions are in support of Inquisition beliefs, not Chantry beliefs. When the Inquisition comes out and fully supports someone as Divine (like the Operation said I did to support Cassandra), then that means we support Cassandra.

 

As much as I like Dragon Age and see it as my favorite series of all time, this critical decision that I am fully convinced I had no actual control over irks me to no end.

[SusanStoHelit]

I don't think that the opacity of these choices is anything like real life. Yes, in real life, we don't always know what the outcome of things we say or do will be, in some way. But in others, we very much do.

 

If I make anti-religious statements in the real world, present myself as an atheist, and belittle organised religions, I wouldn't be surprised if organised religions (and priests thereof) find me unsettling or upsetting, or even get angry with me. If I'm supportive of them, the opposite should be the case. Here, my characters are either not Andrastian at all (Dalish or Tal-Vashoth), or a mage (Andrastian, but anti-Chantry). Only the human non-mage is pro-Chantry, but believes that the Chantry needs considerable reform. Few, if any, of them are likely to make pro-Chantry (or for most of them even pro-Andraste) statements, most or all will side with the mages.

 

And each of them would have different beliefs about how the Chantry should change, and how much, and who would make the best divine. Yet since it wasn't clear they could have an impact on that, and if so, which choices affected it, they're likely to get who they don't want and wouldn't support. I know my human mage only had Vivienne  (whom she violently disagrees with) pop up as a contender, and neither of the others did.

 

And I can't reload to early on, because limited cloud space for saves made me delete earlier save games. It looks like I'll have to remake those characters and start again. If I can find clear guidance on what exactly impacts the choice of Divine so that I can choose what results fit my character, rather than simply saying/doing what seems closest to what my character would choose at the time. Since it seems that playing in character gets truly skewed results. Viv for my circle-hating mage, who thinks Viv is a selfish elitist? *shudder*

[Fredward]

I got Leliana the Ruthless as Divine. At first I was panicky since she kinda sounded like she was gonna force the rest of the world into the Chantry (and she probably could, scary lady) but no. She just forces everybody to be accepting and ****. I think the best choices would be between her and Cass, Viv is too concerned with her own power and the status quo. Cass would be a nice moderate.

[ArvinDulku]

I'll explain why I have a problem with her.


Vivienne supports the Chantry as it is. Templars as they are. Circles as they are. She thinks that mages should never be free and able to govern themselves because Magic is dangerous(understandable).

However she says "Life in the Circle isn't that bad, I don't know what all the fuss is about" or something along those lines. When she lives in a Mansion, Sleeping with a Duke, Has everything she wants. Able to use magic on Nobles and even kill them with immunity. She knows the ENTIRE Imperial Court by First name basis. She does not have to deal with Templar's standing over her questioning her every move. She is able to leave and live outside the Circle anytime she wants.

Yet she somehow thinks that all Mages do not deserve the same treatment she gets earned or not.

To me she is just a venom-toothed viper that will use and step on anyone to get what she truly wants, which is to be Divine.

.....wow, I am perfectly fine with people whom dislike Vivi, cause she is polarizing in nature.

But this is the first time I have someone who hates a version of her that does not exist.

Huh.

Oh well, only She or Cass will ever be divines in any of my universes. The crazy that is Leli will never ever come close.

[dantares83]

i actually supported Cassandra's views is to have a Circle that allows freedom and learning and the templars to come in only when necessary even though all along I hated the Circles. But Leliana's views of changing everything also scares me because changes should be progressive and one step at a time, it seems she is changing everything at one go which will no doubt create another rebellion in no time.

 

However, I wanted Cass to lead the seekers the way they should be and to take over if Leliana's reforms ended in disaster so I did not support her in the war table eventually. I am glad that I got Leli as Divine in the end. Waiting to see if it is good in DLCs or DA4.

[sylvanaerie]

I believe one of the prerequisites for L becoming divine if you have to do the quest at Divine Justinias original Chantry. (spoilers) you need to convince her not to kill the traitorous sister in the chantry.

Leliana killed her in my first game and ended up divine at the end.  Though liberal with the mages, she was rather bloodthirsty in her approach to threats to the Faith.

[Johnsen1972]

Vivienne is actually a good devine. Im my warrior templar playthrough I suipported here because I romanced Cassie.

She restores order in Thedas and mages are happy in circles

[sylvanaerie]

But can we trust what she says?  Bioware games don't usually actively deceive you through the NPCs but they do often promote perspectives that aren't representative of the entire truth.  Vivienne's account conflicts with numerous others heard over the course of three games: which to we consider more valid?  

 

 

Vivienne is clearly enormously invested in maintaining her power base and social status.  She is also a consummate politician and player of the Game.  I don't doubt what she says has some truth.  We know that Kirkwall's Circle was one of the most repressive.  But this doesn't change the fact that her experience, based on everything else we've ever seen of the world and its treatment of mages, is extreme in the opposite direction.  That her Circle apparently hob-nobbed with the nobility and encouraged its members to take positions as exotic members of the court doesn't mean that's normal.  

 

In DA:O it's stated at the Circle in Lake Calenhad that it's extremely rare for the First Enchanter to give permission to a mage to live or even travel outside the tower.  Wynne wasn't allowed to raise her own child.  Freedom of communication with one's family - freedom to have a family - were both severely curtailed at a Circle that has not been waved about as "the one bad apple that spoils the bunch".  And it certainly didn't seem like living outside the Circle with the First Enchanter's permission was as trivial to achieve as Vivienne makes it sound.  

 

Even if Kirkwall's circumstances were extreme, Divine Justinia ordered an investigation into it and did nothing.  Whatever the reasons for that decision, and however complicated they may have been, it makes it hard to argue that there's nothing wrong with the current system when rampant abuses can be investigated by the highest moral authority and excuses found to leave them as it is.  There but for the grace of Andraste go I, and all that...

 

I actually don't hate Vivienne at all.  I don't personally like or agree with her, but I find her fascinating, and from what I can tell, if she is made Divine even she would institute changes designed to curtail abuses of Templar power and to provide Mages within the Circles with more self-governance.  

 

But her off-hand dismissal of most of the rest of the lore regarding the freedoms actually available to Mages is deeply suspect and I don't think we can use that one line to promote an unexamined assumption that Mages can all go live wherever they want with a permission slip.  

 

Wilhelm lived in Honnleath, not a Circle, traveled extensively (and repeatedly) into the deep roads in search of ancient dwarven knowledge (how he acquired Shale) and had a family (with at least one son who has a daughter by the time of the fifth blight).

 

All Wynne has to do is ask Irving and she gets to go with the WC.  Irving even says "you weren't one to just sit around in the circle..." implying this isn't the first time she has done so.

 

Ines is out in Amaranthine picking flowers in the wilderness.

 

During Awakening, Wynne is traveling to the college in Cumberland for a mages' conference to discuss the issues eventually dealt with in Inquisition.

 

The Warden Commander (HoF) may become Arl of Amaranthine while there, and he/she has the potential to be an Amell/Surana.

 

Bethany can be taken to the circle and gets leave twice: once to go to the warden keep nearby to deal with the Carta/Corypheus, and once to attend a party (during the events of the two DLC's).  Leandra speaks of visiting her.  Gamlen goes to inform her what happened to her mother.  She writes about how she's doing in the Circle, which she says isn't as horrible as she had feared.  Now, granted her status as nobility (even 'fallen' since as a mage, she's not supposed to have a title) probably meant some concessions were made for her, which her sibling being "The Champion of Kirkwall" probably did some wheel greasing as well, but even then, Kirkwall was the circle with the worst rep--something even Vivienne will admit.  And she still enjoyed more freedom than Anders experienced.

 

As a Circle mage from one of the more nuetral circles, the Inquisitor can have a varied background the player chooses during one of your first conversations with Josephine.  You can make it as oppressed or as free as you wish.  I chose for mine that she was on good terms with her familiy, liked to go spend time with them during holidays etc.  and in the end she ended up supporting Vivienne (kind of incidentally by her decisions in game, not actively going to the wartable or anything).  I was astonished Vivienne managed to have the political chops to get the appointment.  A place in court is one thing, but a mage sitting on the seat of the Divine?  Unheard of, I thought.

 

It was a cool ending.  Initial plays are for me to see what happens when i do X choice anyway.

[Farangbaa]

Told Vivienne I wanted Cassandra as Divine. Game said she 'greatly approves'. Pushed for Cassandra, Cassandra became Divine. To be honest, I don't know what my stance on the chantry was, but I did save and ally with the mages.

In my first run I didn't bother with who became divine very much (at a certain point I just wanted to finish the game ), and got Vivienne as Divine. Sided with the Templars.

[ArvinDulku]

 

Play as a Pro-Freedom Circle Mage and you'll see it. Everytime you even mention mages should be free she disapproves. When you mention anything negative about the Chantry/Templars and their treatment of mages all around Thedas(Vints excluded) she disagrees saying she doesn't believe it was "that bad". Sure she said Kirkwall mages had it rough. But she still thinks mages don't deserve their freedom because they "might" set fire to their house, or burn their mother in a fit of rage.

 
Uh, no. She in fact says the very idea of asking an idividual mage how circle life is redundant as every mage will have a deffirent experience. She never justifies the horrors of Kirkwall, and considering that she is correct to say it sin't that bad as proven by by listening to people who aren't Anders or Fiona talk about Circles. 

And she is right, mages are dangerous simply by their nature. It isn't fair of course, but facts are facts.
 

Danger lurks everywhere in Thedas and you don't have to be a mage to be a monster. She sits pretty in a Mansion living outside the Circle(Which no other mage in any other Circle outside Orlais can do). She has an open relationship with a Duke(Which no other mage outside Orlais can do I.E Jowan and Lily, Wynne and Whathisface). She uses Magic to freeze and possibly kill a Noble(Which no other mage outside Orlais can do, even saying you would use magic against a noble would get you tranquilled or killed).
 
But all that is overlooked because she's a chantry supporter/wise motherly type? You can just feel they Hypocrisy ooze off her whenever she talks about the Circle. The 2 things she has ever said to my Mage that had any sort of normality to it was how the Circle should be a place where one can feel protected and learn, and that Cass would make a fine Divine.

The position of court enchanter is normally equvilant to a couurt jester, Vivi is the first mage to actually play the game within the set rules of society and prove her worth and make the position something of envy and actual worth. Any and all her position and power are earned though both her own efforts and admitedly some luck. Yes, she plays the game and likes power, but how is that a negative?

She simply expects mages to work from within, gain responsibility , excell and through that prominence and trust (which is exactly what happens if she is divine). The very idea of giving mages freedom for freedom sake is both selfish and morally repugnant and truth be told be unlike the likes of Fiona she actually cares about her fellow mages.

And how is she a hypocrite? That is the weirdest accusition to throw at her.
 

I highly doubt she would have the views she has if she didn't get the perks she has. I can bet her tune would sour if she had to spend a month in the Fereldan Tower, and/or a week in the Kirkwall Tower. And from what I understood there are Circles out there that were worse than those 2.

Nope, Kirkwall was an exception unto itself on how bad it was. And Ferelden? That place was perfectly liberal in its mage treatment, almost coddling, which shows again when you give a mage an inch, they do stupidly horrible things.

So no, she would probably have the exact same views.

Sorry about the spelling and typos, on phone in boring work meeting.

[sylvanaerie]

I've yet to have Leliana become Divine but I had heard that if you let her kill the first guy in Haven and the Chantry Sister she becomes "Hardened" and basically pulls a "Holy Crusade" on Thedas.

This is the result of my first game.  She's very liberal and makes some much needed changes in the structure, but her solution to opposition is rather bloody as I recall.

 

Slides of Leliana as Divine Victoria if you wish to peruse them:  Bear with me, I'm new to Photoshop and have yet to figure out how to get slides to post.  Trying a different way to see if this works...

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

*Edit* and YAY I figured it out FINALLY!!