209 réponses à ce sujet

[Aulis Vaara]

Eh, never mind. Not relevant to the discussion. 

[SofaJockey]

Ok so I know this poor horse has been dead a long time now. ...

 

Yep.

 

[Joseph Warrick]

In Skyrim I have one answer for everything.

 

FUS!

 

It makes role playing easier.

[sylvanaerie]

My Warden could:

1) Strike a deal with a demon for Connors body.

2) Threaten the demon to do what I say.

3) Ask the demon to leave Connor alone.

 

My Inquisitor would tell the demon to leave Connor alone:

1) Angrily.

2) Diplomatically

3) Sobbingly. 

That is not 'more meaningful'.  It's just silent.  All those options would be there for a voiced protagonist as well, you are just assuming you have only one option because it's voiced.  

The only difference between the two is, your warden would do it with a blank stare if viewed from the front.  Or you get to watch the back of his head while you imagine him speaking.

Boring.

[Taleroth]

That is not 'more meaningful'.  It's just silent.  All those options would be there for a voiced protagonist as well, you are just assuming you have only one option because it's voiced.  

The only difference between the two is, your warden would do it with a blank stare if viewed from the front.  Or you get to watch the back of his head while you imagine him speaking.

Boring.

Actually they wouldn't be there for a voiced protagonist.

 

Voiced lines are inherently more expensive than text. There is no free lunch.

 

With Inquisition, for example, they had to hire four extra voice actors to contribute a sizeable number of lines for the Inquisitor. That expense could have gone towards the lines for NPC responses.

[AtreiyaN7]

I totally didn't miss the silent protagonist and found at least one scene in particular rather heartbreaking just because of my character's delivery. So I'll keep my voiced protagonist, tyvm. I can't imagine that the impact would have been the same without it being voiced like that.

[Ashagar]

Neither type are inherently better its how they are excuted and written that makes a voiced or silence protagonist good or bad not wither they are silent or voiced.

[KaiserShep]

This all seems like a bit of a hyperbole to me, but I suppose it doesn't really matter in the end. For better or worse, the silent protagonist in BioWare's games is extinct.

[Kantr]

You have a huge problem you know?

I will try to explain it once for you, and I hope you understand.

 

How many games there are for people who love Origins like me and others? None.
How many retarded action games with voiced characters there are? Trillions billions of infinite bazillions.

 

We all get you people who loved the changes but there were already thousand of games with some or almost all of the features of DAI. I get that in your minds DAI is unique, so, ok, I kind of understand it but it is a lot easier for people who like voiced actor, action and things like that to find games. Now we who like the good old Bioware RPG are so fucked up... we have nothing! We have hopes in some indie games, and some like Divinity don't fail in being awesome but there are a couple of games like we want so you could just play other dumbed down retarded consolized games instead of spreading this disease to great franchises like Dragon Age. But it is like zombie virus, Dragon Age has been bitten, it is definetly good bye, there is no salvation...

 

But from now on, you could try being happy with the **** that is already shitty as you want them to be instead of spreading your crap through the whole gaming world making all the games be this huge stinky ****. Of course I'm speaking with knowledge that you are not guilty, but I wanted to offend you, so I better do it while saying batshit crazy things so that it makes even less sense.

I have a huge problem? sounds like you have the problem. Picking on me.

 

There are many games with un-voiced protag.

 

Bioware have chosen to have a voiced protag and I enjoy having it. While I liked DA:O without knowing the tone of the lines it's hard to get peoples reactions. As someone mentioned there's a line that sounds jokey but in the toolset its in fact a mean line.

 

So stop moaning and play all the games without a voice.

[Farangbaa]

You have a huge problem you know?

I will try to explain it once for you, and I hope you understand.

 

How many games there are for people who love Origins like me and others? None.
How many retarded action games with voiced characters there are? Trillions billions of infinite bazillions.

 

We all get you people who loved the changes but there were already thousand of games with some or almost all of the features of DAI. I get that in your minds DAI is unique, so, ok, I kind of understand it but it is a lot easier for people who like voiced actor, action and things like that to find games. Now we who like the good old Bioware RPG are so fucked up... we have nothing! We have hopes in some indie games, and some like Divinity don't fail in being awesome but there are a couple of games like we want so you could just play other dumbed down retarded consolized games instead of spreading this disease to great franchises like Dragon Age. But it is like zombie virus, Dragon Age has been bitten, it is definetly good bye, there is no salvation...

 

But from now on, you could try being happy with the **** that is already shitty as you want them to be instead of spreading your crap through the whole gaming world making all the games be this huge stinky ****. Of course I'm speaking with knowledge that you are not guilty, but I wanted to offend you, so I better do it while saying batshit crazy things so that it makes even less sense.

 

That guy/gal has a problem?

 

Something with a pot, a kettle and black.

[Pewps]

Voiced protagonists are for plebs. Only members of the unwashed masses enjoy them. 

[loungeshep]

I was gonna chime in, but nope, staying out of it, would rather argue the merits of Mass Effect 3's ending.

[KaiserShep]

Voiced protagonists are for plebs. Only members of the unwashed masses enjoy them. 

 

Peasant woman: Don't like Darktown? Die and make room!

[Pasquale1234]

Considering how pissy people get over the dialogue wheel doing the exact same thing, I extremely doubt it's as simple as all that.

A lot of the frustration RE the dialogue wheel - at least in the discussions I've been around - is because the paraphrase provided bears little resemblance to what actually comes out of the PC's mouth. In DA2, players could select only tone, not content or intent - and since the actual dialogue was written and performed screenplay-style, Hawke would sometimes spout motives in direct conflict with what a player might have had in mind.

I really liked the way dialogue was handled in Dragon's Dogma. It wasn't even actual dialogue, just pure intent. For example:
- Hear him out
- Not now

and that left the player entirely free to create not only actual dialogue, but also tone and motives.
 

Frankly, they included many options this time of what your character would respond like (sad, joking, aggressive, confused etc) if there was an 'emotional' response called for.  And you get to see the character responding to the story not just watching the back of his head impassively while you read text and the NPCs do all the acting/reacting.  

I hated silent protagonist.  It was especially immersion breaking when something would happen and every other person in the room reacts to it while the warden just stood there, impassively.  That creepy blank stare when the City Elf's bridesmaid is cut down while every other person in the room reacts to it was immediately immersion blowing.

In the original release of DA2, Hawke made a facial expression at the end of Isabela's recruitment quest, after she had delivered the line that was essentially a come-on. A lot of people complained about Hawke's reaction (facial expression), saying their Hawke would have no interest in Isabela, and it was removed in a patch. It can become pretty costly to supply different sorts of animations for players with different interests and intentions for scenes like that.

And frankly, I'd rather role-play the PC in first person than watch the character.
 

The 'wheel' isn't ambiguous.  It's pretty much idiot proof.

Except that you never know what the character is actually going to say until s/he says it.
 

Not sure why people are having such issues with it.  It's not hard.  You get joking, mean, sad, confused or diplomatic options spelled out for you by icons.  People just expect the response to be 'word for word' and it's a paraphrasing of what's presented.  The dialogue itself doesn't change the tone.  If they click an 'aggressive/angry' response then they will get an 'aggressive/angry' response, not a joking or diplomatic or sad response.

It's not hard so long as you don't expect to know the PC's mind or inner world, but merely accept whatever the character expresses.

IRL, have you ever had anyone misunderstand you, misinterpret you, or unfairly assign some motives or agenda to your actions that are completely contrary to your intention? Frustrating, isn't it?

That's exactly how I feel when I try to role-play a voiced character from a paraphrase. What actually comes out of it isn't what I wanted or expected.

A voiced PC will always be some version of what the writers, animators, and VAs envisioned them to be. They can't ever be anything else, and the player has no way to create, shape, or influence any part of who that character can become. You are strictly limited to what has already been fully programmed.

I do understand that a lot of people really enjoy watching the characters' reactions. While I can also appreciate the entertainment value in that, it is, for me, an entirely different kind of entertainment experience than actual role-playing.

[robertthebard]

You have a huge problem you know?
I will try to explain it once for you, and I hope you understand.
 
How many games there are for people who love Origins like me and others? None.
How many retarded action games with voiced characters there are? Trillions billions of infinite bazillions.
 
We all get you people who loved the changes but there were already thousand of games with some or almost all of the features of DAI. I get that in your minds DAI is unique, so, ok, I kind of understand it but it is a lot easier for people who like voiced actor, action and things like that to find games. Now we who like the good old Bioware RPG are so fucked up... we have nothing! We have hopes in some indie games, and some like Divinity don't fail in being awesome but there are a couple of games like we want so you could just play other dumbed down retarded consolized games instead of spreading this disease to great franchises like Dragon Age. But it is like zombie virus, Dragon Age has been bitten, it is definetly good bye, there is no salvation...
 
But from now on, you could try being happy with the **** that is already shitty as you want them to be instead of spreading your crap through the whole gaming world making all the games be this huge stinky ****. Of course I'm speaking with knowledge that you are not guilty, but I wanted to offend you, so I better do it while saying batshit crazy things so that it makes even less sense.

I hate to be the one to break this to you, but we didn't make the design choice, BioWare did. We didn't do a movement, we didn't go on strike outside their offices, and we didn't go spam places like Amazon with reviews that discouraged buying the game due to a silent protagonist. They came to the design choice all on their own. So, if you're that unhappy, I'd suggest taking your ball and going home. That day is over. They pointed that out a couple of times in these threads. If that makes you unhappy enough that you feel like you have to assign blame on those of us that, like you, buy and play their games, perhaps they're no longer making games you'll like?

I get it, your feelings are hurt, or something, but here's the kicker, I don't care. I'm not responsible for the design choice, and I'm not responsible for how much anguish it puts you through. I am neither entertained by your pain, or outraged that you're going through it. I am, however, perplexed on how you figure it's our fault that you're not getting your way.

[sylvanaerie]

Actually they wouldn't be there for a voiced protagonist.

 

Voiced lines are inherently more expensive than text. There is no free lunch.

 

With Inquisition, for example, they had to hire four extra voice actors to contribute a sizeable number of lines for the Inquisitor. That expense could have gone towards the lines for NPC responses.

Yes, they would.  Your inquisitor doesn't have to respond every question emotionally.  A lot of dialogue is voiced with neutral responses.  There is also a lot of dialogue voiced emotionally.  It only shows up for specific moments. 

 

To use the example of responses above, admittedly a poor one but I'm gonna go with how I can see it play out:

 

Inquisitor threatens the demon to leave. (angry response)

Inquisitor negotiates a deal with the demon. (charming/crafty)

Inquisitor asks demon to leave the boy alone. (diplomatically)

 

Granted, lines of text means cheaper production costs, I'll grant you that, but voiced doesn't mean less meaningful responses.  It just means you get to interact with the world around your character rather than just blankly staring or watching an impassive response over the shoulder of the protagonist.  I had far more immersion breaking when people would talk and react to the situation around my warden and my warden just stood there like a slug.

You can see the anger on the inquisitor's face to 'threaten the demon' or the sly smile as she makes her deal, or the serious expression as she attempts to reason with the creature.  You become involved in her story.  You don't stare at impassive lines of dialogue, making up your character's response in your head. 

 

 

[robertthebard]

Yes, they would.  Your inquisitor doesn't have to respond every question emotionally.  A lot of dialogue is voiced with neutral responses.  There is also a lot of dialogue voiced emotionally.  It only shows up for specific moments. 
 
To use the example of responses above, admittedly a poor one but I'm gonna go with how I can see it play out:
 
Inquisitor threatens the demon to leave. (angry response)
Inquisitor negotiates a deal with the demon. (charming/crafty)
Inquisitor asks demon to leave the boy alone. (diplomatically)
 
Granted, lines of text means cheaper production costs, I'll grant you that, but voiced doesn't mean less meaningful responses.  It just means you get to interact with the world around your character rather than just blankly staring or watching an impassive response over the shoulder of the protagonist.  I had far more immersion breaking when people would talk and react to the situation around my warden and my warden just stood there like a slug.
You can see the anger on the inquisitor's face to 'threaten the demon' or the sly smile as she makes her deal, or the serious expression as she attempts to reason with the creature.  You become involved in her story.  You don't stare at impassive lines of dialogue, making up your character's response in your head.

Then blowing up the forums when your head canon line didn't match what the writer intended for the line you didn't say.

[peasant007]

None of that is for immersion though. It's all tactical advantage. LARPing is more than beating your buddy with a nerf sword. It's full on fantasy play with hierarchy and such. Much more ridiculous.

 

I met my husband while LARPing.  We've been married for 11 years.  We game together (no such thing as "wife/husband aggro" in our house) and we're best friends.  And last year we welcomed a beautiful baby girl.  My life (as well as my husband's) is so much more fulfilled because I decided to LARP.

 

So, please, tell me again how LARPing is for losers.  Will you be doing that before or after you play some more of this video game set in a fantasy world?  

[KaiserShep]

It's kinda ironic to make fun of LARPing on an RPG forum. People need to cut that out.

 

I hate to be the one to break this to you, but we didn't make the design choice, BioWare did. We didn't do a movement, we didn't go on strike outside their offices, and we didn't go spam places like Amazon with reviews that discouraged buying the game due to a silent protagonist. They came to the design choice all on their own.

 

It seems to me that the voiced protagonist was always something that BioWare was leaning towards doing, considering that they designed a lot of their games to have a more cinematic experience. While some might balk at the whole idea of there being more "cinematic" anything in a videogame, it seems to me that voicing the protagonist was a natural progression of a design trend they've been following for years. And it proved to be seriously successful. I guess one might be inclined to blame all those people who bought into the whole thing, but yeah, they didn't get the ball rolling.

[Taleroth]

Yes, they would.  Your inquisitor doesn't have to respond every question emotionally.  A lot of dialogue is voiced with neutral responses.  There is also a lot of dialogue voiced emotionally.  It only shows up for specific moments. 

 

To use the example of responses above, admittedly a poor one but I'm gonna go with how I can see it play out:

 

Inquisitor threatens the demon to leave. (angry response)

Inquisitor negotiates a deal with the demon. (charming/crafty)

Inquisitor asks demon to leave the boy alone. (diplomatically)

 

Granted, lines of text means cheaper production costs, I'll grant you that, but voiced doesn't mean less meaningful responses.  It just means you get to interact with the world around your character rather than just blankly staring or watching an impassive response over the shoulder of the protagonist.  I had far more immersion breaking when people would talk and react to the situation around my warden and my warden just stood there like a slug.

You can see the anger on the inquisitor's face to 'threaten the demon' or the sly smile as she makes her deal, or the serious expression as she attempts to reason with the creature.  You become involved in her story.  You don't stare at impassive lines of dialogue, making up your character's response in your head. 

 

 

 

I'm talking about response OF NPCs. Not response to NPCs.

 

If we have the budget for 21 voiced words and we spend 12 of those on 4 PC voice actors saying "I should go." This leaves the NPC being talked to with 9 words. And the PC only even had one choice to present.

 

If we have the budget for 21 voiced words and we spend none of those on voice acting the PC, using only text, this leaves the NPC with the full 21 words to craft a response from. They can do 7 words for each response, each being unique. Maybe one response can start with an angry 2 words and go into 5 words shared with the second neutral response. And the third response gets a happy 9 all to itself.

 

 

Let's take your example.

Inquisitor: Leave, now! (2 words, 4 voice actors = 8 words)

Inquisitor: Let's work something out. (16 words)

Inquisitor: Would you leave the boy alone? (24 words)

 

Total of 48 words.

 

With unvoiced PC, that's 48 words the demon could have used.

[robertthebard]

I'm talking about response OF NPCs. Not response to NPCs.
 
If we have the budget for 21 voiced words and we spend 12 of those on 4 PC voice actors saying "I should go." This leaves the NPC being talked to with 9 words. That's an average of 3 words per response or one larger 9 word response that ignores what the PC said.
 
If we have the budget for 21 voiced words and we spend none of those on voice acting, using only text, this leaves the NPC with the full 21 words to craft a response from. They can do 7 words for each response, each being unique.

Cool, so instead of "I'll see you later", they could say "I'll see you later dude".

[Switish]

I dont think I can play any game with a silent protagonist after Mass Effect, sure I love the classics like NW, Kotor/2 and the first Dragon age but the only reason I can still play them now is because its from a time when VO were not around, I just don't see much hope for an RPG with a silent protag when ME set the bar for it, it just feels off. DAI is kind enough to give the options of two voice actors and I believe that was a god send due to having a rugged looking Herald that would not fit a posh British accent and vice versa. Im also too in love with Alix Wilton's voice.....

[Rawgrim]

Its also among the biggest problems in story-telling of skyrim ... it simply .. lacks immersion. It wold make for some awesome epic scenes if your Dragonborn could stand up to Alduin and shout something to his face ... shout something other than Fus-Roh-Dah I mean ^^

 

I really wish Bethesda would "borrow" at least some ideas of Bioware, just as they did.

 

I had zero problems immersing myself into that game, really. The same with Fallout 3 and New Vegas.

[Big Magnet]

How about instead it has mic support and you just read your own lines aloud

Man I would pay to watch Simon Templeman playing O.O