265 réponses à ce sujet

[garrusfan1]

She said how the mages rebelling at this time was a horrible idea given what just happened. Saying it made them look like they support what anders did. I still agree with the mages that they should be free but she brings up a really good point. Anyone else catch this

[Ailith Tycane]

As far as magic and circles go I actually agree with Vivienne very much. And she's right, the timing of the rebellion was bad because it did make them look like they condoned mass murder. 

[Farangbaa]

Darling, how can you not like Vivienne?

And the world state I used for my first run was pretty much a Vivienne-run.. I just didn't know her yet. All the way from DA:O to DA:I, my Warden/Hawke/Inquisitor mages sides with the Templars. I found it rather interesting... and Vivienne's just like that, restoring the circles when she becomes Divine and all.

My next run will be an elf mage who's on the opposite side of the spectrum.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Vivienne gets it.

[AtreiyaN7]

Yes, I believe in mage freedom, but Vivienne made several excellent points that I agreed with. I'm still in favor of mage freedom, yet I also don't want everyone going all Tevinter Imperium. Speaking of the Tevinter Imperium, I certainly hope that Dorian somehow manages to influence his people back home and can eventually clean up the corruption within the Magisterium. If he needs any backing, my mage-quisitor would be happy to lend her not inconsiderable power and influence to make it happen.

[DuskWanderer]

Vivienne can be grating in party dialogue, but she's absolutely right about mages and the mage rebellion. Magic will find neither structure nor nurturing on it's own, it needs a place to blossom and a place where one can understand it. While the Circle could use more knowledge about spirits, a place to learn is well and good. 

[AlphaDormante]

Vivienne's opinion on things is how I've viewed them from the start, and I was very pleasantly surprised to realize that they included that stance in the game. My mage Hawke sided with the templars in Kirkwall and I thought I might be punished by a narrative who wouldn't work that viewpoint into the story. I'm delighted that not only was it worked in, but the one who has it is a powerful player in the plot.

[Obadiah]

I don't agree with Vivienne. She judges others that are far more oppressed from a position of privilege. I understand her position, but that's just not how revolutions work - they don't wait for the "best" opportunity to start. To the oppressed, the status quo is an ongoing wrong just waiting to justify itself, and then reinforce its position. Its just the way institutions are. It doesn't matter how nice the mages behave, or how helpful they are, the majority is just waiting for one crazy mage to justify the oppression of all mages. The circles were always going to rebel, and when they did the Templars would not stand for it, and it was going to be bad.

[Xilizhra]

Darling, how can you not like Vivienne?

Because she's like Morrigan, if Morrigan was even more egotistical, a snobbish noble conservative, possessed no redeeming qualities whatsoever, and had terrible hair.

 

The only one I want around her is Cole, as he tears through her walls with ease. As for her opinions, she has no real ability to defend the Circle to a Dalish mage.

[Bigdoser]

Because she's like Morrigan, if Morrigan was even more egotistical, a snobbish noble conservative, possessed no redeeming qualities whatsoever, and had terrible hair.

 

The only one I want around her is Cole, as he tears through her walls with ease. As for her opinions, she has no real ability to defend the Circle to a Dalish mage.

It was pretty fun watching cole tear into her even if he does not mean to do it. XD 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

As for her opinions, she has no real ability to defend the Circle to a Dalish mage.

 

Yup, Minavie is all the argument required.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I don't agree with Vivienne. She judges others that are far more oppressed from a position of privilege. I understand her position, but that's just not how revolutions work - they don't wait for the "best" opportunity to start. To the oppressed, the status quo is an ongoing wrong just waiting to justify itself, and then reinforce of its position. Its just the way institutions are. It doesn't matter how nice the mages behave, or how helpful they are, the majority is just waiting for one crazy mage to justify the oppression of all mages. The circles were always going to rebel, and when they did the Templars would not stand for it, and it was going to be bad.

 

Does anyone else see the dissonance between dismissing Vivienne's opinion because her experiences in the system were positive, and disagreeing with her on the basis of some mages having had negative experiences in it -- why is it that one counts, but the other doesn't? Seems to me that the "skew" people speak of exists on both sides. However, Vivienne does say very clearly that not every Circle functions perfectly (singling out Kirkwall in particular), but that that can be said of life anywhere in Thedas.

[Deanna]

I support mage freedom as well but I also feel there should be circles but instead of a prison, make the circles into an academy. Mages need a safe place to harness their gifts and they should also be allowed to see their families. Putting all those crazy restrictions and rules on em is what led to all this. Viv has sense but she's a ****** lol

[Bigdoser]

I support mage freedom as well but I also feel there should be circles but instead of a prison, make the circles into an academy. Mages need a safe place to harness their gifts and they should also be allowed to see their families. Putting all those crazy restrictions and rules on em is what led to all this. Viv has sense but she's a ****** lol

Well you can get that kind of place if you make a full alliance with mages and a certain someone becomes a divine. 

[Dave of Canada]

Vivienne was exactly what we needed, as we had a severe lack of mages with common sense and reason after DA2.

[Obadiah]

Does anyone else see the dissonance between dismissing Vivienne's opinion because her experiences in the system were positive, and disagreeing with her on the basis of some mages having had negative experiences in it -- why is it that one counts, but the other doesn't? Seems to me that the "skew" people speak of exists on both sides.
...

It is not really a disconnect. In any institution, some are always benefiting, otherwise the institution wouldn't exist. The people succeeding don't want a revolution, don't need a revolution, they're fine with the institution because the institution works for them. The institutional losers, the ones oppressed, the ones disenfranchised, are the ones with concerns that aren't being addressed.

[Xilizhra]

Does anyone else see the dissonance between dismissing Vivienne's opinion because her experiences in the system were positive, and disagreeing with her on the basis of some mages having had negative experiences in it -- why is it that one counts, but the other doesn't? Seems to me that the "skew" people speak of exists on both sides. However, Vivienne does say very clearly that not every Circle functions perfectly (singling out Kirkwall in particular), but that that can be said of life anywhere in Thedas.

I don't dismiss Vivienne having a positive experience in the Circle. What I oppose is her bizarre insistence that "loyal" mages have to side with the templars and fight the rebellion, her general paranoia, and her utter callousness.

[StaceysChain]

Well you can get that kind of place if you make a full alliance with mages and a certain someone becomes a divine. 

 

So what happens if you conscript the mages instead?

[Volourn]

"As far as magic and circles go I actually agree with Vivienne very much. And she's right, the timing of the rebellion was bad because it did make them look like they condoned mass murder."

 

Siding with Templars/Chantry makes you condone slavery, brainwashing, nazism, evil, kidnapping, rape, police states, and mass murder.

 

Siding with the mages doesn't make you pro mass murder. Heck, in my DA2 playthrough, I sided with the mages and executed Anders on the spot.

[ttestagr]

She said how the mages rebelling at this time was a horrible idea given what just happened. Saying it made them look like they support what anders did. I still agree with the mages that they should be free but she brings up a really good point. Anyone else catch this

 

The problem with her opinion and that line of thought is that there is a very big elephant in the room.  The Rite of Annulment and the fact that Meredith invoked it on a Circle that had nothing to do with the attack.  Its a pretty big deal for wanting to fight back after all, especially since the conflict opens up with the Templars attempting a first strike genocide of every Circle before they could hear the news of what happened at the Spire.  Vivienne's arguments tend to whitewash and outright ignore massive amounts of information that tear them to shreds.  Also the Chantry is after all, the authority that calls for the genocide of entire cities worth of mages.  And has done so at a rate at least once every 38 years even before the games start and we see about 3 or 4 in the timespan of a decade.  Fact is that the Chantry there and its Grand Cleric were actively considering calling an Annulment, information Anders would know about since Hawke was there for some of the discussion.  The Chantry as an organization is no innocent in this matter.

 

With Ander's involvement in the game literally starting off by learning a friend and former lover got lobotomized illegally with no justice and he had the dude beg to kill him...  I'm amazed it took him 7 years to attack.

[Urazz]

I think Vivienne did have some valid arguments but I think she was also wrong on a lot of arguments as well.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

It is not really a disconnect. In any institution, some are always benefiting, otherwise the institution wouldn't exist. The people succeeding don't want a revolution, don't need a revolution, they're fine with the institution because the institution works for them. The institutional losers, the ones oppressed, the ones disenfranchised, are the ones with concerns that aren't being addressed.

 

Can't please everyone.

[Farangbaa]

Because she's like Morrigan, if Morrigan was even more egotistical, a snobbish noble conservative, possessed no redeeming qualities whatsoever, and had terrible hair.
 
The only one I want around her is Cole, as he tears through her walls with ease. As for her opinions, she has no real ability to defend the Circle to a Dalish mage.

But darling, how can you not like Morrigan?

These people and their opinions, aaargh

[Xilizhra]

But darling, how can you not like Morrigan?

These people and their opinions, aaargh

I actually do like Morrigan. It's just that Vivienne has all of Morrigan's bad qualities and none of the good.