265 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Damn, that's an pretty spot on description of yourself JB. Are you sure you're not Xilizhra lost twin or something? Because you two behave in the same way, just with polar opinions.

Ok, now that I find offensive.

[Boost32]

Why are you trying to claim human genocide? This was never alluded to. I also have no idea why the sacking of Val Royeaux keeps getting brought up as some kind of atrocity when taking enemy cities is sort of the point.

Ofc it was, the elves killed humans when they invaded Orlais.
"The Chantry's response to the elven aggression that resulted in the slaughter of hundreds was predictable."
http://dragonage.wik...ch_of_the_Dales

Because when you sack a city you don't ask nicely, you kill, plunder and leave with the spoils of the attack.

[Iakus]

I believe this thread has thoroughly explored why Human and Elven religions both suck. All hail the paragons, go Dwarves!

 ppppthhh.  The dwarves have a society that more resembles the drow than anything else!

[Xilizhra]

Ok, let us recapitulate.

 

You claim most people within the setting favor mages. However, you fail to present a single line of dialogue.

When I do present multiple evidence of how most people were against the mages, you basically said the game itself is wrong. because it disagrees with you.

 

Then, when I point this out, your response is "I got my ending nahnahnah and you can't do anything about it nahnahnah."

 

So, really I don't think I need to say anything. Your actions speak for themselves.

Actually, I said that the game disagrees with itself, because virtually no one we actually meet thinks that way.

 

If you wish... the ambient dialogue in Redcliffe heavily favors the mages, especially when you succeed at defeating both the apostates and the templars, with the people celebrating the defeat of the templars and being skeptical about reports of any atrocities committed by the apostates.

The people at the Crossroads had no problem accepting mage help.

Opposition to the Inquisition for allying with the mage rebellion never actually materializes.

The Freemen of the Dales, who are mostly regular soldiers, work with strange mages without any issues.

No one ever looks askance at the Inquisitor or any companions for being mage, beyond one upstart Chantry mother.

And so forth. It seems that all this terror about mages is confined to the war table.

[Iakus]

For the former, the Inquisition repudiated the mage rebellion. For the latter, Venatori. Most of them seem to narrowly favor the mages.

 

 

My Inquisition didn't repudiate the rebellion.  It simply tried to recruit the Templars first.  My Trevelyan happily accepted any mage who wanted to join up.

 

 

 

They absolutely are. All blame ascribed to them for the rebellion, with the assumption that the rebellion was unjust, is the product of idiots (as opposed to the Venatori thing, which may be more legitimately criticized).

Yeah, let's not go into the events of Asunder yet again.

 

 

Drakon, the one who wanted an Andrastian cult that would endorse his empire.

Drakon, the guy who was

Spoiler

best friends with a Dalish mage?  

 And who helped create the Circle system so mages wouldn't have to fear getting lynched by angry mobs?

[Xilizhra]

My Inquisition didn't repudiate the rebellion.  It simply tried to recruit the Templars first.  My Trevelyan happily accepted any mage who wanted to join up.

Well, that's not the opinion of the masses, evidently.

 

 

Yeah, let's not go into the events of Asunder yet again.

It's not a game that does a good job of integrating events in the novels to itself when it completely fails to, you know, actually reflect those events. At least, not if said events were significant.

 

 

Drakon, the guy who was

Spoiler

best friends with a Dalish mage?  

 And who helped create the Circle system so mages wouldn't have to fear getting lynched by angry mobs?

I didn't say that Drakon was necessarily an Andrastian zealot; in fact, such behavior is more likely if he wasn't. I say only that he was a power-hungry warmonger who created the Chantry to help him in being power-hungry and warmongering.

[Jaison1986]

 

Drakon, the guy who was

Spoiler

best friends with a Dalish mage?  

 And who helped create the Circle system so mages wouldn't have to fear getting lynched by angry mobs?

 

Spoiler

Well, Ameridan was kind of ridiculous, following two religions that, well let's be honest, don't mix at all.

 

Also, he never helped to creat the circle. He only hunted demons and blood mages. The circle was created after his disappearance. In fact, he was pretty appalled when he heard what became of the Seeker order.

[LOLandStuff]

I like how Xil doesn't even mention that Dalish who killed that woman running with a piece of paper in hand, but is quick to throw the blame at a bunch of peasants who retaliated.

And she makes it sound as if they had enchanted pitchforks and flamethrowing torches, while the elite soldiers of the Dales had nothing but lvl1 loot of rusty swords and torn trousers.

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

My Inquisition didn't repudiate the rebellion. It simply tried to recruit the Templars first. My Trevelyan happily accepted any mage who wanted to join up.


Yeah, let's not go into the events of Asunder yet again.

Drakon, the guy who was

Spoiler

best friends with a Dalish mage?

And who helped create the Circle system so mages wouldn't have to fear getting lynched by angry mobs?

Actually, he advisors say you are abandoning he mages to become slaves if you say you should get the Templars to help you out in he Mage mission briefing

[Boost32]

Actually, he advisors say you are abandoning he mages to become slaves if you say you should get the Templars to help you out in he Mage mission briefing

They never said it, they said the mages are already mobilizing to war, nothing about slavery.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

 ppppthhh.  The dwarves have a society that more resembles the drow than anything else!

 

Thats even more awesome. Good is overrated. Now I need to go find us dwarves an almighty queen spider to worship.

[Iakus]

Spoiler

Well, Ameridan was kind of ridiculous, following two religions that, well let's be honest, don't mix at all.

 

Also, he never helped to creat the circle. He only hunted demons and blood mages. The circle was created after his disappearance. In fact, he was pretty appalled when he heard what became of the Seeker order.

 

Spoiler

It may have mixed better in the past.  Before verses such as the Canticle of Shartan were considered Dissonant

 

And it was Drakon who helped create the Circles.  "He" was appalled at the Rite of Tranquility being used to control mages.

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

They never said it, they said the mages are already mobilizing to war, nothing about slavery.

Still, given that the rebel mages are essentially slaves to he Venatori, you are still told going to the Templars means completely abandoning the mages to their fate which is likely slavery given what you know at the time.

Also, a hostile enemy preparing for a a battle seems like an important concern. I dread to think what happens to the Mage children if you go to he Templars ?

[dragonflight288]

And how it invalidated what I said?

 

It didn't. I was trying to add on to what you said. 

[Boost32]

Still, given that the rebel mages are essentially slaves to he Venatori, you are still told going to the Templars means completely abandoning the mages to their fate which is likely slavery given what you know at the time.
Also, a hostile enemy preparing for a a battle seems like an important concern. I dread to think what happens to the Mage children if you go to he Templars ?

The mages choose to become indentured servants, they choose their fate.
And what happens to the templars apprentice s when you go to the mages? Templars have children too.

[dragonflight288]

It saddens me that all the pro-mages have against Vivienne is that she is not pro-mage enough and in the right way rather than the fact that she doesn enjoy lording her magic over others when she can get away with it.

 

Vivienne walks a fine line between respectful mage authority and Magister.

 

I'm not opposed to Vivienne per se, so much as I'm opposed to the elitist attitude she has and how she treats others if they don't benefit her personally. 

 

She makes a lot of good points on mages, especially on the realities of how mages are perceived. One can agree with her points while disagreeing with her on how to address them. 

 

She is a creature of politics. She lives it and breathes it. She is also an player of the Orlesian game. We know in banter with Cole that she manipulated the Marquis to attack the Inquisitor so she could show off and disgrace him, and then used the opportunity to let the Inquisitor decide his fate and thought nothing of killing him. 

 

Cassandra will grunt in disgust at all the double-dealing, bribery and corruption during Celene's ball, and Vivienne willy justify it as "the game." She's just as much a part of it as any noble. 

 

Mages are segregated because of the potential to abuse their magical powers, but politicians regularly abuse their own power, no magic involved, and it can ruin the lives of hundreds of people and get people killed in the crossfire. We see this with Sera, and that's what she opposes. She stands with the people caught in the middle of politics or mages and templars or whoever. Vivienne is a person who is not above using political power, manipulating others for her own purposes and advancing her station. Yet she is also a mage. 

 

She has both magical and political power. Add in her ambition and her willingness to do anything, politically speaking, to advance herself and I am actually kind of surprised that more people are not more wary of her than are apparent. 

[dragonflight288]

I love Viviene, a mage as Divine is a brilliant idea, and if a few wars need to be fought for that then so be it. I've always found Viviene views on the circle rational and the rebellion without a clear goal. What exactly was the endgame for the rebellion? Arguing the templars need to be less abusive with their charges is one thing, dissolving the whole institution of the circles is an entire different matter.

 

And what of the long-term? The Divine after her? If it's also a mage, but not one who shares her views? 

 

Vivienne becoming Divine sets a precedent. I'm not opposed to mages getting more freedoms, but I also think we must be careful on how we progress. Both Dorian and Fenris talk about Tevinter and how it was whittled down when they accepted the Chantry, but slowly, inch by inch, made their way back, and now you can barely tell them apart from the Tevinter of Andraste's time. 

[Steelcan]

Loving this thread still

[Xilizhra]

The mages choose to become indentured servants, they choose their fate.
And what happens to the templars apprentice s when you go to the mages? Templars have children too.

Pretty sure that Envy's plan didn't include trying to turn children into red templars. Waste of red lyrium. That would also assume that the templars would have impressed all of their own underage trainees into the war... which I suppose, as atrocities go, is par for the course.

[dragonflight288]

The mages choose to become indentured servants, they choose their fate.
And what happens to the templars apprentice s when you go to the mages? Templars have children too.

 

The templars chose to follow an envy demon and thought it was a good idea to kill any recruit or regular who questioned their orders while the head of the order meant to keep the templars in line knowingly allowed it while he went about trying to destroy all the seekers. 

 

They chose their fate just as much as the mages.

 

Neither is better than the other.

[AresKeith]

The templars chose to follow an envy demon and thought it was a good idea to kill any recruit or regular who questioned their orders while the head of the order meant to keep the templars in line knowingly allowed it while he went about trying to destroy all the seekers. 

 

They chose their fate just as much as the mages.

 

Neither is better than the other.

 

If only other people would know this

[thesuperdarkone2]

The mages choose to become indentured servants, they choose their fate.
And what happens to the templars apprentice s when you go to the mages? Templars have children too.

Ah, so if the adults make a decision, the children also deserve death or enslavement? Good to know templar supporters are still the same. Also, give me proof where there are any children in the templars. Everything we've seen suggests templars are at least 18 years old.

[dragonflight288]

Ah, so if the adults make a decision, the children also deserve death or enslavement? Good to know templar supporters are still the same. Also, give me proof where there are any children in the templars. Everything we've seen suggests templars are at least 18 years old.

 

Not exactly true. Alistair was sent to the Chantry at age 10 where the choice to be a templar was one made for him.

 

And Cullen points out that some children (orphans taken to the Chantry most likely) are promised to the order as infants. 

 

The children in the order would be in the chantry or monastery or wherever they raise them, not in armor and in the field or the circle's. 

[Boost32]

The templars chose to follow an envy demon and thought it was a good idea to kill any recruit or regular who questioned their orders while the head of the order meant to keep the templars in line knowingly allowed it while he went about trying to destroy all the seekers.

They chose their fate just as much as the mages.

Neither is better than the other.

The head of the templars who werent sent do the conclave choose too follow Corypheus and they derserve their fate, the ones who were sent to the Conclave or the rank and file didn't, they don't derserve to die or becoming red templars.

Ah, so if the adults make a decision, the children also deserve death or enslavement? Good to know templar supporters are still the same. Also, give me proof where there are any children in the templars. Everything we've seen suggests templars are at least 18 years old.

The children don't, but the adults who did nothing derserve it.

Alistair was sent at the age of 10, Cullen at age of 13, Barris at age of 11. They all begin their training as a child.

[Addai]

Actually, he advisors say you are abandoning he mages to become slaves if you say you should get the Templars to help you out in he Mage mission briefing

I think that's Dorian.