265 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

The templars chose to follow an envy demon and thought it was a good idea to kill any recruit or regular who questioned their orders while the head of the order meant to keep the templars in line knowingly allowed it while he went about trying to destroy all the seekers. 
 
They chose their fate just as much as the mages.
 
Neither is better than the other.

to be fair, the majority of templars were tricked or killed

[Incantrix]

As a mage supporter, I do acknowledge that she makes VERY valid points. However, sometimes her points can be a tad flawed. 

[The Baconer]

to be fair, the majority of templars were tricked or killed

 

To be more fair, that did happen after they followed the commands of a dude who had a Chantry mother punched, and then announced "F*** protecting the people. We're partying down at Therinfal!".

[AresKeith]

To be more fair, that did happen after they followed the commands of a dude who had a Chantry mother punched, and then announced "F*** protecting the people. We're partying down at Therinfal!".

 

She was being a douche tho

[The Baconer]

She was being a douche tho

 

Certainly not to the Templars, though.

[AresKeith]

Certainly not to the Templars, though.

 

Karma

[dragonflight288]

to be fair, the majority of templars were tricked or killed

 

And the majority of mages had no choice once the tevinters showed up. The tranquil were killed in large numbers and its implied when Dorian comes to warn you at Haven that mages that tried to escape were killed. 

 

All in the name of fairness.

 

The majority of both sides got the short end of the stick and the leaders of both sides pretty much eliminated all choice for the average templar or mage.

[Iakus]

To be more fair, that did happen after they followed the commands of a dude who had a Chantry mother punched, and then announced "F*** protecting the people. We're partying down at Therinfal!".

I'm reasonably certain there's more than a few Inquisitors who would have punched her if he hadn't gotten to her first

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

I think that's Dorian.

Choose ' let's get the Templars' during he Mage mission briefing

[leaguer of one]

I don't agree with Vivienne. She judges others that are far more oppressed from a position of privilege. I understand her position, but that's just not how revolutions work - they don't wait for the "best" opportunity to start. To the oppressed, the status quo is an ongoing wrong just waiting to justify itself, and then reinforce its position. Its just the way institutions are. It doesn't matter how nice the mages behave, or how helpful they are, the majority is just waiting for one crazy mage to justify the oppression of all mages. The circles were always going to rebel, and when they did the Templars would not stand for it, and it was going to be bad.

...except she's not talking from a point of privilege when she's talking about magic.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Speaking of the Tevinter Imperium, I certainly hope that Dorian somehow manages to influence his people back home and can eventually clean up the corruption within the Magisterium. If he needs any backing, my mage-quisitor would be happy to lend her not inconsiderable power and influence to make it happen.

 

I hope there is more hope for Tevinter than just Dorian. He does not have the guile or the stones to bring meaningful change to Tevinter on his own accord.

 

He is no Vivienne, in other words.

 

Calpurnia is a better bet, if you ask me. Hell, so could be Feynriel.

[Steelcan]

Choose ' let's get the Templars' during he Mage mission briefing

they don't say they'll be enslaved

[congokong]

It's a tough situation. Vivienne, being the ever so practical type, might think rebelling right after Kirkwall's chaos would put mage freedom in an even more negative light. However, if mages fervently believe they are being given an injustice, should they be expected to endure it for some extended period of time because of political ramifications?

[Vit246]

It's a tough situation. Vivienne, being the ever so practical type, might think rebelling right after Kirkwall's chaos would put mage freedom in an even more negative light. However, if mages fervently believe they are being given an injustice, should they be expected to endure it for some extended period of time because of political ramifications?

 

As if mages should feel some obligation to accept a collective guilt by association all because of an apostate. Not to mention how after Kirkwall, the Templars started cracking down even harder on mages in the stupidity that they would just stop revolting, accept their fate, and bend over to get frakked. And don't forget about the massacre of the Rivain mages. 

[Digger1967]

She said how the mages rebelling at this time was a horrible idea given what just happened. Saying it made them look like they support what anders did. I still agree with the mages that they should be free but she brings up a really good point. Anyone else catch this

 

Well haven't read through the whole thread yet so someone else may have mentioned this, but the mage rebellion began before the explosion at the conclave and the opening of the breech.  Now she may have a minor point that given the explosion and the breech, etc - that it probably would be more responsible for them to come to terms and deal with the breech but once something like a rebellion gets started it's pretty hard to stop.  The sheer inertia of it can be overwhelming.

 

As for me I think I liken the whole mage/circle thing to being fairly close to the internment camps for the Japanese during WWII.  People were more or less imprisoned because they might possibly be a threat.  They had their liberties abridged not because of anything they ha actually done, but rather because of the fear of what they might possibly do.

 

I'm not really a big supporter of that notion myself, and frankly from what I've seen the whole circle/templar system hasn't been too terribly effective in preventing abominations, blood magic, etc.  So obviously a new approach might not be such a bad idea.

[Carmen_Willow]

The problem is that it was too much like a prison. Ideally, Mages should be taught to have the will to resist demons. They should be trained in that and trained to use their abilities to help them fight demons. After they pass that test (the one you do in the beginning of DAO as a mage) or maybe even before it, they should face off against demons. There seem to be enough of them. They should be trained to deal with them and see them and understand that this is the result. They need to see this to scare the wits out of them so they don't do blood magic.

 

The templars should be different as well. First, we know they don't need lyrium. Alistair proved that. So no more lyrium for them. Mages at some point should work side by side WITH templars. Templars should be the GUARDIANS of the mages not the forces that stand against them. They should understand that while there are blood mages, in part some do it out of curiosity or not really believing the dangers so they need to see the dangers which is why working together is important. It was the rare mage that saw abominations that was cool with it. It was as if they really didn't believe it could happen. Look at how the tower was in DAO. Mages were terrified and some had gone along with it but had no clue of the possible outcome. So it was like they were taught something the way a parent teaches a child something to scare the child but the child doesn't always believe it or they might at first but later view it as a lie. This is how it seemed to mages. Perfect example is Jowan. He really had no clue of the dangers. That's the impression I got. Mages need to see abominations and to fight them with templars and templars should be charged with teaching them this and working together with them as eventual allies. Templars should be guardians of mages. Mages are their charges. A few are bad but mostly they need to learn how to protect themselves because they are at risk due to their naivety, stubbornness, and general ignorance about the facts. They need to be treated as equals to not become steadfast in their naivety, stubbornness, and ignorance. They need to see what really happens. It should be a Templars duty to work WITH the mages to help them see what the reality is. I believe few mages would be willing to risk blood magic if they were sent along side of templars to hunt down abominations that were the result of blood magic. This is how the templars would be of most benefit, in prevention rather than clean up. There should be two types of templars though all should be trained in all aspects. One side would be the ones that are hunting blood mages and abomination and the other side should b those who are charged with protection and teaching mages to use their will as a form of protection the way templars do. Templars should have to serve as both but start as guardians so they don't begin with hatred for the mages. No templar should be hunting abominations constantly. They should rotate them so that only a short portion of their time as a templar would be in hunting mages and guardian templars should be called in as needed for support to aid the 'shock troops' so they will stay skilled at that and not become complacent as well as to minimize the need for a larger force of templars working as shock troops at any given time.

 

The whole system becomes utterly fracked the minute it's them/us. It needs to be US across the board. An alliance of sorts where mages learn quickly why this is needed during their formative years. After that, they have more liberties and freedoms so it's less restrictive but still some sort of basic oversight.

 

Probably too ideal but what they have now is just a mess pitting two factions against each other - one with power, the other not. That never works well except in a TRUE prison and even then, not always. If Cullen of all people can modify his views to not hate mages and work with them as necessary then anyone can (except perhaps the most narrow minded who would be unfit to be templars and should never be allowed to be templars).

I'd vote for you as the Divine.