265 réponses à ce sujet

[Milan92]

 

Siding with Templars/Chantry makes you condone slavery, brainwashing, nazism, evil, kidnapping, rape, police states, and mass murder.

 

[MacroN0va]

Vivienne comes across as either naive or ignorant, because while she believes the structure that circles offer is important, she also believes in a level of freedom for mages that she was able to enjoy but that we've never seen in practice in a circle before. I certainly never got the impression that mages in the Ferelden circle tower were free to come and go, and of course Kirkwall was especially strict. 

[Tevinter Soldier]

Does anyone else see the dissonance between dismissing Vivienne's opinion because her experiences in the system were positive, and disagreeing with her on the basis of some mages having had negative experiences in it -- why is it that one counts, but the other doesn't? Seems to me that the "skew" people speak of exists on both sides. However, Vivienne does say very clearly that not every Circle functions perfectly (singling out Kirkwall in particular), but that that can be said of life anywhere in Thedas.

 

and the issue is the idea that everyone should just suck it up if treated badly. she makes the point of oh anyone can leave at any time they just need a note from mommy. when its been stated several occasions even in DA:I that isn't how it worked for many of them.

 

she makes the point of life being **** elsewhere, so magi need to tough it out.

should the elves suck up living in alienage?

should slaves in tevinter not want to be consider people not property?

should people never try to leave the Qun?

 

any person who's abused or mistreated has the inalienable right to take action to put an end to it. using other peoples mistreatment and oppression to justify another's oppression is not an argument.

[Chari]

Vivienne has something many mages don't - common sense and logical thinking as well as the understanding of the outer world

Vivienne for the Divine

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Vivienne comes across as either naive or ignorant, because while she believes the structure that circles offer is important, she also believes in a level of freedom for mages that she was able to enjoy but that we've never seen in practice in a circle before.

 

Perhaps that is why she granted mages greater freedoms after becoming the Divine. 

 

and the issue is the idea that everyone should just suck it up if treated badly. she makes the point of oh anyone can leave at any time they just need a note from mommy. when its been stated several occasions even in DA:I that isn't how it worked for many of them.

 

she makes the point of life being **** elsewhere, so magi need to tough it out.

should the elves suck up living in alienage?

should slaves in tevinter not want to be consider people not property?

should people never try to leave the Qun?

 

any person who's abused or mistreated has the inalienable right to take action to put an end to it. using other peoples mistreatment and oppression to justify another's oppression is not an argument.

 

... which is fair, except the solution does not require throwing out the baby with the bathwater (the Circles/Templars being the baby).

 

In the Circle, mages have free room-and-board along with their own personal bodyguards, luxuries that most people outside the Circle (whom some mages would idealize as being "freer" than themselves) do not have. It is understandable that the mages did not appreciate the greater scrutiny after Kirkwall (thanks, Anders), but they should really think twice about breaking free completely before they realize how much they took for granted. If the issues are restrictions and the conduct of a few bad apples among the Templars, then protest those things, not the whole Circle itself and all Templars.

[Taleroth]

Yeah, they should have just let the Templars murder them. Y'know, to make a point.

[Tevinter Soldier]

Perhaps that is why she granted mages greater freedoms after becoming the Divine. 

 

 

... which is fair, except the solution does not require throwing out the baby with the bathwater (the Circles/Templars being the baby).

 

In the Circle, mages have free room-and-board along with their own personal bodyguards, luxuries that most people outside the Circle (whom some mages would idealize as being "freer" than themselves) do not have. It is understandable that the mages did not appreciate the greater scrutiny after Kirkwall (thanks, Anders), but they should really think twice about breaking free completely before they realize how much they took for granted. If the issues are restrictions and the conduct of a few bad apples among the Templars, then protest those things, not the whole Circle itself and all Templars.

 

they protested them for 1000 years, revolutions are generally not the most well thought out ideas people literally say enough is enough and walk away. which is why the vast majority of them are brutally crushed.

 

what people miss and what viv miss is that she was not the victim of said abuse. the fact is even cullen admits **** went to far, how long exactly were they supposed to wait until they were listened to? how many raped? how many dead? how many falsely made tranquil?

 

When was change coming? in the end even Divine Justina saw that not even she could enact changes in the end she supported the mages saying **** it. because as long as the system remained in place the suffering and abuse would continue.

 

It's easy to say be patient when it isn't happening to you.

[Pasquale1234]

Vivienne comes across as either naive or ignorant, because while she believes the structure that circles offer is important, she also believes in a level of freedom for mages that she was able to enjoy but that we've never seen in practice in a circle before. I certainly never got the impression that mages in the Ferelden circle tower were free to come and go, and of course Kirkwall was especially strict.

Ferelden circle mages seemed to have some privileges. A few examples:
1. Wynne got permission - from the senior enchanter, no less - to join the Warden's party.
2. At the end of DA:O, Wynne made other plans that did not involve returning to the circle.
3. In DAA, we bump into Wynne in Amaranthine, en route to a mage meeting (in Cumberland IIRC).
4. A DAA quest has us searching for a mage (Iola?) who is out in the forest pursuing her hobby.

[Br3admax]

Banter makes it pretty clear mages could leave the Circle if they're proven powerful and responsible enough. It's not just a Ferelden thing.

[EmissaryofLies]

Vivienne's opinions about the rebellion have only strengthened my own. I can see right through her; she only likes "order" when she's the one who controls it.

.

I can agree with the circles being restored so long as permanent internment is off the table for the appropriate parties. Deciding what appropriate means is the matter of another thread. But either way I do not trust anything devoutly Andrastian to run them.

[Taleroth]

So we're all in agreement.

 

It's Elthina's fault.

[Br3admax]

When was that ever in question?

[MacroN0va]

Perhaps that is why she granted mages greater freedoms after becoming the Divine. 

 

Um, is that a spoiler?

[Taleroth]

I don't really understand the circle system. And I think that's because the first game tried so hard to be dark that once we have the opportunity to question it in later installments, you're dang skippy that we're going to. Mages have to undergo the Harrowing where they might die. Wardens have to undergo the Joining where they might die. People who touch Darkspawn will die. If you kill the Archdemon, you'll die. Abominations will destroy whole towns if you don't keep them under control!

 

If Mages are so susceptible to abominations, then why introduce them to a freaking Pride demon at all? Will the Templars really be able to stop it? If Templars can defeat mages and abominations, why are these techniques secret? If this is such a big problem, why aren't the Dalish worried about it? Why hasn't Tevinter exploded a billion times already?

[Br3admax]

I don't really understand the circle system. 

I wonder if BioWare actually does at this point.

If Mages are so susceptible to abominations, then why introduce them to a freaking Pride demon at all? 

I doubt the Templars summoned that demon, it's likely the rage one was the test they wanted, but as the Warden is more powerful than most, a pride demon was drawn to them.

Will the Templars really be able to stop it? If Templars can defeat mages and abominations, why are these techniques secret? 

They kill the mage while possession is happening. They certainly would have trouble doing it after. I don't understand what you mean by the second question. Why the Harrowing is secret? I guess it's because no one's ever warned when this happens naturally during spell casting or sleeping, so it won't be now.

If this is such a big problem, why aren't the Dalish worried about it? 

They are. You learn in DA:I at least a significant portion of Dalish clans

Spoiler

Either give their extra mage children a pack of food and leave them in the woods alone or kill them outright.

Everyone's worried about magic.

Why hasn't Tevinter exploded a billion times already?

I don't think we know enough about Tevinter to comment on this. Abominations aren't less prevalent there from anything I've heard. They also have Templars and Circles.

[o Ventus]

I think Vivienne did have some valid arguments but I think she was also wrong on a lot of arguments as well.

More wrong than right, IMO.

 

By a pretty wide margin.

[Taleroth]

They kill the mage while possession is happening. They certainly would have trouble doing it after.

Like Cullen says, can they be certain when the Mage is possessed? How would they really know? They clearly didn't know about Uldred until it was too late.
 

I don't understand what you mean by the second question. Why the Harrowing is secret?

Why are the Templar abilities a secret? Why doesn't every Kingdom know how to create Templars and have them serve as city guards? Even with a circle, they'd be helpful in dealing with unknown apostates. A knight under Arl Eamon trained as a Templar would have been able to stop Conner, or at least try.

I have this same issue with Wardens, actually.

[Xilizhra]

They are. You learn in DA:I at least a significant portion of Dalish clans

Spoiler

Either give their extra mage children a pack of food and leave them in the woods alone or kill them outright.

If by "a significant portion" you mean "one."

[KingAgamemnon]

I ended up agreeing with a lot of what Vivienne said regarding the Circle and mages in general - maybe not to her level of extremes, but keeping them under control seems like the best way to handle it to me. Obviously being as heavy-handed as the Templars we've seen isn't good, but the Templars clearly fill a vital role in a world where places like Tevinter happen. Still, I rarely used her because she was such a colossal b**** all the time. And especially to Cole! Poor Cole. I just wanted to hug him every time Viv said something nasty and he tried to make her feel better. D'awww.

[Cyberpunk]

It doesn't make sense. Not supporting something you believe is right just because other people may think you are evil isn't a good reason. The mages are hard pressed and they had to make an urgent choice. It was either rebel or give in. They chose to rebel and they had to decide quickly. Time was of the essence and if they took too long, the templars would have closed in. 

[Vit246]

Really OP? Thats all it took to change your mind? The bad timing? Waiting for a better opportunity? Haven't centuries been enough?

I am reminded of a Martin Luther King quote that might be kinda appropriate:

 

"We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was "well timed" in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every ****** with piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant "Never." We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that "justice too long delayed is justice denied."

 

*EDIT*

If I could say this to Vivienne I would. I might also argue that the timing could not be helped because the Kirkwall Rebellion happened when a Templar declared Exterminatus on a entire mage circle for the actions of an apostate and since then Templars everywhere in Thedas have been cracking down on all mage circles even harder than before. Anulling the Rivain Circle? The Chantry disbanding the fraternities and disrupting votes? How much more must they take?

[EmissaryofLies]

I f*cking love that letter.

[Br3admax]

Like Cullen says, can they be certain when the Mage is possessed? How would they really know? They clearly didn't know about Uldred until it was too late.

 

It's pretty obvious when possession happens. There's a picture on the wiki from WoT, but even without that, in game it's pretty violent. Uldred wasn't possessed when he summoned the other demons. He and his colleagues were overwhelmed by the ones he did, and everyone saw him become possessed.

 

 

 
Why are the Templar abilities a secret? Why doesn't every Kingdom know how to create Templars and have them serve as city guards? Even with a circle, they'd be helpful in dealing with unknown apostates. A knight under Arl Eamon trained as a Templar would have been able to stop Conner, or at least try.

I have this same issue with Wardens, actually.

Templar abilities aren't secret, the Chantry just controls the lyrium trade. The Seekers of Truth taught these abilities to the Chantry as per the Nevarran Accord. Lyrium is needed for these abilities, and considering the only ones that know the skills are a part of the Chantry, it's exclusively there. 

 

As for the Wardens,

Spoiler

they're secret because of the reaction they may receive, although in DA:I, the Wardens start infighting to change this.

 

If by "a significant portion" you mean "one."

When two sources, one first hand, treat it as normalcy, it is significant, whether you like it or not. 

[Iakus]

I support mage freedom as well but I also feel there should be circles but instead of a prison, make the circles into an academy. Mages need a safe place to harness their gifts and they should also be allowed to see their families. Putting all those crazy restrictions and rules on em is what led to all this. Viv has sense but she's a ****** lol

That was actually the original intenton of the Circles under the Nevarran Accords, interestingly enough.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

they protested them for 1000 years, revolutions are generally not the most well thought out ideas people literally say enough is enough and walk away. which is why the vast majority of them are brutally crushed.

Oh, they were? I ... couldn't tell. =|
 

what people miss and what viv miss is that she was not the victim of said abuse. the fact is even cullen admits **** went to far, how long exactly were they supposed to wait until they were listened to? how many raped? how many dead? how many falsely made tranquil?

 

Actually, she did not miss that, she acknowledged it very clearly. As do I. If anything, it seems to me that some people are more hung up on these negative occurrences that they fail to (or maybe refuse to) realize what good the system does nonetheless. Call it negativity-bias.
 

When was change coming? in the end even Divine Justina saw that not even she could enact changes in the end she supported the mages saying **** it. because as long as the system remained in place the suffering and abuse would continue.
 
It's easy to say be patient when it isn't happening to you.

 

Did she? 'Cause I'm pretty sure that was all just in Leliana's head, seeing as it contradicts what we know to be true: that she called the Conclave to find a peaceful solution to the mage/Templar issue.

 

Truth of the matter is that not many mages were asking for change until very recently, so it was not an issue that demanded attention before.

 

Um, is that a spoiler?

 
Yes; my apologies.
 
Then again, this is a spoiler section of the forum, so... *does balancing-gesture with both hands*