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not a big fan of vivenne but something she said changed my mind about the rebellion


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#76
ryno113

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(and as some have pointed out, a responsible and proven mage is allowed to leave the circles without repercussions) the rite of tranquil and annullment are only done as last resorts.

 

I think it has also been said to depend on the circle, Kirkwalls being one of the worst. I would envision given Viviennes noble standing her treatment at the circle would vary greatly from someone coming in from ground level and given her personality in the game I doubt she cares for anyone on the ground level.

 

Some circles are great, some are awful. It just so happened there were slightly more mages that believed they were coming from these awful circles than great ones which meant that eventually all mages were apostates. The circles needed reform if the majority of mages felt like that, the rebellion came at the wrong time but there was going to be some sort of event regardless given the way a large majority felt in the games.



#77
Farangbaa

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Did you do the war table mission to support her?

 

If not then, her chances of becoming Divine are low.

 

I didn't do anything involving choosing the Divine (at least.. not that I remember...) and Vivienne got elected.



#78
Taleroth

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It's pretty obvious when possession happens. There's a picture on the wiki from WoT, but even without that, in game it's pretty violent. Uldred wasn't possessed when he summoned the other demons. He and his colleagues were overwhelmed by the ones he did, and everyone saw him become possessed.

He was possessed long before he transformed. Conner was possessed too. Wynne is possessed in Dragon Age: Origins. Anders was possessed throughout Dragon Age 2.

Not everyone spontaneously turns into a horror. That's usually the less intelligent ones that lack control or the more powerful ones when they need to the extra power it allows.
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#79
Tevinter Soldier

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I think you're equivocating the term "restrictions" with "oppression" the Mages were hardly slaves nor abused, they were only given restrictions and regulations given the potent nature of their gift (and as some have pointed out, a responsible and proven mage is allowed to leave the circles without repercussions) the rite of tranquil and annullment are only done as last resorts.

 

right the whole murdered raped turn tranquil without cause and forced to live in confinement unless their lucky enough to live in a circle that wasn't completely corrupt and that is what you all fail once again to acknowledge, just by pass all the bad **** that happened because some circles weren't in the business of rape and mutilation and murder.

 

just stop i've said it before i'll say it again read up on systematic oppression is read it learn it understand it and get back to me. If you don't understand just admit it and move on. the entire circle system is an example of systematic oppression, if you can't admit there's no point debating it.


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#80
celebrei

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I think it has also been said to depend on the circle, Kirkwalls being one of the worst. I would envision given Viviennes noble standing her treatment at the circle would vary greatly from someone coming in from ground level and given her personality in the game I doubt she cares for anyone on the ground level.

Some circles are great, some are awful. It just so happened there were slightly more mages that believed they were coming from these awful circles than great ones which meant that eventually all mages were apostates. The circles needed reform if the majority of mages felt like that, the rebellion came at the wrong time but there was going to be some sort of event regardless given the way a large majority felt in the games.

It's true the the Circles, Chantry and Templar policies needed reform, but Fiona and her Liberal allies rash actions only lead to further violence & bloodshed ending with them going so far as to sell themselves to Tevinter. The poor results of the Mage Rebellion only validates Viviene's PoV more.

#81
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The problem is that it was too much like a prison. Ideally, Mages should be taught to have the will to resist demons. They should be trained in that and trained to use their abilities to help them fight demons. After they pass that test (the one you do in the beginning of DAO as a mage) or maybe even before it, they should face off against demons. There seem to be enough of them. They should be trained to deal with them and see them and understand that this is the result. They need to see this to scare the wits out of them so they don't do blood magic.

 

The templars should be different as well. First, we know they don't need lyrium. Alistair proved that. So no more lyrium for them. Mages at some point should work side by side WITH templars. Templars should be the GUARDIANS of the mages not the forces that stand against them. They should understand that while there are blood mages, in part some do it out of curiosity or not really believing the dangers so they need to see the dangers which is why working together is important. It was the rare mage that saw abominations that was cool with it. It was as if they really didn't believe it could happen. Look at how the tower was in DAO. Mages were terrified and some had gone along with it but had no clue of the possible outcome. So it was like they were taught something the way a parent teaches a child something to scare the child but the child doesn't always believe it or they might at first but later view it as a lie. This is how it seemed to mages. Perfect example is Jowan. He really had no clue of the dangers. That's the impression I got. Mages need to see abominations and to fight them with templars and templars should be charged with teaching them this and working together with them as eventual allies. Templars should be guardians of mages. Mages are their charges. A few are bad but mostly they need to learn how to protect themselves because they are at risk due to their naivety, stubbornness, and general ignorance about the facts. They need to be treated as equals to not become steadfast in their naivety, stubbornness, and ignorance. They need to see what really happens. It should be a Templars duty to work WITH the mages to help them see what the reality is. I believe few mages would be willing to risk blood magic if they were sent along side of templars to hunt down abominations that were the result of blood magic. This is how the templars would be of most benefit, in prevention rather than clean up. There should be two types of templars though all should be trained in all aspects. One side would be the ones that are hunting blood mages and abomination and the other side should b those who are charged with protection and teaching mages to use their will as a form of protection the way templars do. Templars should have to serve as both but start as guardians so they don't begin with hatred for the mages. No templar should be hunting abominations constantly. They should rotate them so that only a short portion of their time as a templar would be in hunting mages and guardian templars should be called in as needed for support to aid the 'shock troops' so they will stay skilled at that and not become complacent as well as to minimize the need for a larger force of templars working as shock troops at any given time.

 

The whole system becomes utterly fracked the minute it's them/us. It needs to be US across the board. An alliance of sorts where mages learn quickly why this is needed during their formative years. After that, they have more liberties and freedoms so it's less restrictive but still some sort of basic oversight.

 

Probably too ideal but what they have now is just a mess pitting two factions against each other - one with power, the other not. That never works well except in a TRUE prison and even then, not always. If Cullen of all people can modify his views to not hate mages and work with them as necessary then anyone can (except perhaps the most narrow minded who would be unfit to be templars and should never be allowed to be templars).


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#82
celebrei

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right the whole murdered raped turn tranquil without cause and forced to live in confinement unless their lucky enough to live in a circle that wasn't completely corrupt and that is what you all fail once again to acknowledge, just by pass all the bad **** that happened because some circles weren't in the business of rape and mutilation and murder.
 
just stop i've said it before i'll say it again read up on systematic oppression is read it learn it understand it and get back to me. If you don't understand just admit it and move on. the entire circle system is an example of systematic oppression, if you can't admit there's no point debating it.


No society is perfect, there will always be inequality in an ideally egalitarian society, some of those in power will tend to abuse that power while some will use it fairly and properly, if the system has corruption you reform the system not overthrow it. What the Mage Rebellion did was not only detrimental to the welfare of Thedas' society but of their own as well.

#83
ryno113

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It's true the the Circles, Chantry and Templar policies needed reform, but Fiona and her Liberal allies rash actions only lead to further violence & bloodshed ending with them going so far as to sell themselves to Tevinter. The poor results of the Mage Rebellion only validates Viviene's PoV more.

 

I don't think Viviennes POV is ever valid. Her experiences apply to a very specific section of this world, noble, wealthy powerful mage, who has never been on the ground level and admittedly does not care about anyone on the ground level unless they can help her consolidate power/position for her. She is a master at 'the game' if it suited her to support the apostates and would've helped her gain position she would've supported the mages regardless of her personal viewpoint.

 

Outside of the timing had the Templars left the mages to their own devices (and not gone to war) either the mages would've imploded and the Templars would've gone, see, now you need us or they would've been successful and there would have essentially been no need for the Templars, I think Templars were fighting just as much to ensure they still exist/tradition as they were for the reformation of the circles.

 

The point is I guess if just over half the mages felt the need to leave the circle then it is the chantry/seekers/templars take your pick for not listening to the mages that wanted change. I'm not talking about Fiona here, who to be frank is a bit of a numpty just to be clear.



#84
herkles

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question, in the circles mages have many things that commoners in thedas don't get, ie free food, free learning, good beds, hot baths. Now that they are going to be equals, should they give some of that up to be on the same level as the average person in thedas? perhaps they have to work for money to buy their food/beds and their learning or mandatory community service for it?



#85
Xilizhra

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question, in the circles mages have many things that commoners in thedas don't get, ie free food, free learning, good beds, hot baths. Now that they are going to be equals, should they give some of that up to be on the same level as the average person in thedas? perhaps they have to work for money to buy their food/beds and their learning or mandatory community service for it?

I would say no, because the unfairness here is for the commoners; there's no point in slamming mages with the unfairness that commoners have to endure. I'd much rather give the commoners better lives and make things fair that way.



#86
sH0tgUn jUliA

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My rogue warden, Elizabeth, supported the mages and is Queen of Ferelden. Darya Hawke, also a rogue, supported the mages, but killed Anders, and now sails the seas with Isabela. And now my rogue Inquisitor, Samantha (lol), will have to determine how she will best benefit from all of this. She's a rogue after all. A thief. And at the moment still trying to figure out what is going on. She's stuck in the middle of everything. She's no bloody hero, but she knows she'll have to choose sides at some point. She knows everyone needs her right now. It'll just matter which side benefits her the most.

 

Now if that isn't spoken like a true rogue.



#87
PrinceLionheart

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My problem with the Mage Rebellion, and why I actually do find myself agreeing with Vivienne, is that it's a Revolution with no actual endgame. It's a group of people banging their heads against the wall but they don't actually know what they're going to do after the wall crumbles.

 

 


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#88
Xilizhra

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My problem with the Mage Rebellion, and why I actually do find myself agreeing with Vivienne, is that it's a Revolution with no actual endgame. It's a group of people banging their heads against the wall but they don't actually know what they're going to do after the wall crumbles.

That would make sense in and of itself, but Vivienne still hates them even after joining the Inquisition.



#89
Hazegurl

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I think it has also been said to depend on the circle, Kirkwalls being one of the worst. I would envision given Viviennes noble standing her treatment at the circle would vary greatly from someone coming in from ground level and given her personality in the game I doubt she cares for anyone on the ground level.

 

Some circles are great, some are awful. It just so happened there were slightly more mages that believed they were coming from these awful circles than great ones which meant that eventually all mages were apostates. The circles needed reform if the majority of mages felt like that, the rebellion came at the wrong time but there was going to be some sort of event regardless given the way a large majority felt in the games.

Actually Fiona didn't even get a majority vote which means that most mages disagreed with her push for a rebellion.  As for Viv, she does care. She was heartbroken about learning what the mages at Redcliffe did to the tranquil, she loved the books and history from the circle and sought to recover them, she agreed that abuses should be protested. She just disagreed about the timing, and a rebellion was not needed.

 

Xil, Viv hates stupidity, not mages.



#90
Sir DeLoria

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Siding with Templars/Chantry makes you condone slavery, brainwashing, nazism, evil, kidnapping, rape, police states, and mass murder.


Because we're evil...

jv0Yy.gif

Except not. You're pretty much wrong on almost all points.
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#91
Xilizhra

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Actually Fiona didn't even get a majority vote which means that most mages disagreed with her push for a rebellion.  As for Viv, she does care. She was heartbroken about learning what the mages at Redcliffe did to the tranquil, she loved the books and history from the circle and sought to recover them, she agreed that abuses should be protested. She just disagreed about the timing, and a rebellion was not needed.

 

Xil, Viv hates stupidity, not mages.

She hates seeing mages be free. I did it and she hated me for it.



#92
Sir DeLoria

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right the whole murdered raped turn tranquil without cause and forced to live in confinement unless their lucky enough to live in a circle that wasn't completely corrupt and that is what you all fail once again to acknowledge, just by pass all the bad **** that happened because some circles weren't in the business of rape and mutilation and murder.
 
just stop i've said it before i'll say it again read up on systematic oppression is read it learn it understand it and get back to me. If you don't understand just admit it and move on. the entire circle system is an example of systematic oppression, if you can't admit there's no point debating it.


Tough luck, sucks being a mage.

There's tons of Tevinter fans here, in Tevinter you're pretty much screwed if you're a mundane, especially if you're born into slavery. In the rest of Thedas you're screwed if you're a mage.

Except that mages make up maybe 1% of the population.

It's not a great system, but I don't see a viable alternative.

#93
LOLandStuff

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The least she could do is try and help some circles. What's the point of being "Enchanter of the Imperial Court" if you're gonna be a snobbish fashionista looking down on everyone who don't share your views. It just makes her feel important being surrounded by luxury and nobles while the rest are miserable. She has power to actually try and help instead of keeping everything in place.

She just got lucky by meeting that noble, nothing more.



#94
PrinceLionheart

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That would make sense in and of itself, but Vivienne still hates them even after joining the Inquisition.

 

Nothing technically changes about them only that they have the Inquisition as their new protectors instead of Redcliffe. 



#95
Br3admax

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The least she could do is try and help some circles. What's the point of being "Enchanter of the Imperial Court" if you're gonna be a snobbish fashionista looking down on everyone who don't share your views. It just makes her feel important being surrounded by luxury and nobles while the rest are miserable.

She just got lucky by meeting that noble, nothing more.

She has Circles. Every mage that didn't join the rebellion stayed in Val Royeaux. 



#96
PrinceLionheart

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Tough luck, sucks being a mage.

There's tons of Tevinter fans here, in Tevinter you're pretty much screwed if you're a mundane, especially if you're born into slavery. In the rest of Thedas you're screwed if you're a mage.

Except that mages make up maybe 1% of the population.

It's not a great system, but I don't see a viable alternative.

 

The Qunari literally treat mages like dogs, the Elves abandon them if they have too many. Frankly, there is no perfect society in regards to this. I think people are project real life social injustices onto this a little too much.


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#97
Sir DeLoria

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The Qunari literally treat mages like dogs, the Elves abandon them if they have too many. Frankly, there is no perfect society in regards to this. I think people are project real life social injustices onto this a little too much.


Exactly.

Between those two I honestly have no doubt in mind that the Circles are by far the best option.

#98
TK514

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That would make sense in and of itself, but Vivienne still hates them even after joining the Inquisition.

They don't give her any reason to change her opinion.



#99
LOLandStuff

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She has Circles. Every mage that didn't join the rebellion stayed in Val Royeaux. 

 

Right, forgot about those.



#100
LOLandStuff

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They don't give her any reason to change her opinion.

 

I felt like reloading and going to the templars when I saw the mages attitude before and after they joined.