265 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumix19]

It saddens me that all the pro-mages have against Vivienne is that she is not pro-mage enough and in the right way rather than the fact that she doesn enjoy lording her magic over others when she can get away with it.

Vivienne walks a fine line between respectful mage authority and Magister.

I wouldn't make that generalization. I can dislike both aspects about her thank you. Also her ruthlessness grates by cheese too.

Personally, I think Vivenne has the most realistic outlook in the game.
 
"One cannot unlearn a primal fear. Like fire or heights, it is not about prejudice. It is about survival.
I care for the witch hunts that will come. I care for the angry mobs who string up mages on gibbets for the vultures.
I care that my stupid brethren will kill and be killed by frightened people defending their families from monsters.
I will stand in opposition to that, whatever you may do."
 
She is not the type of character that everyone will appreciate like, say, Sigrun, She can be unpleasant and condescending and she is ambitious.
But, end of the day, she understand the dangers of magic and she cares, not just about herself or mages but about normal, average Thedosians.

Except these days who's so afraid of heights or fire that they lock fire away or never get on a plane (except those with legitimate phobias of course)? Her reasoning is flawed, people fear dangerous things it's true but much less so when they understand it.

[Boost32]

Because he wouldn't have attacked without her "help"?
 
And kill or not, casting a spell on someone in a party might be looked down upon normally

So what? It still don't invalidated the fact that she would not be locked/tranquilized because the marquis was the agressor.

She Wouldnt because there are others cases were guests were attacked and the person who held the ball did the same thing. When a noble attacks Hawke at the wyvern hunt, Prosper ask him what he want to do with the offender, Hawke can say the noble needs to die, say to realease the guy or let Prosper do whatever he wants with the noble, those are the same opinions you have at Vivienne's ball.

[Xilizhra]

Personally, I think Vivenne has the most realistic outlook in the game.

 

"One cannot unlearn a primal fear. Like fire or heights, it is not about prejudice. It is about survival.

I care for the witch hunts that will come. I care for the angry mobs who string up mages on gibbets for the vultures.

I care that my stupid brethren will kill and be killed by frightened people defending their families from monsters.

I will stand in opposition to that, whatever you may do."

 

She is not the type of character that everyone will appreciate like, say, Sigrun, She can be unpleasant and condescending and she is ambitious.

But, end of the day, she understand the dangers of magic and she cares, not just about herself or mages but about normal, average Thedosians.

I don't think she really does care; she's far too dismissive of anyone who's not related to her plans when their issues come up.

In any case, unlearning said primal fear is exactly what happens in Leliana's ending, so there's that. Unless the fear isn't as primal as she thought.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

I love Viviene, a mage as Divine is a brilliant idea, and if a few wars need to be fought for that then so be it. I've always found Viviene views on the circle rational and the rebellion without a clear goal. What exactly was the endgame for the rebellion? Arguing the templars need to be less abusive with their charges is one thing, dissolving the whole institution of the circles is an entire different matter.

[Xilizhra]

I love Viviene, a mage as Divine is a brilliant idea, and if a few wars need to be fought for that then so be it.

A mage who cares about anyone besides herself or anything besides power, maybe.

[MisterJB]

I wouldn't make that generalization. I can dislike both aspects about her thank you. Also her ruthlessness grates by cheese too.


Except these days who's so afraid of heights or fire that they lock fire away or never get on a plane (except those with legitimate phobias of course)? Her reasoning is flawed, people fear dangerous things it's true but much less so when they understand it.

The fact that people understand that fire is hot is what lead to us not placing one's hands on it. That is survival, which she mentions.

Likewise, understanding magic will also not make anyone more willing to accept mages when the surest way of not being hurt by them is to be very, very far away.

 

So, basically, I understand heights. It's why I don't jump off a tall building.

Thedosians understand magic. It's why they don't want mages living near them without supervision.

[Boost32]

A mage who cares about anyone besides herself or anything besides power, maybe.

Thankfully, Vivienne fits both criteria.

[Lumix19]

The fact that people understand that fire is hot is what lead to us not placing one's hands on it. That is survival, which she mentions.
Likewise, understanding magic will also not make anyone more willing to accept mages when the surest way of not being hurt by them is to be very, very far away.
 
So, basically, I understand heights. It's why I don't jump off a tall building.
Thedosians understand magic. It's why they don't want mages living near them without supervision.

Sure, but why does it have to be Chantry supervision?

[Xilizhra]

The fact that people understand that fire is hot is what lead to us not placing one's hands on it. That is survival, which she mentions.

Likewise, understanding magic will also not make anyone more willing to accept mages when the surest way of not being hurt by them is to be very, very far away.

 

So, basically, I understand heights. It's why I don't jump off a tall building.

Thedosians understand magic. It's why they don't want mages living near them without supervision.

Except all the ones who are fine with it.

 

 

Thankfully, Vivienne fits both criteria.

Perhaps that was a slight exaggeration. But I don't trust Vivienne in the position at all. For a mage Divine specifically... well, maybe we can have one after Leliana. I consider Leliana too vital to want to replace her with anyone else.

[Boost32]

Sure, but why does it have to be Chantry supervision?

Because if you let it to the lord of the lands, he/she will use them against his enemy.

You can say the Chantry use them as a weapons too, but they are send to war against enemies of the mankind. If the elves, darkspawn or Qunari had won, the mages would be either dead or in a worse state, the only Exalted March that can be considered unjust was against Tevinter.

[trevelyan_shep]

Vivienne only looks out for herself. She could care less about anyone below her station.

[Lumix19]

Because if you let it to the lord of the lands, he/she will use them against his enemy.
You can say the Chantry use them as a weapons too, but they are send to war against enemies of the mankind. If the elves, darkspawn or Qunari had won, the mages would be either dead or in a worse state, the only Exalted March that can be considered unjust was against Tevinter.

Not strictly true. Justinia was set to use the Circle against Gaspard, not exactly an enemy of mankind. It's like Solas says, such power is tempting and people always find justifications for why their cause is worth it but not the causes of others. Such words are meaningless.

And even if the lords of the land have control over their mages at least it would even the playing field, rather than have one side with a monopoly on magic.

[Xilizhra]

Because if you let it to the lord of the lands, he/she will use them against his enemy.

You can say the Chantry use them as a weapons too, but they are send to war against enemies of the mankind. If the elves, darkspawn or Qunari had won, the mages would be either dead or in a worse state, the only Exalted March that can be considered unjust was against Tevinter.

And if the mages are an independent international organization, they won't be anyone's weapons. And if the Dalish had won that war, the mages would probably be free already; that March was absolutely unjust.

[SgtSteel91]

I love Viviene, a mage as Divine is a brilliant idea, and if a few wars need to be fought for that then so be it. I've always found Viviene views on the circle rational and the rebellion without a clear goal. What exactly was the endgame for the rebellion? Arguing the templars need to be less abusive with their charges is one thing, dissolving the whole institution of the circles is an entire different matter.

 

I'd say the Conclave was the endgame for the rebellion, getting the Chantry and world to see that the Circles were not helping Mages and sitting down with them to work out a new system.

[Iakus]

I don't think she really does care; she's far too dismissive of anyone who's not related to her plans when their issues come up.

In any case, unlearning said primal fear is exactly what happens in Leliana's ending, so there's that. Unless the fear isn't as primal as she thought.

She does not, however, blow them up in a gesture of defiance.  Like, say, Anders.  

[Xilizhra]

She does not, however, blow them up in a gesture of defiance.  Like, say, Anders.  

She would, in an instant, with no qualms, if it suited her plans.

[Iakus]

I love Viviene, a mage as Divine is a brilliant idea, and if a few wars need to be fought for that then so be it. I've always found Viviene views on the circle rational and the rebellion without a clear goal. What exactly was the endgame for the rebellion? Arguing the templars need to be less abusive with their charges is one thing, dissolving the whole institution of the circles is an entire different matter.

I'm not 100% convinced the Circle system will work as a long-term solution anymore.  As we've seen with both the Imperial and southern chantries, the Circles are prone to abuses, either by mages or Templars.  But Vivienne is right that some sort of system is needed to provide a check on magical abuses.  As well as threats against mages against fearful, superstitious muggles.

[Qun00]

All it took for me to calm her down was to train some people in templar abilities. I literally got back every bit of disapproval she gave for freeing the mages. She didn't ask for the templar order to be reinstated, only for some people who can deal with possessed/crazy mages to be around as a safety precaution. Seemed pretty reasonable to me.

Yeeaaah, not really.

I agreed with Vivienne when she proposed that idea but the approval I got from it was immediately negated when I told her mages should be free, which earned me another Greatly Disapproves and furniture rearrangement at Skyhold.

I'd wager you did a little more to fall in her good graces than you're letting on.

[Iakus]

She would, in an instant, with no qualms, if it suited her plans.

I think there'd be a whole lot more dead Orlesians if that were the case.  Orlais seems pretty okay with murder as long as there's no direct evidence saying you did it.

[SgtSteel91]

She does not, however, blow them up in a gesture of defiance.  Like, say, Anders.  

 

After seven years of trying to change things peacefully, having his efforts blown off, and seeing things get even worse with no one caring.

[Xilizhra]

I think there'd be a whole lot more dead Orlesians if that were the case.  Orlais seems pretty okay with murder as long as there's no direct evidence saying you did it.

I think that there are plenty of dead Orlesians by her hand, just quietly killed ones.

[Boost32]

Not strictly true. Justinia was set to use the Circle against Gaspard, not exactly an enemy of mankind. It's like Solas says, such power is tempting and people always find justifications for why their cause is worth it but not the causes of others. Such words are meaningless.
And even if the lords of the land have control over their mages at least it would even the playing field, rather than have one side with a monopoly on magic.

Justinia was a sh*t Divine, she was going to break the law of the Chantry, mages should not go to these kind of war and the Chantry is the most neutral (not completely ofc) n Thedas.

It would be a disaster. The veil becoming weaker and weak willed mages becoming abominations because they are afraid to die, so it wouldn't be better.

And if the mages are an independent international organization, they won't be anyone's weapons. And if the Dalish had won that war, the mages would probably be free already; that March was absolutely unjust.

If the Dalish had won the mages would be either dead or slaves, because, at the time, every mage at the Circle was human.
And the Exalted Match was unjust? The elves started the war , killing countless of humans and sacking Vsl Royeaux, how it was unjust?
If you said what happened to the elves after the war was unjust I would agree, but the Exalted March was justified.

[Xilizhra]

If the Dalish had won the mages would be either dead or slaves, because, at the time, every mage at the Circle was human.
And the Exalted Match was unjust? The elves started the war , killing countless of humans and sacking Vsl Royeaux, how it was unjust?
If you said what happened to the elves after the war was unjust I would agree, but the Exalted March was justified.

The Dalish have no interest in ruling humanity, they just wanted Orlais to stop being a threat. And the Exalted March was genocide, something that the Chantry should absolutely pay reparations for.

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

What is it with all the necro'd threads lately

[Boost32]

The Dalish have no interest in ruling humanity, they just wanted Orlais to stop being a threat. And the Exalted March was genocide, something that the Chantry should absolutely pay reparations for.

Ofc, thats why they killed countless of humans, started the war when they attacked Red Crosding and sacked Val Royeaux.