265 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

This notion that people are ignorant of magic and they just need to learn in other to adopt 21st century morality does not hold much water.

Sure, normal people have some ridiculous ideas of what magic does; if your cows are dying, chances are it was not the kid who recently came down with a bad case of mage, call the Templars, don't lynch him; but they are, for the most part, right.
Did mages dominate the continent and abuse normals for a thousand years? Yes, they did.
Can it happen again? Yes, it can.
Can mages kill with a flicker of the wrist? Yes, they can.
Can mages summon demons? Yes, they can.
Can they be possessed? Yes, they can.
Can mages control minds? Yes, they can.

People understand magic. That is precisely why they fear it and don't want mages around.

[Xilizhra]

Ofc, thats why they killed countless of humans, started the war when they attacked Red Crosding and sacked Val Royeaux.

The elves were trying to deal with an internal matter and Red Crossing's people started a riot against a few elves who were much better armed.

 

 

This notion that people are ignorant of magic and they just need to learn in other to adopt 21st century morality does not hold much water.

Sure, normal people have some ridiculous ideas of what magic does; if your cows are dying, chances are it was not the kid who recently came down with a bad case of mage, call the Templars, don't lynch him; but they are, for the most part, right.
Did mages dominate the continent and abuse normals for a thousand years? Yes, they did.
Can it happen again? Yes, it can.
Can mages kill with a flicker of the wrist? Yes, they can.
Can mages summon demons? Yes, they can.
Can they be possessed? Yes, they can.
Can mages control minds? Yes, they can.

People understand magic. That is precisely why they fear it and don't want mages around.

Magisters dominated the content and abused mundanes (and mages!) for a thousand years... then the Chantry and templars did it the other way around for almost another thousand. Also, the odds of it happening again are incredibly slim; Corypheus was pretty much Tevinter's last chance to conquer the continent again. Everything else is either vanishingly rare or not overly worse than what mundanes can do.

[MisterJB]

After seven years of trying to change things peacefully, having his efforts blown off, and seeing things get even worse with no one caring.

Peacefully? He was smuggling mages and killing any Templar who tried to stop him. He suggested killing Thrask in Act 1.

[Iakus]

The elves were trying to deal with an internal matter and Red Crossing's people started a riot against a few elves who were much better armed.

 

 

Magisters dominated the content and abused mundanes (and mages!) for a thousand years... then the Chantry and templars did it the other way around for almost another thousand. Also, the odds of it happening again are incredibly slim; Corypheus was pretty much Tevinter's last chance to conquer the continent again. Everything else is either vanishingly rare or not overly worse than what mundanes can do.

Doesn't Dorian have something to say about assuming all Tevinter mages are magisters?  

Not all Tevinter mages are magisters, but Tevinter is in fact a worst-case example of just how badly mages can abuse magic.  And Exhibit A in refuting the "That can't possibly happen" argument towards complete mage freedom.

[Iakus]

I think that there are plenty of dead Orlesians by her hand, just quietly killed ones.

"Are we allowing dreams into evidence now?" 

 

On a more serious note:  Vivienne has always been one to work "within the system"  She's far more a political animal than a killer.

[Xilizhra]

Doesn't Dorian have something to say about assuming all Tevinter mages are magisters?  

Not all Tevinter mages are magisters, but Tevinter is in fact a worst-case example of just how badly mages can abuse magic.  And Exhibit A in refuting the "That can't possibly happen" argument towards complete mage freedom.

Magisters were the ones in power and making policy. If we're talking about people who aren't policymakers doing horrible things because they've been told to, there are way more mundanes than mages in that position.

 

And Tevinter's cultural problems don't need magic.

 

 

"Are we allowing dreams into evidence now?" 

 

On a more serious note:  Vivienne has always been one to work "within the system"  She's far more a political animal than a killer.

The evidence is her utter callousness. And I'm sure she only kills people within the system, which Orlais has plenty of opportunity for.

[SgtSteel91]

Nobles can do as much damage to people as Mages, should we lock them up too?

[Boost32]

The elves were trying to deal with an internal matter and Red Crossing's people started a riot against a few elves who were much better armed.

Thats bullsh*t and you know it.
The Emeralds Knights were in Orlais, they invaded a foreign border, and when they saw a single woman coming at them, they shot her.
When the others villagers went to find her, they saw a elf holding her and killed him, and after that they were slaughtered by the Emerald Knights.

[Xilizhra]

Nobles can do as much damage to people as Mages, should we lock them up too?

Mathematically speaking, mages being nobles means that there are fewer dangerous people than if there were both mages and nobles.

[Boost32]

Nobles can do as much damage to people as Mages, should we lock them up too?

No they cant. Nobles cant unleash the Blight or create the werewolf curse.

[SgtSteel91]

No they cant. Nobles cant unleash the Blight or create the werewolf curse.

 

Nobles can have people killed at the snap of the finger and get into land wars with other Nobles, getting lower class people displaced or killed in the crossfire. The Civil War in Orlais was just as bad as the fighting between the Mages and Templars.

 

And the Blight and Werewolf curse were special kinds of magic that can't be recreated easily in this time.

[Iakus]

Magisters were the ones in power and making policy. If we're talking about people who aren't policymakers doing horrible things because they've been told to, there are way more mundanes than mages in that position.

 

And Tevinter's cultural problems don't need magic.

 

Statisticly, there are way more mundanes than mages.  So I guess that's true, from a certain point of view 

 

But you don't have to be a politician to commit human sacrifices or demon summonings.

 

Tevinter's cultural problems?  Are you saying Orlesian culture is better suited for mages in power?  The Free Marches?  Antiva?

[Iakus]

They can have people killed at the snap of the finger (deceit and murder is almost a national sport in Orlais) and get into land wars with other Nobles, getting lower class people displaced or killed in the crossfire. The Civil War in Orlais was just as bad as the fighting between the Mages and Templars.

 

And the Blight and Werewolf curse were special kinds of magic that can't be recreated easily in this time.

Interesting given the civil war involved entire armies going at it, while the mage rebellion involved considerably fewer people.

 

And the werewolf curse, at least, can be replicated.  In fact, it's only the fact that Witherfang wanted the curse ended that it didn't end up worse.

[Xilizhra]

Statisticly, there are way more mundanes than mages.  So I guess that's true, from a certain point of view 

 

But you don't have to be a politician to commit human sacrifices or demon summonings.

 

Tevinter's cultural problems?  Are you saying Orlesian culture is better suited for mages in power?  The Free Marches?  Antiva?

I think their cultures are complete **** for having anyone in power.

 

 

Interesting given the civil war involved entire armies going at it, while the mage rebellion involved considerably fewer people.

 

And the werewolf curse, at least, can be replicated.  In fact, it's only the fact that Witherfang wanted the curse ended that it didn't end up worse.

The mage rebellion also wasn't nearly as bad, with civilian casualties seemingly confined to the Hinterlands.

[Iakus]

I think their cultures are complete **** for having anyone in power.

 

And what would adding mages to the mix bring?  

 

The problem isn't magic as such, it's human nature in general.  People with power means people will be tempted to abuse power.  And magic is a very dangerous power.  Vivienne understands this.  It doesn't excuse abusing mages, but it does mean some kind of check is needed on that power, to protect both others and themselves.

[SgtSteel91]

Interesting given the civil war involved entire armies going at it, while the mage rebellion involved considerably fewer people.

 

And the werewolf curse, at least, can be replicated.  In fact, it's only the fact that Witherfang wanted the curse ended that it didn't end up worse.

 

Does it matter how many people are involved in a fight or how often the fight happens? Nobles seem to start more fights.

 

Would any Mage know how to replicate the curse? Seems like that curse is only known to the guy who started it.

[Xilizhra]

And what would adding mages to the mix bring?  

 

The problem isn't magic as such, it's human nature in general.  People with power means people will be tempted to abuse power.  And magic is a very dangerous power.  Vivienne understands this.  It doesn't excuse abusing mages, but it does mean some kind of check is needed on that power, to protect both others and themselves.

I don't want to bring anyone into the political system until it changes. That's why I support the College of Enchanters as an independent power structure.

[MisterJB]

Corypheus has caused more suffering than anh other person in history and if he had not been born a mage, none of it would have happened.

[SgtSteel91]

Corypheus has caused more suffering than anh other person in history and if he had not been born a mage, none of it would have happened.

 

So that means it's fine to treat every mage like some dangerous animal because of the actions of one guy?

[Xilizhra]

Corypheus has caused more suffering than anh other person in history and if he had not been born a mage, none of it would have happened.

A. Corypheus was just one of seven.

B. There's still no proof that darkspawn were created by the seven, especially since Corypheus didn't even seem to know what he was when he awakened, and did absolutely nothing to gather any darkspawn to him; neither he nor the Architect seems to be the type to hide in tunnels and snatch dwarven women when they passed to make broodmothers for the first darkspawn.

C. It would be the Maker's fault anyway, or, if the Maker doesn't exist, a completely unforeseen environmental hazard that no one could have predicted.

[Iakus]

Does it matter how many people are involved in a fight or how often the fight happens? Nobles seem to start more fights.

 

Would any Mage know how to replicate the curse? Seems like that curse is only known to the guy who started it.

 

A mage can destroy an entire village all by their lonesome.  A relatively small number of trained mages are practically an army unto themselves.  It gets worse if blood magic or abominations enter the mix.  So yeah how many can be a factor.  Mages are capable of far more destruction than random person with sword.  Or even several random people with swords.

 

And how did Zathrian learn it?  And there are far worse things possible with blood magic.

[Iakus]

So that means it's fine to treat every mage like some dangerous animal because of the actions of one guy?

No.  But every mage is potentially a threat.  Even to themselves.  That should never be forgotten.  

 

You can take a sword away from a soldier.  You can remove a politician from their office.  You can't take magic away from a mage.

[SgtSteel91]

No.  But every mage is potentially a threat.  Even to themselves.  That should never be forgotten.  

 

You can take a sword away from a soldier.  You can remove a politician from their office.  You can't take magic away from a mage.

 

I think that mindset, guilty until proven innocent or 'they're potentially a threat', creates more problems than it solves.

 

Instead, maybe people should remember that Mages are people first and should be helped and supported like an equal, not protected like they're a child.

[Iakus]

I think that mindset, guilty until proven innocent or 'they're potentially a threat', creates more problems than it solves.

 

Maybe.  But it is, sadly, a truth.  There is a long documented history of magical abuse in Thedas.  It is also a fact that mages can be possessed by demons against their will and even without their knowledge.

 

Magic is dangerous.  Not everyone is suited to wield it.  

[Boost32]

Nobles can have people killed at the snap of the finger and get into land wars with other Nobles, getting lower class people displaced or killed in the crossfire. The Civil War in Orlais was just as bad as the fighting between the Mages and Templars.
 
And the Blight and Werewolf curse were special kinds of magic that can't be recreated easily in this time.

The lasting affect of those 2 is way longer than any war and they were creates by mages, they may not be recreated but others dangerous magic can, like the Dragon attack at Val Royeaux, the Breach, Aurelian Titus almost controlled dragons too, all of those are recent magical events that no noble could ever achieve.